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Million Engineers Struggling to Find a Job
Townhall.com ^ | June 23, 2013 | Mike Shedlock

Posted on 06/23/2013 6:06:17 AM PDT by Kaslin

It's tough to find a job everywhere: in the US, in China, in Europe, and in India.

Think education is the answer? I don't.

Economic Times reports amillion engineers in India struggling to get placed in an extremely challenging market

Somewhere between a fifth to a third of the million students graduating out of India's engineering colleges run the risk of being unemployed. Others will take jobs well below their technical qualifications in a market where there are few jobs for India's overflowing technical talent pool. Beset by a flood of institutes (offering a varying degree of education) and a shrinking market for their skills, India's engineers are struggling to subsist in an extremely challenging market.

According to multiple estimates, India trains around 1.5 million engineers, which is more than the US and China combined. However, two key industries hiring these engineers -- information technology and manufacturing -- are actually hiring fewer people than before.

For example, India's IT industry, a sponge for 50-75% of these engineers will hire 50,000 fewer people this year, according to Nasscom. Manufacturing, too, is facing a similar stasis, say HR consultants and skills evaluation firms.

According to data from AICTE, the regulator for technical education in India, there were 1,511 engineering colleges across India, graduating over 550,000 students back in 2006-07. Fuelled by fast growth, especially in the $110 billion outsourcing market, a raft of new colleges sprung up -- since then, the number of colleges and graduates have doubled.
Engineers Churned Out in Spades



So what does India do with those excess engineers?

Some end up in the US on work visas because the US citizens purportedly do not have the right skills. In reality, there are plenty of skills here, but foreign workers will work for a lot less. Since companies can hire a programmer from India or Russia for 1/3 the cost of a US worker, that's what happens.

Training more engineers, here, or in China, or in India will not help. There is a glut of high-tech talent.

On Tuesday, wroteEpic Glut of Graduates Depresses Wages; Fake Job Offers Taint Hiring Statistics.

The article was about a glut of graduates in China with no job, but it could just as easily been about India or the US. This is what I said:
How is [the situation in China] different than the average liberal arts major in the US expecting the world at their doorstep just because they have a useless degree that prepares them to do nothing more than work as a part-time retail clerk, 25 hours a week, dumped into the Obamacare system?

Yet, we are told education is the answer, without ever addressing the questions "for who? at what cost? in what field?"

These articles were purportedly about China. Change the names and faces and the stories are not much different than you can find right here in the US, in Italy, in France, or anywhere else in a slow-grow global economy.

After growing at an astronomical rate for years, the cost of education is going to plunge. Job statistics will force that outcome.
If education was the answer, there would not be millions of engineers looking for jobs.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Editorial
KEYWORDS: economy; educationreform; engineer; itengineers; jobs; mikeshedlock; networkengineers
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To: Lazamataz

I agree and hence the “maybe” I guess I was being overly generous :-) Just in these last five years I’ve seen a massive increase in new frameworks, application servers, languages, databases and database ORM solutions, scripting languages, build systems and on and on.

The only thing I could imagine anyone learning in college if I had to design a CS program would be a language (Java or C++), patterns (like Enterprise Integration Patterns) and continuous build systems. Maybe throw in a little hardware as background knowledge along with maybe some PM fundamentals and design methodologies (scrum, waterfall, etc).

I think what many fail to understand is software developers are the producers, not the consumers. I view the company I work for as the customer and I produce for them. If I produce a crappy product they show me the door.

The problem with off-shoring was it assumed the producer was the PM or management and 9 out of 10 times they didn’t have a clue what was needed to build and maintain a given system. Instead of listening to the actual producers they went off half cocked and now the chickens are coming home to roost.


51 posted on 06/23/2013 7:29:13 AM PDT by RockyMtnMan
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To: Mr. K

“But it’s OK - I make a ton of money fixing their crapola software”

You noticed that also? Up until recently I spent a good chunk of my time either fixing bad code, trying to keep my coders on schedule or having them understand the specifications on what we were lookin for.

