Skip to comments.Disturbing conversation with a therapist re: seizing patientís guns
Posted on 06/15/2013 7:19:49 AM PDT by Gen.Blather
I had a disturbing conversation with a therapist about reporting/seizing patients guns. It revolved around the recent FR article reporting a 72 year old man had his musket collection seized because his therapist requested it. (A link would be appreciated.)
Well call the therapist Bill. Bill: A therapist must follow the ethical guidelines of the practice plus any state laws. So, if the patient had expressed any suicidal ideation or depression, the therapist may be obligated to report this and the weapons will be seized.
Me: Do you think that might damage the trust relationship with the therapist?
Bill shrugged and rolled his eyes. Probably, but its a requirement. The therapist has no choice.
Me: It seems then that the relationship with the therapist isnt one between medical professional and patient, but between the therapist and the government. Where does the therapists loyalty lie?
Bill: (This is reduced to carry the flavor without being an exact quote.) The therapist is a required to follow the law. The law differs from state to state.
Me: Do you think there may be an agenda where the therapist doesnt like guns or gun owners?
Bill: Its certainly possible. But without knowing any of the details, I cant say.
Me: Do you think having the government swoop in and search your house and seize your property might have a negative psychological impact on the patient?
Bill: (Again, a shrug.) You do what the law and the ethical standards require.
Me: It seems to me that anybody who was honest with a therapist is an idiot.
Bill: It may lead to people not being open with their therapist, yes.
In a side note, Bill said that the patients records belong to the therapist but the contents of the record belong to the patient. (Really fine delineation, but he was trying to get at patient privacy. But if he sends the sheriff to your house to search it, then what is the privacy worth?) Several years ago, I worked on a classified project. A woman employee had experienced a nervous breakdown and was temporarily removed from the project. Shed been with the same group for 25 years and they were family to her. She wanted back. They pulled the bureaucratic slow-roll on her, assuring her shed be back when the paperwork cleared. But they had no intention of reinstating her clearance. One day I walked up on a conversation where the programs security officer was reading from this ladys medical record and they were having a good laugh. I was appalled. Nobody had any right to see that psychology report and less still to discuss it with other employees. Classified project people tend to see the world in us vs. them terms. This poor lady was no longer us and had become, therefore, them. Because this lady didnt get her clearance reinstated they laid her off.
This experience has colored how I see doctors and the security establishment.
How does it impact your employability when youve officially had your weapons seized?
Bottom line: don’t talk to a witch doctor psycho-ologist.
there needs to be a court order for them to keep your guns, anything less is unconstitutional.
You can’t take stuff from anyone without letting them have their day in court.
“programs security officer was reading from this ladys medical record”
Hope you turned them in to HR!
Hahahahahah. That's a good one.
This is pretty much a lawless country. The system is corrupt.
Mental healthy ethical guidelines require the violation of a persons second amendment rights? Everyone has the right to take away someones Constitutional rights now days?/s
Federal law says “adjudicated mentally deficient.” It does not say “therepist has a hunch.”
If you can’t get your day in court, then this country is done for.
There was a time when “therapists” were called something else; family, friends, wise old neighbors, ministers etc. They were far more effective back then than they are today. Cheaper too.
Face it, this country is infested both with muzzies and now a bunch of f***ing NAZIS in white lab coats!! And both groups very much have an “us vs. them” attitude.
I hope when Obamacare really kicks in that we start to hear psychotherapists, psychiatrists, & psychologists all moaning & complaining about a massive falloff in business!
In the immortal words of The Duke, “Well, out here, pilgrim, a man learns to solve his own problems.”
On top of that, the courts are biased against the people anyway. A day in court, against a judge, is worthless too.
Exactly! Beat me to it.
just wait until they start paying a bounty for the names.
Arlington Heights man, police in dispute over confiscating his guns
“This is pretty much a lawless country. The system is corrupt.”
Good point. Where is the government actually working
within the constitution
They are not your friend.
Knows what to carry for every situation.
