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Air Force Chaplain Awarded Bronze Star for PowerPoint Teaching Proper Sensitivity for the Koran
National Review Online ^ | 3/11/13 | Patrick Brennan

Posted on 03/11/2013 10:30:01 AM PDT by bigtoona

An Air Force chaplain has been awarded a Bronze Star for his service in crafting an especially good PowerPoint about how to treat Islamic religious materials with sensitivity, according to Ohio’s Dayton Daily News. After U.S. troops in Afghanistan accidentally burned copies of the Koran, sparking riots that took over 30 lives, Lieutenant Colonel Jon Trainer came to the rescue:

After the accidental burning last year of Qurans by U.S. troops in Afghanistan sparked deadly rioting, an Air National Guard chaplain from Springfield stepped in and potentially saved countless American lives.

For his effort, Lt. Col. Jon Trainer received the prestigious Bronze Star — a medal given for heroic or meritorious achievement in connection with operations against an armed enemy.

And he did it with a PowerPoint presentation. . . .

Within 48 hours, Trainer developed a PowerPoint presentation on the proper handling and disposal of Islamic religious material that was seen by every American — military and civilian alike — in Afghanistan. The presentation then was distributed to the U.S. for use in all pre-deployment training.

The piece explains that Trainer also helped teach service members just how wide the breadth of their sensitivity had to be, covering what constitutes Islamic religious material in the first place. “When a Muslim writes down even a few verses from the Quran on a piece of paper,” he told the paper, “that immediately gets that same protected status.”

Trainer is a nondenominational Christian minister who has been in the Air Force for 17 years. He is also being recognized for his work running the Army’s suicide-prevention program, in which he’s trained more than 36,000 service members.

The Bronze Star is the U.S. military’s fifth most prestigious combat award, and can be awarded for acts of merit or valor in a combat zone (if the military deems it an act of heroism, the award is given with a “V” device).


TOPICS: Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: bsm; chaplain; diversity; islamicfifthcolumn; usaf
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To: Cvengr

There are two types of Bronze Stars...one with a “V” for valor (awarded for meritorious actions in combat) and one sans “V” for meritorious service. I was awarded the latter for service at the command level over a period of six months.

I served at New Kabul Compound in the center of Kabul. We did not mingle with the local population. When not in uniform, I have traveled to numerous Muslim countries and discovered that once a relationship is established, conversation is free-wheeling. Many Muslims are nominal at best in their faith and open to dialogue.


51 posted on 03/11/2013 2:41:17 PM PDT by carpediem365 (sola deo gloria)
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To: bigtoona; billorites; colorado tanker; EXCH54FE; Nachum; carpediem365

When I deployed to Iraq in 2005-06, the standing order from the Brigade Commander went as follows:

If you are E-7 and above, the Bronze Star is yours to lose.

If you are E-6 and below, the Bronze Star is yours to win - provided you had signatures from several field-grade officers attesting to the merits of your “alleged” valor.

The Bronze Star has been reduced to nothing more than a Sunday School attendance pin.


52 posted on 03/11/2013 2:57:28 PM PDT by Old Sarge (We are officially over the precipice, we just havent struck the ground yet...)
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To: billorites
My PowerPoint without me is useless. Without my PowerPoint, I am useless.

Can't rightly say about PowerPoint Rangers, but PowerPoint Engineers are bloody near useless even WITH their PowerPoint.

53 posted on 03/11/2013 3:00:24 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: carpediem365
I have traveled to numerous Muslim countries and discovered that once a relationship is established, conversation is free-wheeling. Many Muslims are nominal at best in their faith and open to dialogue.

And the Koran teaches the good Muslim to lie to the infidel. This is called Taqiyyah. And you have seen it.

54 posted on 03/11/2013 3:05:47 PM PDT by Old Sarge (We are officially over the precipice, we just havent struck the ground yet...)
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To: bigtoona

55 posted on 03/11/2013 3:23:33 PM PDT by bayouranger (The 1st victim of islam is the person who practices the lie.)
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To: Talisker
But if you throw crap on gold, and call crap gold, it doesn't touch the real gold.

They want to make the Bronze Star just as meaningful as Obama's Nobel Peace Prize.