There are some hot shot coders offshore. Problem is most of the time they will review the specs and code what they think you mean, not what you want them to actually do.

Much easier to hire inexperienced kids out of college and train them. Plus they are local and I don’t have to worry about 9pm conference calls.


52 posted on 06/23/2013 7:31:33 AM PDT by EQAndyBuzz (The reason we own guns is to protect ourselves from those wanting to take our guns from us.)
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To: RFEngineer

Oh my! I think you’re right! Though I am not an IT professional I am an engineer of some 40 years. What one person said, if you are really an engineer you have the training in math, physics, chemistry, materials, thermodynamics, electricity, fluid flow, statics and dynamics and economics to eventually solve problems outside your field of expertise.

Engineering is the application of physical principles to economic means. Our study is often long on the physical principles part and short on the economic means.

My view after all these years is that engineers need more of two things added to the curriculum though it would make the program at least one or two semesters longer.... to which I say, tough. You can always ditch the humanities junk and save 6 to 9 hours. Frankly, the only thing I remember about my humanities classes is that there were girls in them! Add some business, finance and economics classes then require them to all enlist, preferably in the Marines, to develop leadership skills which first includes learning how to follow and take direction.

If I were to advise a youngster what discipline of engineering to study I believe it would be Mechanical with some electives in Civil and Electrical even if you only audit the course since so many have prerequisites. Study is costly but I believe we miss opportunities for study without credit. My undergraduate study even included things like agricultural economics... all about trading, commodities and futures. I believe engineers live in silos and need to look outward of the discipline for learning and understanding.

There are lots of engineering schools in the world that have the name only. Sadly, even janitors are sometimes referred to as engineers and like so many we see from some schools have the title without the credentials.


53 posted on 06/23/2013 7:33:36 AM PDT by Sequoyah101
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To: Lazamataz
Nossir. Maybe someday, but not now

Yeah. But I betcha that K-9 from Doctor Who could do it.

54 posted on 06/23/2013 7:34:51 AM PDT by VRW Conspirator (The Lefties can drink Kool-Aid; I will drink Tea.)
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To: Lazamataz

you don’t need code (syntax) examples or obscure C# functions- you need to know probem solving ability

I went to an interview and they asked me to write a utility (in pseudo code) for reversing a set of strings- they said I had the worst syntax errors (I desperately need the Visual Studio environment to be in for correct syntax) but I was also the only one who got it right, on the first try, in the shortest time they had ever seen (by half)

If you can solve the problem, THEN it does not matter (as much) how good or bad your software writing skills are, you’ve solved the problem.

I have met syntax gurus who can’t program for nothing... We had one guy who spent a week trying to use fancy XML functions to insert elements and attributes into an XML string- I showed him how to write it in a string.Format() in 5 minutes


55 posted on 06/23/2013 7:35:26 AM PDT by Mr. K (There are lies, damned lies, statistics, and democrat talking points.)
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To: RockyMtnMan
I view the company I work for as the customer

This has been the single greatest contributer to my success. :)

I would add to your excellent comments (especially the part about learning patterns) is that the most scarce and treasured skill in technology is people-skills. I am fortunate in that regard. :)

56 posted on 06/23/2013 7:36:01 AM PDT by Lazamataz ("AP" clearly stands for American Pravda. Our news media has become completely and proudly Soviet.)
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To: Lazamataz

there is a formula I like to quote

GOOD DESIGN + BAD PROGRAMMER = GOOD PROGRAM

BAD DESIGN + GREAT PROGRAMMER = BAD PROGRAM


57 posted on 06/23/2013 7:36:22 AM PDT by Mr. K (There are lies, damned lies, statistics, and democrat talking points.)
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To: Mr. K

Congrats! I remember having a tech test where they put me on a computer with a blank project and a full VS IDE with SQL and gave me one hour to complete a web solution. Not only did I complete the project, I put in rudimentary hacker-proofing, full db-based error tracking and reporting, and prepped it for SSRS, using Linq-2-SQL (They had not installed true SQL Business Intelligence tools or I would have whipped up the simplest kind of report). They said it was the very best job they had ever seen for over 50 candidates they had tested. They offered me the job on-the-spot.


