Skip to comments.Ten Neo-Confederate Myths
Posted on 03/10/2013 8:19:44 AM PDT by BroJoeK
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Funny, but I'm pretty sure that delis and pastrami aren't native Southern flora or fauna.
If they were flocking for grits and hamhocks you might have just grounds for complaint, but it looks to me like they're just reclaiming and enjoying their own contribution.
Oh, well. Southerners will do what we always do when confronted with Yankees who think they know it all. Well laugh at you and make fun of you behind your backs.
And they laugh at you behind your backs, so I guess everybody's even.
I do have to wonder if the Yankees aren't a scapegoat. Maybe upcountry and downcountry would get on each other's nerves a lot more if there weren't convenient newcomers to blame.
Those are total casualty numbers.
Killed in action on June 10, 1861 were 18 Federals and one Confederate -- Private Henry L. Wyatt of the 1st North Carolina Volunteers.
This first Confederate battle-death came two months after the Confederate assault on Fort Sumter, and one month after the Confederacy's formal declaration of war on the United States, May 6, 1861.
Lot of words - but you avoided answering...Why?
Well considering as I observed it isn’t the one that has vanquished tyrannies throughout our nations history, the one defended since the Civil War,WW1 and WW2 and in peace time by members of my family and the one our troops are defending today yeah, it gets my “Irish’’ up. I don’t wear ‘’knickers’’ dude.
There are many for whom racism is a business.
Thanks for making my point. One of those ‘’white guys’’happened to be my great-great-grandfather.
JMac, I would bet most of us had ancestors who fought or died in that miserable war. What matters is that it was fought, and right won. No man can rightly claim “ownership” of another human being, and I’m sure most people have always known that in their hearts. Slavery has always been an evil part of this sick world and still is to this day.
Actually, I was hoping to put "the pot" to rest regarding some very frequently heard claims by Pro-Confederates on many FR Civil War threads.
ohioman: "Posts likes this only serve to divide otherwise conservatively similar people on FR."
"Posts like this" are just my response to many other Civil War related threads where our Pro-Confederates like to spread their propaganda regarding their glorious Lost Cause.
Of course, nothing "offends" me about the "glory" part of it, I'm just trying to keep their facts straight.
ohioman: "Of course I do not mean this as a slight on FR's founder, who hails from California."
I suspect you share a fundamental conceptual problem with our Lost Causers, which has to do with looking at the US map as just "north" vs "south" vs "east" vs "west".
That is so wrong I can't even tell you how wrong.
Liberal and Conservative have nothing to do with which state you come from.
They have everything to do with which part of your state you call home.
If your home is a city, chances are very good you're a Liberal, but as you become more rural, your politics become more Conservative.
Here again is that map of red and blue counties, as of the 2004 Bush vs Kerry election:
That's painting with a very broad brush. The North (painting with my own broad brush) is at once more impersonal and (in the cities) more tribal. People can have distant yet respectful relations with those from different groups without actually "hating" them. Or they can simply ignore people who aren't part of their own tribe. Doubtless there are White Northerners who actually do hate Blacks, but you have those in the South as well. The differences may be more of style and manner than anything else.
White Southerners may have had cordial relationships with Blacks they grew up with, as you say, without much caring for African-Americans as a group. I'm not sure that's all so very different -- political attitudes aside -- from those "Haaaahvaahd" people you put down. The phenomenon of liking or getting along with a few people while shunning or disliking the group they belong to isn't exclusive to either region. While Northerners may be colder we're not all automatons. It's worth a thought anyway.
Black attitudes towards Whites -- Northern or Southern -- are also pretty complicated. The stereotype may be that African-Americans get on better with Southerners. I'm not so sure that's really the case. Some Northern Blacks and Whites appear to get along quite well from what I can see.
and if you want to see palpable daily bigotry and racism, go to Philly, or Southie Boston
I hear that a lot. But it's a little strange that the 1970s or 1980s in Northern cities are supposed to be still going on and the 1950s or 1960s in the South are ancient history lost in the recesses of time.
For some people, Southie is the Selma or Montgomery they love to look down on and attribute their own faults to. What you're doing isn't so different from what you protest about when others do it to you.
Of course, things have changed in those cities over the last thirty years, even in neighborhoods that got a bad name. For better or worse, kids who are crazy about rap and have Latin girlfriends and black friends and relatives nowadays aren't who their grandparents were.
This is what I wrote:
“I think your view that the war was only about slavery is as incorrect as the war had nothing to do with slavery.”
Please read it carefully.
The Slave Power was statist and centralizing. No free state was going to be allowed to ban slavery. Eventually it would have been practiced in every state and territory of the Union.
“Make it decafe...”
Yep... these threads always seem to go on a while, don’t they? I’ve switched to seltzer water.. I’ll need some sleep tonight. LOL!
Preaching to the choir FRiend. Thanks.