People - STOP GOING TO therapist...they are a waste of time and energy.
Life situations can be explained when one looks at cause and effect...find the cause and you’ll see the effect...it shouldn’t take someone else to sit there and listen to the indicators and then tell you why certain situations occur...that simple...
Even if one has a mental condition...then it must be dealt with - someone knows either it was present from birth -or brought on over time - or through some mitigating circumstance — but it all can be identified...never will let someone else deal with my problems that I bring into my life...
Take a guess at an employer's reaction to hearing that the police have been to your house to take away your guns. HR would NOT have a warm and fuzzy feeling about you, and would look for any excuse to get you out of there.
Arlington Heights man, police in dispute over confiscating his guns”
Thank you. The therapist wanted to read the case. This is even worse than I thought. Surely there’s an agenda at work here.
You’re very welcome. Let us know if he has further comments after reading the story. Thanks!
LOL! Seriously? That’s the way it’s supposed to be. Oddly the amount of hoops you would have to jump through to get your stuff back is huge. Stall and delay tactics go in to effect once they have your stuff. I know it ain’t right but unless you got money like nanny bloomers, it’d be a hard row to hoe. Don’t EVER talk to a counselor, therapist, psycho-babbler or any other mental health clown. They’re usually nuttier than their patients. If your GP asks you about your guns, just tell him you are only there for your broken thumb or whatever and nuthin’ else.
There are a lot of situations that a good therapist can help with. But in the vast majority of such cases, a walk in the woods or a day at the range can do just as much good. The difference is that until ammo prices went through the roof, the non-medical options were cheaper. Also, the woods and the range won't call the Gestapo to confiscate your guns. If you have to talk to someone, talk to someone you know and trust (hint: NOT a therapist/psychologist/psychiatrist!). Unless it's a chemical imbalance in the brain that requires medication - and that will not clear up on its own - today's weak version of doctor-patient confidentiality is too big a risk.
>> There was a time when therapists were called something else; family, friends, wise old neighbors, ministers etc.
Totally nailed it, Dan.
A gentleman at our gun club just had his CHL revoked because he supposedly had PTSD. He was a VN vet, but come on!
Doctor/patient confidentiality is a joke and a farce.
Lie like a dog. Never tell the truth. Always obfuscate, talk in circles, misdirect, offer false testimony and act in a dishonest manner.
To thine own self be true, but to others be a deep well of mystery.
I have a friend who is a shrink and he says the same thing, but he also adds: "that unfortunately, we don't all have friends and family that are willing to listen or give good advise. But there is a small percentage of society that really needs a shrink- not to listen, but to get them serious help, because there is something seriously wrong, e.g. crazy."
I don’t own any guns, but if I did, why would I tell people who might be able to take them away?
The bottom line is that it is important to plan strategically.
For example, if there is a need to give a relative your power of attorney, you had better trust them a lot, or you are asking for trouble. Or if you don’t trust them a lot, then you should consider transferring things they might covet to someone you trust *before* giving this relative power of attorney.
In this case, if you have a gun collection and fear confiscation on some excuse, it would not be unreasonable to place the collection in a trust, that if you ceded control would go to a trusted person who lives elsewhere, so they could not do a “same house” confiscation. As soon as the other trustee physically took charge of the collection, out of your residence, it could not be confiscated to keep it away from you.
Since all medical records are now government accessible (thanks to HIPAA), the assumption has to be that either state or federal law could be used to confiscate, based on *any* mental health care consideration. Say if your doctor gave you a prescription for an antidepressant or a tranquilizer, or any other psychoactive drug (even a psychoactive possible side effect).
there is no reason to talk to this class of “service provider”; the “service” they provide is of questionable value. You are way better off with a lawyer or a priest.
just saw a friend’s daughter have to move out with her dog because the city of overland park kansas claimed, on no evidence, that the dog was dangerous. However the dog’s vet says the dog is a sweetheart. I met the dog, and I have really strict ideas about what is acceptable and this dog was a doll.