58 posted on 06/23/2013 7:40:11 AM PDT by Lazamataz ("AP" clearly stands for American Pravda. Our news media has become completely and proudly Soviet.)
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To: Mr. K; RockyMtnMan

I am pinging Admin Mod to change the title of this thread to “When Programming Geeks Collide”. LOL


59 posted on 06/23/2013 7:41:33 AM PDT by Lazamataz ("AP" clearly stands for American Pravda. Our news media has become completely and proudly Soviet.)
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To: Lazamataz

The best way to interview someone is to give him a block of broken code and ask him to fix it (nothing that shouldn’t take 5 minutes for someone who knows what he is doing) AND a white board pseudo-code problem to solve.

Whenever I interview and someone asks me an obscure C# function my standard response is “I never used it, are you using that?” Followed by my own questions I like to keep handy about obscure C# info


60 posted on 06/23/2013 7:41:51 AM PDT by Mr. K (There are lies, damned lies, statistics, and democrat talking points.)
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To: redgolum

“I have talked with quite a few other companies, who have similar views. They view socialized medicine as the cheaper option.”

That does not make them socialists, that makes them businessmen who do not view the provision of bear-hug government-approved health insurance as part of their core expertise.

What they are saying is healthcare should not be the responsibility of the employer. They are right. If that means the people who vote for socialized medicine get to experience it (even if some are their employees) so be it.

Why should your employer ensure you have health care? Isn’t that your responsibility?


61 posted on 06/23/2013 7:42:04 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: Lazamataz

LOL- you sound a LOT like me

(that’s a good thing)


62 posted on 06/23/2013 7:42:45 AM PDT by Mr. K (There are lies, damned lies, statistics, and democrat talking points.)
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To: Sequoyah101

My hat is off to you for a 40 year career as an engineer. Your insight is enlightening.


63 posted on 06/23/2013 7:43:08 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: Mr. K

Good technique. I shall remember that. I have had many interviews where the lead programmer had a vexing problem and asked me the subject matter (in the effort to catch a clue on the problem). When I detect that, I borrow from an old commercial, smile, lean back, and say “Hire me and I’ll tell you.” :)


64 posted on 06/23/2013 7:43:28 AM PDT by Lazamataz ("AP" clearly stands for American Pravda. Our news media has become completely and proudly Soviet.)
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To: Mr. K
LOL- you sound a LOT like me (that’s a good thing)

True... but frankly, that should frighten you. XD

65 posted on 06/23/2013 7:45:07 AM PDT by Lazamataz ("AP" clearly stands for American Pravda. Our news media has become completely and proudly Soviet.)
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To: RockyMtnMan

I am not a degreed engineer, in fact I am a public high school graduate, my only formal education beyond that having been a 38 week electronics school in the Navy. I do however understand what you are saying. I have done a lot of projects which I constructed mentally and then recognized the flaw in my plan and reconstructed mentally before actually starting the physical project and without putting anything on paper. I did maintenance on small offset printing equipment for thirty or more years and I can still visualize one of those machines as if it is on a movie screen in front of me. I can start it up, see the parts move and even section it to see the internal parts and tell you which are moving clockwise and which counterclockwise. If I really concentrate I can “hear” it, not as clearly as I see it but I can still bring it back. Apparently most people are unable to do this. I used to do the “celebrity cryptogram” in the local newspaper and reached the point that in many cases I could look at it for a while and then read it off without ever picking up a pencil.


66 posted on 06/23/2013 7:46:27 AM PDT by RipSawyer (I was born on Earth, what planet is this?)
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To: lurk

That holy cow elimination is going to require more than just engineering!


67 posted on 06/23/2013 7:48:02 AM PDT by RipSawyer (I was born on Earth, what planet is this?)
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To: Lazamataz

LOL, we are geeking it up. You may not realize or remember but you and I have a very long history on this particular topic.