“And the lion shall lie down with the lamb’’. Well you know the lambs aren’t getting any sleep tonight! :-)
You’re trolling attempt is getting you butt kicked in this discussion.
I think you owe Rush 20 bucks for his catch phrase.
According to the accepted totals, Lincoln got almost 40% of the vote.
From what I can see "South Carolina" the state did "vote" in the election. Their electors cast ballots.
It was just that the state decided up to the Civil War, not to hold popular elections. Since the state chose not to play the popular vote game, you can't hold it against the victors in those elections.
"If they were flocking for grits and hamhocks you might have just grounds for complaint, but it looks to me like they're just reclaiming and enjoying their own contribution."
Like my sister-in-law once said, "Have you ever noticed that you have to wait in line at the deli for half an hour if you're behind a Yankee? They buy up every kind of meat in the case."
I don't think the origin of the food has anything to do with it.
"And they laugh at you behind your backs, so I guess everybody's even."
And why would they do that? They come down here, criticize the South, try to tell us how to run things, and they laugh at us? Maybe we should just shut up and smile?
"I do have to wonder if the Yankees aren't a scapegoat. Maybe upcountry and downcountry would get on each other's nerves a lot more if there weren't convenient newcomers to blame."
Not in my experience.
If you think Yankees are a scapegoat, you're not a Southerner who's had to put up with one.
I read it very carefully and I’ll ask again - are you saying that slavery had nothing to do with the war? Was in no way a motivation for the Southern actions?
I sense a high level of internet butthurt.
Why honey, bless your heart. I'm sure you're just the soul of patience.
The political and intellectual father (or at least grandfather, as he died before secession) of the Confederacy was not Jefferson Davis, but John C. Calhoun. His principal objection to unionism was his belief that states have the right to negotiate their own trade agreements with one another and with foreign governments. Since the south was predominantly agrarian, planters resented the tariff that effectively forced them to purchase goods manufactured in the north instead of cheaper British or European goods.
While this was not the flashpoint that caused shots to be exchanged at Fort Sumter, disagreement over trade and taxes tilled the soil for secession over other issues, including slavery.
Not a broad brush at all— this reflects the cultural attitudinal behaviours of Yankees vs Southerners, and further, running this past my black friends, they concur- there is a distinct variance in how they are treated socially and in business.
The PC crowd of neo-liberals and social justice pontificators originated in the NE snoot schools with their largely white cliques of preppy aholes. Way long ago, Southerners got past all this— to survive Reconstruction. Southerners get along fine with Southern blacks— so put that into the formula.
Can tell you that among my black friends it is universal that they hate going to Boston, or Chi-town or New Yawwk and especially not LA or SF-— because of the bigotry (as distinguished from the ubiquitously misapplied “racism”). They love the South and their good old boy business and personal friends.
In that sense, your comment as it relates to bigotry may be more refined if you take into account urban vs. rural. Fact is that living like sardines breeds insanity and people’s focus is their own little habitat.
Listen to “National Brotherhood Week” by Tom Lehrer (a jewish yankee liberal counterculture harvard mathemetician who worked at the NSA and taught political science at MIT and math at UC Santa Cruz before embarking on musical theater career). He gets it just about right—the concept of focused bigotry painted with a broad brush, and all too true. Deo Vindice.
So is it your position that under *some* circumstances Virginia *has* the right to unilaterally secede?
(Has not had)
First of all, go back and read my item #1 again, it says the myth is:
But secession by itself did not cause war.
Indeed, there was virtually no Union response to secession, except in attempting to hold two, out of many dozens, of Federal facilities illegally seized by secessionists.
So, what started war was not secession, but rather the Confederacy's military assault on Federal Fort Sumter in April 1861, and then its formal declaration of war on the United States, May 6, 1861.
On May 23, 1861, Virginia voters elected to join the Confederacy and it's already declared war.
The first Confederate battle death did not happen until June 10, 1861.
wfu_deacons: "My great-grandfather (4 of my great-grandfathers served in the Confederate army) served as a private in the 10th Virginia and was not a slave-owner, 95% of the population of Virginia were not slave-owners."
Actual numbers for what percentages of white families from each state owned slaves can be found at this link.
They range from around 50% owning slaves in the Deep South states like Mississippi and South Carolina, to around 10% in Border states like Missouri and Maryland.
Numbers for Upper-South Virginia, North Carolina & Tennessee, as you might expect, are about half way: 25% of white families owned slaves.
Of course, in Western Virginia, your figure of 95% not owning slaves may well be correct.
And that is why they seceded from Virginia rather than go to war to defend slavery.
Eastern Tennessee and Western North Carolina tried to do the same.
wfu_deacons: "Union troops invoked total war against the citizens of Virginia they burned farms, killed livestock, and destroyed mills."
And Confederate troops invading Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky, Missouri and Kansas, to name some, did much the same.
The truth of the matter is that there was a lot of pillage and destruction of property, on both sides.
But there were very few murders or other atrocities against civilians, on either side.