However, the neighbor is has it in for them.
Bet on it.
The Calvin and Hobbs cartoon depicted a late-night bedroom scene where the two were talking about possible monsters under the bed.
Calvin: “Any monsters down there?”
Monsters: “No.” (other monster whispers “Nice going, Melvin”.)
Calvin: “I’m glad I bought this monster-killing Bazooka. I’m ready to use it.” (or something like that)
Hobbes whispering: “But you don’t have a monster-killing Bazooka.”
Calvin: “They lie. I lie.”
So it is with anyone (doc or layman) who asks me if I own any guns. I could go on a 2nd Amendment rant, or say it’s none of their damn business. Instead, I just blandly look them in the eye and lie “No”. Those I feel should know, do, the rest can go blow smoke.
I haven’t run into that question, but my doc has asked if I was unhappy (you KNOW where they’re going with that.). Of course, I am always Happy, Happy.
Not something I would want to do or look forward to. The judges in this country are now just as corrupt as the Zero regime. They will do what Dear Leader tells them to do. They are not on the side of justice. They are partisan hacks just as much as anyone in the Zero regime.
I’m a shrink [flame away, yawn], and have often worked with fairly heavy-duty illness in both voluntary, involuntary and forensic settings for a quarter century.
I’ve often been faced with actively suicidal or homicidal patients, and it varies whether there is any therapeutic alliance, ie “trust,” between me and a patient in the first place in these sorts of extreme situations.
Most, but not all, patients, even when quite ill, can be reasoned with to a certain degree, and can understand the basic concept, which I state to them directly, that “What’s important here is that nobody gets hurt.” That’s my professional, therapeutic and personal foundation, and almost everybody, no matter their mental state, gets it.
Most of the time, when a firearm at home or in the car presents even a hint of a significant situation, I discuss with the patient whether there are any friends or relatives we can contact who might be willing to keep the gun(s) in safekeeping until the person is safe to possess them again, and almost always this can be worked out so that the authorities are left out of it.
If I meet any hesitation at all, I simply reiterate - “What’s important here is that nobody gets hurt,” a bottom line we can both usually agree on. If necessary I will sometimes back that up with a matter of fact statement that I am obliged under the law to do what I can to make sure that nobody gets hurt, but that I’d prefer that he/she works with me to leave the authorities out of it.
Despite the acuity of the patients I often deal with, there are relatively few times I have had to involve the authorities. Never has a patient of mine gone on the use a firearm to kill themselves or anyone else, that I know of - knock on wood. And a handful of patients have - either then, or at a later point - thanked me for handling the matter in this way.
Communist Goals (1963) Congressional Record—Appendix, pp. A34-A35 January 10, 1963
# 39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.
Especially being a veteran in the VA system, I don’t trust any doctor, period.
So it goes like this: The anti-gunners get background checks passed and the ability to deny gun ownership to anyone who is on certain medications or is diagnosed as depressed or a related malady.
They can easily check your records and find you own a gun!! They look up your doctor and tell him (under threat of license revocation) to issue you an antidepressant or send you to a therapist for counseling, who will declare you 'depressed' (again, under threat of license revocation) and voila! they take your guns away. Soon, no one will be able to own guns!
Tell me this has not been 'focus group'ed by the libs.
In a previous life I did a lot of screening of psyh people, therapist psychologists etc., for jobs. I would NEVER tell any of them anything about my life period. A bigger bunch of unintelligent beings I have never met.
“Bottom line: dont talk to a witch doctor psycho-ologist.”
Agree. The MOMENT you confide a potential to any type of doctor or shrink, you put yourself at great risk. If you own guns, or want to own guns, you can consider that option being closed out to you. If you have kids and they are identified as having issues (rightly or wrongly), you can kiss goodbye their gun rights.
It’s a two-way street when it comes to stuff like this, and people needing help are going to THINK VERY HARD before getting it (although I’m convinced something like 90% or more of the customers of shrinks don’t need help at all, it’s just that they want someone to talk to and have money and/or insurance).