56 posted on 03/11/2013 4:11:23 PM PDT by Iron Munro (I miss America, don't you?)
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To: dfwgator

Thanks,very creative........I would like to meet the chaplain,pull off the bronze star and then bitch slap the guy for accepting it....disgraceful.


57 posted on 03/11/2013 4:21:45 PM PDT by Bravo six (Bravo six)
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To: bigtoona

Well there we have it. My Grandfather earned 2 of Bronze Stars. One in WWII and another in the Korean War. The bravery and sacrifice he was willing to endure pales in comparison to teaching about the Koran.


58 posted on 03/11/2013 4:41:16 PM PDT by castlegreyskull
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To: bigtoona
Should have given the Bronze Star to the troops who burned the koran.
59 posted on 03/11/2013 4:49:22 PM PDT by aomagrat (Gun owners who vote for democrats are too stupid to own guns.)
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To: Crapgame

My father served in Korea. And my mother passed away last year and I lost him several years ago.

Condolences on your losses.

And shame on the Obama-defiled DOD for giving out a Bronze Star like this.


60 posted on 03/11/2013 7:05:47 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: Bravo six
I would like to meet the chaplain,pull off the bronze star and then bitch slap the guy for accepting it....disgraceful.

You can meet him on post #46.

61 posted on 03/11/2013 8:04:05 PM PDT by houeto (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: carpediem365
demeaning of my service to this great nation.

Unfortunately there are too many in the media and here that indiscriminately shoot from the hip without properly identifying and researching a target.

Thank you for your service.

62 posted on 03/11/2013 8:10:23 PM PDT by Alaska Wolf (I)
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To: bigtoona; ColdOne; navymom1; Pat4ever; RIghtwardHo; Reaganite Republican; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

63 posted on 03/11/2013 8:14:45 PM PDT by narses
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To: carpediem365

PING ALL SEE POST 46


64 posted on 03/12/2013 1:22:22 AM PDT by golux
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To: carpediem365

Thanks for your service, carpe!


65 posted on 03/12/2013 2:31:23 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True supporters of our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: narses; Jim Robinson; P-Marlowe; Girlene; Lancey Howard; bigtoona; ColdOne; navymom1; Pat4ever; ...

You must see post #46. The chaplain who is the focus of this article is a Freeper, and he posts at #46.

It had been during the entirety of my career the military’s practice to award 2 types of bronze stars, one for valor with a “V” device and one for service with no device. That has not changed.

The bronze star is parallel to the peacetime award known as the Meritorious Service Medal. The Silver Star is parallel to the Legion of Merit.

I always preferred they award, for exceptional service in war zones, the MSM with some kind of “C” device (combat?) rather than a bronze star, but they don’t. It would certainly make more sense given the nature of modern warfare in which some via satellite/cyber-world/etc. thousands of miles from the combat zone have been awarded bronze stars for service. Make no mistake, though, the service rendered is important with a real impact on the effort in the combat area.

The Silver Star can only be awarded for valor, and I would prefer they have the same standard for the Bronze Star. But, they don’t.

That isn’t the fault of this chaplain who is A FREEPER and who posts at #46 on this thread the real basis of the award.

As a retired chaplain, I guarantee that the description given of a full tour with combat zone responsibility as a trainer for an entire region would legitimately qualify for a service bronze star. We must not succumb to the notion that the only ones giving everything they have during wartime are only on the front lines. To pretend that staff and support roles are not taken seriously, are not sacrificially pursued 24/7 by dedicated troops, and are not deserving of recognition is to pretend that 9/10 of the military does not exist, since that is the historic tooth/tail ratio describing the number of troops it takes to support one combat soldier on the firing line.