68 posted on 06/23/2013 7:48:59 AM PDT by RockyMtnMan
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To: RockyMtnMan

I have a recollection of that. I love our kind of people. :)


69 posted on 06/23/2013 7:52:03 AM PDT by Lazamataz ("AP" clearly stands for American Pravda. Our news media has become completely and proudly Soviet.)
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To: Sequoyah101
You can always ditch the humanities junk and save 6 to 9 hours

Amen brother. I almost had it out with my Humanities professor. It was my attitude of course. But at the time I realized the University/College system is gamed. What the heck does an engineer major need Humanities for? Oh, to give some loser a Doctorate and tenure, oops, es-cuuuuuse me.

There are two skills/characteristics that are always in short supply: Leadership and people skills. Of course work ethic helps too. And can I get an engineer that can write a coherent and legible report?

70 posted on 06/23/2013 7:57:29 AM PDT by VRW Conspirator (The Lefties can drink Kool-Aid; I will drink Tea.)
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To: RipSawyer

You are right that most people lack the ability, I am the same way. However as I get older I’ve found it more and more difficult (not impossible) to perform those visualizations. I don’t know if I can attribute it to just age or the various alcoholic beverages I’ve consumed over my lifetime. I live a very healthy lifestyle and I know that helps but it is very unnerving to feel like a treasured skill may be waning.

The ability to visualize the entire system has prevented so many coding disasters over my career I couldn’t count. Hopefully you don’t experience the degradation like I have but unfortunately it might be a unavoidable certainty.


71 posted on 06/23/2013 7:58:45 AM PDT by RockyMtnMan
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To: ctdonath2

“Don’t expect an optical engineer to design sewer systems.”

What crappy outlook that would lead to!


72 posted on 06/23/2013 8:07:14 AM PDT by Nik Naym (It's not my fault... I have compulsive smartass disorder.)
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To: PapaBear3625

Doesn’t India have a lot of trains?

So what’s the problem, featherbedding?


73 posted on 06/23/2013 8:09:12 AM PDT by Scrambler Bob ( Concerning bo -- that refers to the president. If I capitalize it, I mean the dog.)
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To: Lazamataz

Agree. I’ve said that myself for the last 35 years.


74 posted on 06/23/2013 8:11:53 AM PDT by Scrambler Bob ( Concerning bo -- that refers to the president. If I capitalize it, I mean the dog.)
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To: RockyMtnMan

I am sixty nine now and the only skill I use for income any longer is talking on the telephone. I certainly don’t have the full mental abilities I had at 18 but I can still visualize. I can actually recall details of a stream valley on the little farm where I grew up even though that part has been under a fish pond for nearly fifty years now. I can see the steep slope I used to ride down on a draft horse when I would unhitch him and ride him back to the barn at noon when I would feed him and go and eat my own midday meal. I had to be very careful not to slip forward onto his neck as I was riding bareback. He was so big with such a broad, flat back that my legs could barely hold onto him, I was a preteen at the time, maybe eleven years old. The horse was jet black with a white diamond on his forehead and white stocking forelegs with the long white hairs, much like the first team visible in this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZErW1QoAn1w


75 posted on 06/23/2013 8:17:30 AM PDT by RipSawyer (I was born on Earth, what planet is this?)
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To: 3Fingas
We can stop providing subsidies and low interest loans to students studying worthless majors.

I agree.

76 posted on 06/23/2013 8:30:12 AM PDT by Tax-chick ("The world understands that Putin means it and Obama doesn't." ~Mark Steyn)
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To: Kaslin

This is not new. It’s been going on in India for thirty years. I heard stories from Indian engineers years ago about graduates having to work at menial jobs because there weren’t any job openings for engineers. Things are changing, but if they ever hope to achieve what the U.S. has achieved, they will need to make some cultural changes. Unfortunately for them, such changes are usually very slow.

Few people in the U.S. seem to appreciate that the culture of the Americans as it evolved in the 1700s and 1800s is responsible for the tremendous economic growth, of which we are the beneficiaries today.