“There was a time when therapists were called something else; family, friends, wise old neighbors, ministers etc. They were far more effective back then than they are today. Cheaper too.”
SO TRUE. Being married to an immigrant, the term “therapist” doesn’t even exist in her vocabulary, or her extended family’s vocabulary. They DEAL WITH their problems themselves, or together, and they don’t need pills every 5 minutes of the day also.
America was once like that.
“If your GP asks you about your guns, just tell him you are only there for your broken thumb or whatever and nuthin else.”
Agree with everything you said but this.
If you’re asked, SIMPLY LIE (if you do have guns). In other words, say you don’t own any, particularly if they don’t have a paper trail to you. ANYTHING ELSE, like “none of your goddamn business” or “let’s not talk about that” actually puts in a worse boat than telling the truth, for not only are you a gun owner, you are one of those dangerous Tea Party types.
Today’s world is different. We MUST LIE and especially our KIDS MUST LIE to get by. We have an army of social workers, shrinks, liberals, gun-grabbers - whatever that are READY TO POUNCE if they can just get themselves an angle - like a kid who tells a teacher than dad spanks him. You MUST TRAIN both yourself and your kids to LIE - it’s not easy, we’re not Democrats, but the days of being treated in a just manner for lawful activities have, essentially, ended.
I’m a Vietnam vet & getting highly suspicious of docs/nurses asking VERY leading questions about how I am getting along, have I got any “issues” (when what is meant is problems), and which have nothing to do with “how would you describe your current state of health”.
Especially VA & state voc rehab with their questions. Guns aren’t on the questionaire yet but detailed questions about one’s drinking habits are (hint: more than 2 oz a week makes you a `heavy drinker’).
And of course, flippant or defiant answers mean that your attitude is noted. Under your social security number.
Psychoprofessionals are not only unintelligent about what goes on in someone else’s mind, but they are borderline psychopathic themselves, JMHO.
“Despite the acuity of the patients I often deal with, there are relatively few times I have had to involve the authorities. Never has a patient of mine gone on the use a firearm to kill themselves or anyone else, that I know of - knock on wood. And a handful of patients have - either then, or at a later point - thanked me for handling the matter in this way.”
The difference is that you’re on this site, which means you’re predisposed to protect people’s privacy and right. I doubt that’s the case with most people in the shrink world, at least if the psych majors that I went to school with at ESU are any indication - they were radical as hell.
So I do think that most of the advice on this thread holds, unless the person is lucky enough to be seeing you, or manages to find someone similar.
How about we call it “redirecting” your response. Or the ever in vogue “repurposing” your answer. We don’t want to outright call you a liar. LOL!
“How about we call it redirecting your response. Or the ever in vogue repurposing your answer. We dont want to outright call you a liar. LOL!”
No, it’s lying. We told our kids that if they want to get a new set of parents, all they have to do is tell some nice adult (cop, teacher, social worker) about how we apply discipline. And to make it clear, we make sure they understand it is FINE TO LIE in those circumstances.
And we tell them what the circumstance may be. A typical scenario is the kid is isolated with the social workers and they tell him that all he has to do is rat out his parents and everything will be JUST FINE. Of course the exact opposite is true - by keeping quiet, he gets his parents back - ratting them out means new mom and new dad. It’s a tough situation for an adult and very tough for a kid, but that is how they must be raised in our Brave New World.
You missed a critical one in there. How many pharmaceuticals *might* have psychological side effects?
“The use of psychotropic drugs by adult Americans increased 22 percent from 2001 to 2010, with one in five adults now taking at least one psychotropic medication, according to industry data.” - APA
Percent of persons using at least one prescription drug in the past month: 48.5% (2007-2010).
Common and infrequent psychological side effect to *non* psychotropic prescription drugs *may* include: depression, anxiety, hallucinations, insomnia, amnesia, vision and other sensory problems, compulsive behavior, suicidal ideation (suicidal thoughts), paranoia, anger or rages, addiction, and loss of inhibition.