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The Toomey-Manchin Proposal Will Allow Doctors to Block Your Right to Guns
Red State ^ | 4/10/2013 | Erick Erickson

Posted on 04/10/2013 11:40:05 AM PDT by rmlew

I just talked to someone familiar with the Toomey-Manchin proposal who raises a serious concern based on his understanding of the legislation.

Everyone on all sides agrees that we need better help for those with mental health problems who need treatment.

Unfortunately, the person I talked with is concerned that the Toomey-Manchin proposal could discourage people from getting help.

The proposal will allow a doctor to add a patient to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) without ever telling the patient he or she has been added.

There would be no due process requirement. Not all doctors will be able to do it with the same ease, but many will. Knowing a doctor could add him to a federal database as mentally ill without his knowledge could potentially dissuade a patient from going to the doctor in the first place to get help.

Worse, if the doctor does so and makes a mistake, the patient would have to actively work through the system to get himself removed — guilty before being proven innocent. In some states, should a doctor flag you as having mental illness without your knowledge, you may very well see the state come collect your previously purchased guns.

Activist mental health providers will probably be overly aggressive in adding people to the list. Give it five years in liberal areas and people who believe in the physical resurrection of Christ will probably get automatic entry onto the list.

Mental health is a serious issue and the Toomey-Manchin legislation could have negative consequences. Worse, it would still not stop a Columbine, a Newtown, or the daily massacres in Chicago.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; News/Current Events; US: Pennsylvania; US: West Virginia
KEYWORDS: banglist; guncontrol; gunrights; manchin; secondamendment; toomey
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Time to get on the phones people. Otherwise you loose your guns if you ever took an anti-depressant (even Zyban for smoking) and conceivably if anyone in your home did.
1 posted on 04/10/2013 11:40:05 AM PDT by rmlew
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To: rmlew
I have been searching everywhere to see what the actual language is for this “fix.” Does anyone have a source of the actual language?

There were so many things wrong with Schumers S374 that I really doubt Toomey could have fixed them all.

2 posted on 04/10/2013 11:41:40 AM PDT by Robert357 (D.Rather "Hoist with his own petard!" www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1223916/posts)
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To: rmlew

Just more crap frm Washington’s power-mad *ssholes - both Democan and Republicrat.


3 posted on 04/10/2013 11:43:08 AM PDT by Jack Hammer (American)
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To: rmlew

Jack wagons!!!!

This already covered in the firearms act of1934.

Unnecessary and onerous


4 posted on 04/10/2013 11:44:16 AM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: Robert357

I doubt any senator read this.

Bloomberg’s cronies probably wrote this.

The same people who wrote obamacare as a socialist takeover.


5 posted on 04/10/2013 11:45:09 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: rmlew
Oh, this sets up a nasty dynamic.

Doctor on routine visit asks if I have guns in my house.

I tell him it's none of his business.

The doc adds me to the database, figuring I'm some kind of crazed gun nut.

Thanks, Toomey. You just ensured I will be working for whoever runs against you in the 2016 primary.

6 posted on 04/10/2013 11:45:27 AM PDT by dirtboy
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To: rmlew

Tyrant Kim Un Hussein must be very pleased that his efforts to “FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA” are progressing so easily.


7 posted on 04/10/2013 11:45:35 AM PDT by Graewoulf (Traitor John Roberts' Commune-Style Obama'care' violates U.S. Constitution AND Anti-Trust Law.)
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To: rmlew

It says the “state” will come and collect the guns. Look for local cops, sheriffs and state police to give the feds extra firepower. They would all love to get on TV in a stand off with a “survivalist extremist”.


8 posted on 04/10/2013 11:46:27 AM PDT by VerySadAmerican
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To: rmlew; All
Here:

Senator Pat Toomey Facebook Page

"Pennsylvania has a long, bipartisan tradition of supporting gun rights. I am a proud part of that tradition. I am a gun owner. I revere the rights enshrined in our Second Amendment. My record shows this. Criminal background checks are just common sense. If you pass a criminal background check, you can buy a gun. It’s the people who fail a criminal or mental health background check that we don’t want having guns. That can be done without infringing on law-abiding people’s gun rights. And we ought to do it."