Professors who hate capitalism and the concept of private property have claimed for a hundred years that we are wealthy because we took advantage of poorer cultures. While abuse did occur, it doesn’t explain our wealth.

Our wealth is primarily because of our cultural foundation. Concepts of right and wrong from our Judeo-Christian heritage. Concepts of law and private property which our forefathers brought with them from England. Concepts of liberty and individual rights which became popular in Europe and America in the eighteenth century. Patent law. And this foundation is being destroyed today by the elites in our country.


77 posted on 06/23/2013 8:41:01 AM PDT by Rocky (Obama is pure evil.)
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To: Tax-chick
The answer is for American schools to produce more qualified Engineers and fewer Psychology grads. (3 Fingas)

If people were using their own money to buy their college education, more of them would choose to study something that would help them earn a living. As long as they're spending OPM, why not major in Underwater Basketweaving?

Ma'am, I don't wish to be disrespectful, but so many Freepers seem to think that all any college student needs to do to ensure employment after graduation is change his major from, say, sociology to engineering. The problem is aptitude and educational background. I cannot remember the exact number but not too ago someone posted the opinion of an engineering professor that at his university maybe 15 percent of the student body could handle the mathematical requirements in the engineering school.

One has to understand that few students have the ability to understand higher mathematics and the aptitudes to handle, say, spatial relationships, that many engineers have to deal with. Add in the educational background (maybe the students took almost no math classes in high school; how are the professors going to teach remedial math as they go along in any engineering course?) So saying the answer lies in having students just change their major is not the answer, IMHO.

78 posted on 06/23/2013 8:49:39 AM PDT by OldPossum
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To: Nik Naym

LOL!


79 posted on 06/23/2013 9:20:55 AM PDT by Lazamataz ("AP" clearly stands for American Pravda. Our news media has become completely and proudly Soviet.)
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To: RFEngineer

You won’t get an argument from me on that point. I go a little further and separate engineers into two camps - analytical and synthetical. Although we all do a little of both, you can be a better at analysis, or better at design. In my experience, the foreign-trained engineers are more adept on the analytical side, but are not often very creative.


80 posted on 06/23/2013 9:23:57 AM PDT by omni-scientist
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To: Lazamataz; Mr. K
Re: that’s because they hand out engineering degrees and doctorates in India like candy and we import these idiots.

While this is true, I have two observations:

One: Unless the Indian national assimilates to our culture and business customs, they don't do well. The cultural differences are too great.

Two: The Indians I have worked with have been quite skilled, but perhaps this is a minority. I do know that India has very severe corruption problems, so paper credentials are not a useful gauge of their skill.


One: Agreed

Two: Not in my experience. Those skilled are a very small minority. Most couldn't program themselves into or out of a paper bag. I have many friends in the field with the same observation.

Three: On the whole, paid way less than Americans. Have suppressed rates at least by 1/3.
Many morph into illegals. And work the same way the Mexicans do - through companies that vouch for them and sell their services at such a low price, they are subsidized by tax payers with government freebies.

They are very comfortable with government freebies. India is a very socialist, big government, crony 'capitalist' country.

Large corporations love them because they are CHEAP.
81 posted on 06/23/2013 10:00:39 AM PDT by khelus
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To: khelus

Indian programmers are good...if you detail the programming specs down to a T.

Heck if you spend that much time detailing the specs, you might as well go ahead and code it yourself.


82 posted on 06/23/2013 10:01:43 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Kaslin

India could solve this engineer surplus in short order by just easing the rules by which entrepreneurs can operate. They would have a huge economic and technological boom.


83 posted on 06/23/2013 10:01:49 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy (Best WoT news at rantburg.com)
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To: Will88
with the idea that many would be used to syphon off jobs from more advanced nations, both through plant relocations and the outsourcing of jobs where the engineer can do the work from distant locations.

That may be true of China, but in india there is no one making those kind of central decisions

the logic for indian students is simple -- engineers make more money, so head for that field...

84 posted on 06/23/2013 10:20:07 AM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros>Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: Maine Mariner; Lazamataz
I think it means companies can hire engineers from India or Russia who remain in India or Russia for 1/3 of the cost of a US worker.