66 posted on 03/12/2013 2:57:56 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True supporters of our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: xzins

Thanks a ton. I wrote NR and included these bullet points:

-the Bronze Star was awarded for meritorious service over a period of six months, not for one incident that lasted 48-72 hours

-the citation package includes bullet points outlining other achievements during the deployment

-the award was given, in part, because I was serving as a Lt Col on a command staff with oversight of every chaplain deployed in the AOR...in other words the significance of the position and the rank of the individual play a large part in the kind of medal given

-the training package in response to the Quran burning is mentioned because it had theater-wide import—strategic implications, not because it had anything to do with Islam

Here is a fairer representation of my tour: http://sunburynews.com/2012/06/lt-col-jon-trainer-harlem-zoning-board-presented-bronze-star/

Chap T


67 posted on 03/12/2013 4:00:18 AM PDT by carpediem365 (sola deo gloria)
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To: xzins; carpediem365

Thanks for the information, xxins, and thanks to both of you for your service.


68 posted on 03/12/2013 4:44:19 AM PDT by Girlene
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To: carpediem365

In the Army, commanders, when they had their “combat leader” hats on, would refer to chaplain ministry as “combat multipliers” .

All the work listed in that article you linked me to is exactly that.

What civilians don’t recognize is what being in combat (even a combat zone) does to the human spirit. Since death is so close and so commonly witnessed, our troops begin to wonder about life and death in a real — not a philosophical — way.

The question faced by the military is “Would we want religious leaders largely self-appointed to just show up one day?” There are some awesome pastors who have just “risen up”. Amos in Amos 7, as he so eloquently said: “I was neither a prophet nor a prophet’s son, but I was a shepherd, and I also took care of sycamore-fig trees...”

And there are some absolutely terrible ones.

With a mission, lives, and a nation on the line, and troops with a real need to get in touch with God, would you rather have leading the spiritual lives of your troops a called and ordained, experienced representative of a recognized US religious body, or would you rather trust spiritual leadership to whomever happens along?

How much influence in times of real death and serious injury can a religious leader have? Experience says they can have enormous influence. The old expression, “there are no atheists in foxholes” didn’t just happen to get coined.

So, thank you for your service, Chaplain, and for your availability to our troops when they needed a pastor at a most crucial time of their lives.


69 posted on 03/12/2013 5:27:18 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True supporters of our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: xzins

Thanks for the heads up.
I agree with everything you said. It is easy for normal, traditional Americans today to be skeptical (and cynical) when talking about Ubama’s sodomized, feminized, politically correct military. Thank you for your reasoned post.


70 posted on 03/12/2013 8:55:13 AM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: xzins; ColdOne; navymom1; Pat4ever; RIghtwardHo; Reaganite Republican; Clintons Are White Trash; ...

xzins wrote:

You must see post #46. The chaplain who is the focus of this article is a Freeper, and he posts at #46.

It had been during the entirety of my career the military’s practice to award 2 types of bronze stars, one for valor with a “V” device and one for service with no device. That has not changed.

The bronze star is parallel to the peacetime award known as the Meritorious Service Medal. The Silver Star is parallel to the Legion of Merit.

I always preferred they award, for exceptional service in war zones, the MSM with some kind of “C” device (combat?) rather than a bronze star, but they don’t. It would certainly make more sense given the nature of modern warfare in which some via satellite/cyber-world/etc. thousands of miles from the combat zone have been awarded bronze stars for service. Make no mistake, though, the service rendered is important with a real impact on the effort in the combat area.

The Silver Star can only be awarded for valor, and I would prefer they have the same standard for the Bronze Star. But, they don’t.

That isn’t the fault of this chaplain who is A FREEPER and who posts at #46 on this thread the real basis of the award.

As a retired chaplain, I guarantee that the description given of a full tour with combat zone responsibility as a trainer for an entire region would legitimately qualify for a service bronze star. We must not succumb to the notion that the only ones giving everything they have during wartime are only on the front lines. To pretend that staff and support roles are not taken seriously, are not sacrificially pursued 24/7 by dedicated troops, and are not deserving of recognition is to pretend that 9/10 of the military does not exist, since that is the historic tooth/tail ratio describing the number of troops it takes to support one combat soldier on the firing line.


71 posted on 03/12/2013 5:49:39 PM PDT by narses
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To: xzins; carpediem365

Thank you both for your service and your help here in clearing up a terrible misunderstanding brought about by poor writing.