9 posted on 04/10/2013 11:46:33 AM PDT by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: rmlew
So obamacare will drive doctors out of business so what ever health care practitioner that is declared a mental health expert will take your guns away. Constitutional rights will be denied without due process by a possible anti gun radical.
10 posted on 04/10/2013 11:46:54 AM PDT by mountainlion (Live well for those that did not make it back.)
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To: Graewoulf

What do you want to bet that Obamacare will have a quota that physisicans will have to meet.


11 posted on 04/10/2013 11:47:28 AM PDT by Kanzan
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To: rmlew
Anyone surprised?

Didn't think so.

Sometimes I wonder if these nimrods know what a black market is.

12 posted on 04/10/2013 11:48:19 AM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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To: Kanzan

What’s to stop pediatricians from adding every parent of their patients to the list. Because children shouldn’t live in a home with guns?


13 posted on 04/10/2013 11:48:50 AM PDT by Black Agnes
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To: dirtboy
Oh, this sets up a nasty dynamic. Doctor on routine visit asks if I have guns in my house.

The correct answer is, "I don't have a gun. Nobody saw my gun. You can't prove anything."

14 posted on 04/10/2013 11:49:51 AM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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To: VerySadAmerican
Look for local cops, sheriffs and state police to give the feds extra firepower.

They've already been doing that. Note that whenever agents from given agencies visit Joe Citizen, they always bring along their local or state LEO "partners" to provide muscle.

15 posted on 04/10/2013 11:50:20 AM PDT by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: rmlew

REALLY crazy people who don’t seek help will still be able to get them. And you will not have solved the problem but made it worse by ensuring that they will shun treatment.


16 posted on 04/10/2013 11:50:56 AM PDT by informavoracious (The ancient Greeks and Romans thought they were on the "right side of history.")
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To: dirtboy
[blank look, shading over to barely concealed horror at the thought] A gun? In my house? Oh, gosh, no! /sarc
17 posted on 04/10/2013 11:51:07 AM PDT by cyn (Benghazi.)
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To: Timber Rattler

The words to these laws will mean different things to different people.

So if you get pulled over for running a stop sign you might as well tell the cop to follow you home so you can give him your guns.

Or if you’ve ever been to the Betty Ford Clinic for treatment of alcoholism, expect a knock on the door.

And if you tell them you sold your weapons they’ll ask you why you bought ammo last week.


18 posted on 04/10/2013 11:51:17 AM PDT by VerySadAmerican
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To: Robert357
Does anyone have a source of the actual language?

The Public Safety and Second Amendment Rights Protection Act

19 posted on 04/10/2013 11:51:44 AM PDT by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

I’m not sure, isn’t it racist?


20 posted on 04/10/2013 11:52:24 AM PDT by cyn (Benghazi.)
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To: rmlew

I’m beginning to realize that this is what they really want. They don’t need anything else.


21 posted on 04/10/2013 11:53:57 AM PDT by Noamie
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To: rmlew

And let me guess: The doctor or other health care professional who reported you and made a mistake will be protected from litigation.


22 posted on 04/10/2013 11:56:44 AM PDT by Nita Nupress
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To: rmlew
The Toomey-Manchin Proposal Will Allow Doctors to Block Your Right to Guns

Well considering I don't intend to play by their "universal" system (as a seller or buyer) no matter what laws are passed and I long ago "opted out" of the Brady law, by only buying from individuals. I'm not particularly worried about anybody blocking my right to guns. Oh true, they might block my right to go down to the local gun store and buy one off the self, but I haven't played that game since before the brady bill went into effect anyway.

23 posted on 04/10/2013 11:58:05 AM PDT by apillar
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To: rmlew

In reality, I will bet that the Doctor probably wouldn’t know that he’s adding anyone to a “list.”

The Doctor would simply put in a code (required by ObamaCare) that means something simple like, “patient has reported increased stress”.