I should add that during the past few years, companies are returning to the US to manufacture goods (or at least part of the assembly). The supply chain was getting to long and costly (contacts, monitoring workers in China and so forth).


Nope that would be 1/3 less in the US due to special tax waivers, i.e. paying no or very partial income tax.

I don't know about Russia, but in India you can fire for less that some one fully taxed in the US pays in taxes.
85 posted on 06/23/2013 10:59:24 AM PDT by khelus
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To: RFEngineer

“Any true engineer, if properly educated and trained, should be able to understand and practically apply concepts (at some basic level) to just about any other engineering discipline.”

Capable, yes, given time and study.

Expect to apply for the job and have a shot at getting it, no.


86 posted on 06/23/2013 11:30:08 AM PDT by ctdonath2 (Making good people helpless doesn't make bad people harmless.)
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To: Mr. K; Lazamataz

I hate whiteboard coding interviews. Enough that I’ve taken a sub-notebook computer with me to interviews. One in particular: they asked me to write some code on the whiteboard, knowing it would take some time; I popped open the computer and Eclipse, told them (several people at once) to just continue the interview while I coded. Fielded four lines of questioning and still had running code in 10 minutes. Got the job (turned it down).


87 posted on 06/23/2013 11:51:52 AM PDT by ctdonath2 (Making good people helpless doesn't make bad people harmless.)
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To: Cronos
That may be true of China, but in india there is no one making those kind of central decisions

It doesn't have to a central decision, but just many individuals or groups of individuals who recognized that training more engineers would result in more opportunities to attract outsourced jobs from more advanced economies, plus provide engineers for internal growth. The article points that out as what happened in India.

According to data from AICTE, the regulator for technical education in India, there were 1,511 engineering colleges across India, graduating over 550,000 students back in 2006-07. Fuelled by fast growth, especially in the $110 billion outsourcing market, a raft of new colleges sprung up -- since then, the number of colleges and graduates have doubled.

88 posted on 06/23/2013 12:15:02 PM PDT by Will88
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To: Hoodat

Check out their Winter Festival where they all build Incredible things out of snow and ice.
Course not a lot else to do cept ride snowmobiles or study for about 6 months or build ice sculptures


89 posted on 06/23/2013 12:22:34 PM PDT by Joe Boucher ((FUBO))
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To: ctdonath2
Exactly, did I&C, Electrical, and Chem stuff after being dragged into strange areas that don’t require welding and pipe. Gotta do what you gotta do.
90 posted on 06/23/2013 12:39:07 PM PDT by Little Bill (A)
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To: VRW Conspirator

But the humanities help them to have people skills? Nah.

Ditto on a decent report and writing skills. Get it down to one page with a recommendation first, problem statement next, support third and necessary appendices of supporting calculations and information.

I used to say that the work ethic can be managed... if you can’t get it you can’t stay. Oh for those days again. From time-to-time good firing with relative prejudice does wonders for attitudes of the remainder.

As for humanities, in one class my buddy and I forgot to attend since that was optional. Missed the tests but remembered the final, crammed and came out OK. I don’t think we had the proper attitude there either.

By the way, I have read most of the classics on my own and took a few learnings from them. Engineers have also been know to study history and some are pretty good musicians it being that math skills and music have some relationship.


91 posted on 06/23/2013 12:58:52 PM PDT by Sequoyah101
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To: Sequoyah101
From time-to-time good firing with relative prejudice does wonders for attitudes of the remainder.

No lie. As my friend Kevin used to say, "Ya kill a few chickens, and the monkeys get in line..."

LOL

92 posted on 06/23/2013 1:20:28 PM PDT by Lazamataz ("AP" clearly stands for American Pravda. Our news media has become completely and proudly Soviet.)
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To: dfwgator
Indian programmers are good...if you detail the programming specs down to a T.

Heck if you spend that much time detailing the specs, you might as well go ahead and code it yourself.


Absolutely ! And let the compiler catch the typos.