72 posted on 03/12/2013 5:52:58 PM PDT by narses
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To: narses; carpediem365

I have always valued the service of our military chaplains but I do take exception to the casual attitude evidenced by the award of a Bronze Star as an “end of tour award”. I don’t care how meritorious support services are, some awards should only be for direct combat service - and the Air Force is infamous for award inflation. I got a Bronze Star too - for running into an open field while several machine guns were firing at me to rescue a badly wounded Marine. I dragged him 75 meters and was shot just as I got him to cover. I spent over a year in the hospital recovering but that guy’s alive today. Same medal. Just like a Meritorious Service Medal?


73 posted on 03/12/2013 6:30:14 PM PDT by Chainmail (A simple rule of life: if you can be blamed, you're responsible.)
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To: Chainmail; narses; carpediem365; P-Marlowe
I got a Bronze Star too - for running into an open field while several machine guns were firing at me to rescue a badly wounded Marine. I dragged him 75 meters and was shot just as I got him to cover. I spent over a year in the hospital recovering but that guy’s alive today. Same medal. Just like a Meritorious Service Medal?

I agree, chainmail, that a medal for service should be different than a medal for valor. I have no idea why the military insists on the dual description for the bronze star, but they do. I would prefer the award for service be an MSM with some kind of device showing that it was for service rendered in a combat zone.

I have no idea why they don't change it. I truly wish they would.

IN the meantime, I also think it's also absolutely critical that support and service support troops get recognized for the work that they do in the war effort. We must not forget them. In fact, if my memory is correct, close to half or more of the KIA's in Iraq were support troops on various support missions.

Carpediem365 used "Lingo" when he referred to the award he received as an "end of tour" award. He's referring to a discussion that takes place as a soldier prepares to leave the theater. The discussion is in a soldier's command chain. The discussion is: "For the X months Jones was here, what does his entire body of work amount to in terms of our war mission?" If a review of that body of work shows it really does fall under the heading of sacrificial service, then an award is readied.

It is unfortunate that lingo gets used to describe a "body of service" as "end of tour" as if everyone getting to the end of a tour would get such an award just for being there. That is not the case. Nonetheless, a commander will get with his staff and commanders and say things like "Jones is nearing the end of his tour. Does he deserve an award?"

In shorthand, everyone begins referring to "end of tour" awards. Properly APPLIED (an entire body of work over a long period of time) there's nothing wrong with that. If anyone gets in the habit of just cranking our BSMs just as a "Jones was here" award, then they've cheapened one of America's most significant medals.

74 posted on 03/12/2013 6:55:11 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True supporters of our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: PhilDragoo; ntnychik
Thanks Phil, and alerting you to Post #46 in case you haven't seen it.
75 posted on 03/12/2013 7:00:52 PM PDT by potlatch (~be content with small victories and simple pleasures~)
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To: xzins; Chainmail; narses; carpediem365; P-Marlowe

I agree that the award of a bronze star suggests some kind of battlefield heroics, the fact of the matter is that it does not necessarily mean a battlefield action. Carp was awarded the bronze star apparently because by his service he may have and probably did contribute to saving the lives of many soldiers.

FWIW you get a purple heart if you lose a leg or cut your finger. The fact that one soldier gets it for cutting his finger does not diminish the honor bestowed upon the soldier who loses his leg. They both earned it under the same rules. Chain mail earned his medal on the battlefield and Carp earned his by his service off the front lines.

I think the headline on this story is misleading. The power point was not the point. It was the entire tour of duty.

Thanks for your service. Both of you. You both have done your Country proud.


76 posted on 03/12/2013 7:56:44 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (There can be no Victory without a fight and no battle without wounds.)
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To: potlatch
Ten years building sand castles. President and DCI are muslim. Ft. Hood jihadist was telegraphed for a year.
77 posted on 03/13/2013 1:22:23 AM PDT by PhilDragoo (Hussein: Islamo-Commie from Fakistan)
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To: PhilDragoo; ntnychik

They’ve infiltrated every area of our government.

Number of Muslims in the U.S. doubles since 9/11 - [2010 article]

A new survey reveals the dramatically changing face of religion in America, with the number of Muslims in the U.S. soaring 67% in the decade since the 9/11 attacks.