What the Government will do - without the Docs knowledge - is start searching for those particular codes and then flag people.

HIPPA be damned.

Without a strong 2nd there just are no other Rights.


24 posted on 04/10/2013 11:58:51 AM PDT by Noamie
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To: rmlew

Primary them. Even if they win a primary, they are forced to spend money and are weakened. We need payback.


25 posted on 04/10/2013 11:59:10 AM PDT by AdaGray
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To: Nita Nupress

How many people have had legitimate issues with Experian and other credit agencies? And there you have data that shows where the mistaken reporting came from. And recourse to fix it.

It’s like the no fly database. No way of knowing how you ended up there. No way to fix it if you’re there by mistake.


26 posted on 04/10/2013 12:02:46 PM PDT by Black Agnes
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To: Robert357

I can’t find it at http://thomas.loc.gov

A secret bill?


27 posted on 04/10/2013 12:06:10 PM PDT by DBrow
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To: Noamie; waterhill; ixtl
I’m beginning to realize that this is what they really want. They don’t need anything else.

Oh yeah, and you can bet all of this is already in place in Obamacare.

Further comments self censored...........(((ping))).

28 posted on 04/10/2013 12:06:49 PM PDT by Envisioning (Call me a racist........, one more time..........)
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To: rmlew

This will keep Ashley Judd from having a gun????

Is there anyone who is fifty or older who hasn’t had trouble sleeping or who hasn’t had a period of anxiety or depression?? Better not say anything about it to your doctor.


29 posted on 04/10/2013 12:07:26 PM PDT by JimSEA
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To: rmlew

So they are going to make doctors the “police.”

And HIPA privacy be damned.


30 posted on 04/10/2013 12:08:24 PM PDT by dhs12345
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To: Nita Nupress

“The doctor or other health care professional who reported you and made a mistake will be protected from litigation.”

I wouldn’t be surprised if they were allowed to remain anonymous.


31 posted on 04/10/2013 12:10:22 PM PDT by MNGal
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To: cyn

32 posted on 04/10/2013 12:12:01 PM PDT by ConjunctionJunction
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To: rmlew

Face it. It is over That jackass McCain and his buds sold out.

No use voting anymore. People always said this is where they would draw the line. Yeah right. Just kicking the can down the road. The fight is over.


33 posted on 04/10/2013 12:12:38 PM PDT by dforest (I have now entered the Twilight Zone.)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

If I were a doctor, I would be concerned. If a person is determined, and unstable (why else would they be seeing the doctor) they’d be able to find a gun somewhere and might not be happy with the doctor.

If I were a doctor, I would refuse to comply for my own safety.


34 posted on 04/10/2013 12:16:28 PM PDT by dhs12345
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To: rmlew
Time to get on the phones again?

Yup, once again it's that time of day to beg your own government for freedoms which were not even in question not long ago.

Beg them to stop punishing you, call them, but be polite and ask them real nice to stop dancing with the devil. Remember, be polite, say please, say thank you, and provide them all your information!

35 posted on 04/10/2013 12:16:31 PM PDT by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: rmlew
Toomey, when will you switch parties like your friend Spector did?? It is time for the TEA PARTY to wake up and fight FOR the CONSTITUTION!! We Marxists - AND RINOs - are fighting against it, we need to fight for it!
36 posted on 04/10/2013 12:20:42 PM PDT by ExCTCitizen
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oops we = The...sorry..Mistakes happens (even from us CONSERVATIVES)


37 posted on 04/10/2013 12:21:50 PM PDT by ExCTCitizen
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To: VerySadAmerican
And if you tell them you sold your weapons they’ll ask you why you bought ammo last week.

I quadrupled my money on gunbroker.com

38 posted on 04/10/2013 12:26:26 PM PDT by dartuser (My firearm is not illegal ... its undocumented.)
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To: rmlew; Born Conservative; airborne; smoothsailing; Dr. Scarpetta; martin_fierro; Coop; Tribune7; ...
Gun Groups Not Happy With Toomey, Manchin Compromise

Toomey and Manchin's legislation clarifies that doctors can enter mental health records into the national background check system without it being a violation of privacy laws.