As I said above, I appreciate most of what you say, but some of it is misleading. You are correct to note that murder and rape of civilians was rare in the civil war, but generally, the "pillaging" refers more the Sherman's scorched earth policy during his "March to the Sea" rather than uncoordinated criminal looting by individual soldiers.
There certainly is no denying the massive destruction of civilian property in Sherman's wake.
BroJoeK’s #114 was a bit wordy but the essence is correct - everyone has the natural right to rebellion but there is no “right of secession” enumerated in the United States Constitution, especially not unilaterally.
Why not start by working to end slavery in African countries where it's still practiced, as opposed to complaining about its practice a century and a half ago in the US?
All true, but the issue is not moral righteousness, the issue is over who is to blame for the civil war. It is a myth that Lincoln wanted to end slavery in existing slave states. The worst that his government did was limit the spread of slavery via the Missouri compromise and his government's failure to enforce the Fugitive Slave Act (why do state's rights suddenly go out the window there)?
The proximate (though not necessarily ultimate or historical cause) for secession was not Lincoln imposing his will on slave states, but the slave state's desire to impose their will and laws on the rest of the nation, including free states.
I've seen no confirmed records of "THOUSANDS" of civilians killed anywhere, and only one report of hundreds of civilians killed: in Confederate Captain William Quantrill's raid into Lawrence, Kansas in August, 1863.
I've seen no reports of any similar Civil War Union army massacre of civilians.
I'd say: Paid in Full by Appomatox, in April 1865,
Paid with Interest in the 13th, 14th & 15th Amendments,
Paid with penalties in LB Johnson's "Great Society"
Paid with usurious interest on the penalties in today's run-amuck, out-of-control, spend-like-no-tomorrow, Federal Government.
Very interesting post, thanks.
I have read your posts and you are quite unfamiliar with the monetary aspect of the Civil War.
The trade on the Mississippi was issue #1.
That's a little confusing. I'm pretty sure Southerners (or any Americans) back a century ago didn't "get past" anything racial.
Southerners get along fine with Southern blacks so put that into the formula.
I guess "Southerners" means "Southern Whites." And that is the "formula." The other side of the coin is that young White and Black Northerners may get along with each other better than Southerners are willing to admit and they just might feel as out of place in a Southern city (or rural community) as Southerners, Black or White, would feel in a Northern city. At least many of the younger African-Americans that I've met didn't feel like Dixie was "home." A few did. Others didn't.
What gets left out, though, is that Harvard and Southie dislike each other more than most Northerners and Southerners do. That conflict has been going on even longer than the piddling Civil War has (unless the Civil War was simply the same conflict in another guise). Complaining that Harvard and Yale look down on you while looking down yourself on Southie, or Phillie, or Cleveland, or Brooklyn, or Bridgeport -- is playing a double game. Maybe it's better to admit that the old days of rich, arrogant Northerners and poor, victimized Southerners are gone for good.
I want his take, but my impression of his position is that Virginia *does* have the unilateral right to secede, *IF* the rights of its citizens are being oppressed by the federal government. (He also says that the Fedgov was *not* oppressing citizens rights when Virginia Seceded.)
I don't know where you got that idea.
We gave up on fighting each other years ago. Maybe you should consider it today..."
First, thanks so much for you kind words, which I will take more sincerely than you intended. ;-)
Second, over the years there have been many, many Civil War related threads, where our Pro-Confederates have had plenty to say about it.
This thread merely attempts to summarize what I've seen as their most common myths.
Maybe we can put those to bed right here, FRiend?
Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.
You could have fooled me!
Nobody was tried for treason after the war, not even Jeff Davis who was being incarcerated and was asking for a trial.
The actual rifts started at the confluence of the Ohio and Tennessee. Tolls were being exacted on industry from the Great Lakes.
These tolls were mostly to stop Lincoln from exercising a “National” tax on products where the southern states felt no qualification for it.
ON April 4, 1861 the Virginia secession convention voted not to secede. The convention did not vote to secede until April 17, 1861 after Lincoln called for troops to invade the South. Virginia attempted to resolve the conflict by sending several delegations to Washington but in the end could not participate in the Unconstitutional invasion of the South.
Virginia’s population in 1860 was 1,596,318 and the number of slaveholders was 52,128, that works out to about 3.2%. The free population was 1,105,453 (not just white), so that works out to 4.7%-— my previous post was correct. Note, Virginia had more slaves that any other Southern state and more free blacks than any state with the exception of Maryland.
You comments about the South’s invasion of Union territory is like comparing a camp fire to Dresden.
I think your view that the war was only about slavery is as incorrect as the war had nothing to do with slavery.
I did not write:
I think your view that the war was only about slavery is incorrect, as the war had nothing to do with slavery.
The money guys from both sides cost us 650,000 folks and severe destruction. It was a tax that started it. Make no mistake that slavery became an issue but it wasn’t the kindling that started the fire.
Who decides whether they are being oppressed?
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