Data released Tuesday from the 2010 U.S. Religion Census shows Islam was the fastest growing religion in America in the last 10 years, with 2.6 million living in the U.S. today, up from 1 million in 2000.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/number-muslims-u-s-doubles-9-11-article-1.1071895#ixzz2NR5SvQSE


78 posted on 03/13/2013 9:01:30 AM PDT by potlatch (~be content with small victories and simple pleasures~)
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To: carpediem365

Terrible misrepresentations and outright lies occur just as much if not more in the Old Media, and if they correct themselves it’s usually on page 14. In the New Media, when someone screws up, which obviously happened in reporting your award, the correction goes viral. Don’t know what the bozos who blew it intend to do, but I would much rather read what you have to say directly (and here we are). This stinks that you got trashed, but now we all know the story was wrong - I am not a fan of NRO, but I am devoted to FR. There I will find the truth sooner or later.

Bless you and thank you so much for your service to our soldiers.


79 posted on 03/13/2013 4:07:12 PM PDT by Sioux-san
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To: P-Marlowe; carpediem365; narses; xzins
Thank you very much for your cogent comments - everything you said is true. I guess that people in my position just have to recognize that there are odd situations out there and any recognition that we get is never going to be any real solution to anything.

I really hope that "award inflation" is stopped and maybe "battlefield heroics" gain their own separate status from the meritorious service.

I had a reasonably long time in the service, starting as an enlisted man and finishing as a lieutenant colonel. I saw many views of the service and its idiosyncracies. There was award inflation based on rank, certain awards reserved for colonels and above, and there was also strong pressure to obtain certain awards to be in a better position for promotion. I agree that combat support and combat service support troops are exposed to severe danger sometimes and they are essential in their jobs. I just feel that those rare events where you know that what you are doing will get you horribly killed and you do it anyway should be a separate class of awards, not confused with anything else.

While I was being trained as a new second lieutenant, I saw a Marine Colonel awarded the Bronze Star with V device for "being instrumental in the fielding of the M-16 rifle". Later, when I was attending a graduation dinner for a service school, the young lady airman sitting across from me was wearing the Bronze Star and when I asked her how she earned it, she said that she "provided essential support to the operations in Grenada" from her office in the Pentagon.

These sort of things make those of us who were in direct combat pause. Is that all our service meant to our country? There were few of us as it was who signed up for the most dangerous stuff - and it was dangerous: I never met a single Marine infantryman in Vietnam who hadn't been wounded. They often didn't report what they considered "scratches" because they wanted to stay with their units and not be sent home (unlike 'ol Combat John Kerry) and often the wounds were caused by your own grenades - it's hard to throw the things far enough to avoid being hit by your own frags. One man I knew was hit by a small fragment and concealed it from all of us - just rubbed Johnson & Johnson First Aid Cream into the hole and kept going - until he collapsed later in the day. I knew many, many other acts of heroism that weren't seen by any officer and most of the real heroes never got any medals at all. All the same, it still galls to think that what small recognition we got can be confused with "outstanding support for the operations in Grenada".

I don't begrudge the Chaplain who was recognized for his superb work supporting our forces in Afghanistan. I just wish they'd picked a different medal, that's all. Life ain't perfect, I guess,

80 posted on 03/14/2013 7:48:16 AM PDT by Chainmail (A simple rule of life: if you can be blamed, you're responsible.)
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To: Chainmail; carpediem365; narses; xzins
I don't begrudge the Chaplain who was recognized for his superb work supporting our forces in Afghanistan. I just wish they'd picked a different medal, that's all. Life ain't perfect, I guess,

To put the whole medal thing in perspective, there were 20 Medals of Honor awarded in a one hour battle in South Dakota in 1890. In that battle a Cavalry unit of about 500 soldiers managed to kill about 90 "combatants" and about 200 women and children. Most of the 25 fatal Army casualties were probably the victims of Friendly Fire.

81 posted on 03/14/2013 2:10:12 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (There can be no Victory without a fight and no battle without wounds.)
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To: P-Marlowe

You might clarify your point - what do the atrocities at Wounded Knee have to with this discussion? Are you trying to be insulting or are you just suggesting that medals don’t mean anything?