That's nice. No due process!
39 posted on 04/10/2013 12:27:04 PM PDT by neverdem ( Xin loi min oi)
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To: rmlew

A list of conservative, Second-Amendment friendly physicians in every state needs to be compiled, that is, if doing so hasn’t been made illegal.


40 posted on 04/10/2013 12:32:06 PM PDT by Jyotishi (Seeking the truth, a fact at a time.)
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To: rmlew

Whatever happened to all that “between you and your doctor” bull**** the commie lib DemocRATS are always spewing at us?


41 posted on 04/10/2013 12:35:53 PM PDT by FlingWingFlyer (Dude! Where's my Bill of Rights?)
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To: dirtboy

It also sets up the dynamic that people will abstain from unnecessary or even routine doctor visits out of fear that the question would be asked.

It also brings up a very frightening question of being drugged by a doctor for a “procedure” that winds up being a truth serum or psychosis-inducing medication.

If anything else, it’ll lower the number of people seeking “care” under the PPACA, thus handing the Dems, and Obama, a budget “win.”


42 posted on 04/10/2013 12:38:29 PM PDT by rarestia (It's time to water the Tree of Liberty.)
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To: Timber Rattler

I’m OK with stopping a mentally ill person from buying a gun, but NOT ON A DOCTOR’S SAY-SO. That right should have to be removed by a Judge in a Court of Law, with testimony and the ability for rebuttal.


43 posted on 04/10/2013 12:39:26 PM PDT by ez (Laws are for little people. Criminals, politicians, police, and David Gregory are exempt.)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
+1.

When the government asks me to incriminate myself I always take the “immaculate conception” defense.

My father didn't have sex with my mother.

As a baby I never defecated in my diapers.

As a child I never picked my nose and ate it.

I have never even SEEN a policeman.

I don't even know what illegal drugs are.

I have never even bent, let alone broken, the law.

I do not now own and have never owned a firearm. The only time I ever learned to shoot or held a firearm was when I was in the U.S. military, where I mysteriously shot amazingly well for a novice.

I am not now on, never have been on, or ever will be on any anti depressants, anti psychotics, or any pharmaceutical medication other than antibiotics.

Etc, etc.

44 posted on 04/10/2013 12:43:40 PM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism)
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To: Timber Rattler

Thank you! for the actual language link!


45 posted on 04/10/2013 12:47:04 PM PDT by Robert357 (D.Rather "Hoist with his own petard!" www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1223916/posts)
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To: ExCTCitizen

How did it feel to join the Marxists, if only for one mistaken moment? Did you take a shower? LOL Bob


46 posted on 04/10/2013 12:49:37 PM PDT by alstewartfan (300 boys and no girls at all You're a fool if you leave Think of the joys of rugby footballAlStewart)
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To: dhs12345

Living in Obamaville, a prescription for stress meds should be a *requirement* before purchasing a gun. It’s the folks who don’t realize that the nation is crashing who are too stupid to own a gun. Bob


47 posted on 04/10/2013 12:52:32 PM PDT by alstewartfan (300 boys and no girls at all You're a fool if you leave Think of the joys of rugby footballAlStewart)
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To: Timber Rattler
OK I spent some time on that website. It is an outline not the exact language
48 posted on 04/10/2013 12:53:39 PM PDT by Robert357 (D.Rather "Hoist with his own petard!" www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1223916/posts)
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To: Timber Rattler

“It’s the people who fail a criminal or mental health background check that we don’t want having guns.”

He forgot the last part...”And we can pass or fail anyone we want depending on what we ‘check’ for.”


49 posted on 04/10/2013 12:55:39 PM PDT by Beagle8U (Free Republic -- One stop shopping ....... It's the Conservative Super WalMart for news .)
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To: dirtboy

Just say “no” to your doctor. And lie to him if you smoke. I’ve been lying to my doctors for years.


50 posted on 04/10/2013 1:01:45 PM PDT by miss marmelstein ( Richard Lives Yet!)
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