82 posted on 03/14/2013 2:56:05 PM PDT by Chainmail (A simple rule of life: if you can be blamed, you're responsible.)
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To: Chainmail; P-Marlowe; carpediem365; narses

No, he’s saying that medals are captive to the rules for awarding them in the era in which they are awarded.

A sub-message would be that you know the basis of your own medal, and you should be proud of it regardless what other commanders and other eras have done.

All that said, chainmail, I wish they’d quit awarding bronze stars for service. It makes much more sense to award a service medal at the same level with the bronze star: The Meritorious SERVICE Medal.

They should attach some device to it to show it was for service rendered in or to a hostile mission.


83 posted on 03/14/2013 3:55:17 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True supporters of our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: Chainmail; carpediem365; narses; xzins
Are you trying to be insulting or are you just suggesting that medals don’t mean anything?

I am pointing out that many medals are given under very questionable circumstances (such as John Kerry's Silver Star) and that medals are often given for political reasons rather than for what actually happened in the field.

There were 20 Medals of Honor that were given for alleged undaunted courage and bravery in literally massacring nearly 200 women and children in an open field. Those medals were purely political and were awarded not for bravery, but to cover up an embarrassing incident. No one was charged for gunning down children in the back, but instead everyone was given a hero's pat on the back.

The political climate at that time was such that people like General Sherman and L Frank Baum (the wizard of oz) were advocating complete extermination of the native Americans as late as the end of the 19th Century. This thread was started as a veiled attempt to undermine the contributions of a Chaplain in the war effort who had been given a bronze star for his efforts. A lot of people complained that only battlefield contributions should be given such a medal. But when it comes down to it, there are a lot of battlefield medals that were either not earned or given for the wrong reasons.

The military hasn't changed too much from what it was 100 years ago. There is still a lot of politics involved in the awarding of medals and commissions. As far as I know the medals awarded for the Wounded Knee Massacre are still on the books. The fact that they were not rescinded implies that the Wounded Knee soldiers were as brave and honorable as the 7 soldiers who received them for their efforts on Omaha Beach.

84 posted on 03/14/2013 4:01:23 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (There can be no Victory without a fight and no battle without wounds.)
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To: P-Marlowe; xzins; carpediem365
I like xzins take on the situation better than yours, P-Marlowe. Your reply just says outright that if some medals are awarded improperly that all medals are worthless. My problem is that I am too immersed in this. I had a small part of a large, lengthy war with tens of thousands of our good young guys dead and hundreds of thousands maimed. I saw a lot of heroism and self-sacrifice and I am proud of all of them. I am past the age where I wear any of my medals and they stay in the closet on an old uniform. Whatever they are worth will end up in some garage sale someday.

It's both good and lousy to talk about this stuff but as your comments have illustrated, the only people that will ever know what really was worthwhile are the ones who were there.

85 posted on 03/14/2013 4:27:47 PM PDT by Chainmail (A simple rule of life: if you can be blamed, you're responsible.)
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To: Chainmail; xzins
I like xzins take on the situation better than yours, P-Marlowe.

. That makes two of us.

86 posted on 03/14/2013 5:59:56 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (There can be no Victory without a fight and no battle without wounds.)
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To: Nachum
What about teaching those beheading seventh century barbarians “....Proper Sensitivity for the [ Bible and the Torah ]....”. NUTS to teaching sensitivity toward a political cult propagated by a pedophile.
87 posted on 04/08/2013 7:18:58 AM PDT by Robert Drobot (Quaeras de dubiis, legem bene discere si vis)
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To: moder_ator
While it has been a while since I last posted on Free-Republic.com, are postings now ‘reviewed’ before they're actualized. What are the protocol details of a ‘review’?
88 posted on 04/08/2013 7:18:58 AM PDT by Robert Drobot (Quaeras de dubiis, legem bene discere si vis)
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To: Robert Drobot

Worse than nuts. Unfortunately.


89 posted on 04/08/2013 7:35:35 AM PDT by Nachum (The Obama "List" at www.nachumlist.com)
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To: moder_ator; Jim Robinson

I await a response to Post#88.


90 posted on 04/08/2013 8:23:40 AM PDT by Robert Drobot (Quaeras de dubiis, legem bene discere si vis)
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