ROFL
93 posted on 06/23/2013 2:24:11 PM PDT by khelus
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To: OldPossum; 3Fingas
Re:The answer is for American schools to produce more qualified Engineers and fewer Psychology grads. (3 Fingas)
If people were using their own money to buy their college education, more of them would choose to study something that would help them earn a living. As long as they're spending OPM, why not major in Underwater Basketweaving?

Ma'am, I don't wish to be disrespectful, but so many Freepers seem to think that all any college student needs to do to ensure employment after graduation is change his major from, say, sociology to engineering. The problem is aptitude and educational background. I cannot remember the exact number but not too ago someone posted the opinion of an engineering professor that at his university maybe 15 percent of the student body could handle the mathematical requirements in the engineering school.

One has to understand that few students have the ability to understand higher mathematics and the aptitudes to handle, say, spatial relationships, that many engineers have to deal with. Add in the educational background (maybe the students took almost no math classes in high school; how are the professors going to teach remedial math as they go along in any engineering course?) So saying the answer lies in having students just change their major is not the answer, IMHO.


Thanks for pointing this out. The progressive idea that anyone can do anything has made serious inroads into our culture.

In addition, the US has always graduated more than enough engineers and STEM workers.

Another item ignored is that there is NO shortage of STEM workers. There wasn't even a shortage of IT people for the Y2K conversions. In addition to new graduates, there are plenty of experienced unemployed and underemployed americans with STEM degrees.
94 posted on 06/23/2013 3:17:44 PM PDT by khelus
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To: khelus
....but so many Freepers seem to think that all any college student needs to do to ensure employment after graduation is change his major from, say, sociology to engineering....

I never said that everyone could pass Engineering. In fact, I said that most of these students would be better off going to vocational school. I did say that a degree in Engineering was worth something; whereas, the majority of students study Liberal Arts, which, depending on the quality of schooling received, isn't worth as much as a STEM major.

.....In addition, the US has always graduated more than enough engineers and STEM workers....

If that's true we don't need to import some many via H1B. I tend to think the labor supply and demand varies greatly with location. I see plenty of adds looking for Engineers in Texas. Even if you don't get a job in that field, Math/Engineer majors are in great demand in the public schools. They don't have enough teachers with those skills. So, I really think people with STEM majors are much more in demand than some people suggest. I think a lot of the problem with finding work for some in STEM is that their skills are not up to date or American companies don't want to pay them good wages when they can outsource a lot of this work overseas for less.
95 posted on 06/23/2013 3:51:23 PM PDT by 3Fingas (Sons and Daughters of Freedom, Committee of Correspondence)
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To: RockyMtnMan
"Software development is as much an art as it is a profession."

ANY human endeavor fits that criterion. EVERY science has an "art" factor, including the hardest of sciences, and every art has a technology basis. There is no such animal as the "Two Cultures" (attempting to separate science/technology from "art").

Most GOOD scientists and engineers in the past (and still today) are also capable in some or other art (how many top physicists, for instance, played some musical instrument or other, others have written novels, produced plays, etc., etc.). So the "science" part of the mythical "two cultures" has retained its connection to "the arts".

The same cannot be said for the "art" side....most of those these days are technologically illiterate..but in the past any painter had to formulate his own paints..which forced him to keep his hand in the technology side. Likewise for the other arts. BUT, the BEST artists today "still" have a tech connection, and utilize it to enhance their works.

96 posted on 06/23/2013 4:25:59 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog
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To: 3Fingas

There’s a good reason petroleum engineers are highly paid and often in short supply.

Location.

Most of them work in places where the wife and kids do not want to live, or, they are often off shore for weeks at a time.

Much the same for chemical engineers.

More and more wealthy countries forbid construction of new refineries and chemical plants.

Only one solution - set up shop in Third World countries.


97 posted on 06/24/2013 12:54:04 AM PDT by zeestephen
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To: Lazamataz
Re: “Software people get the same rates here, whether they are foreign nationals or domestic citizens.”

I don't disagree, Laz, but you tell only part of the story.

The surplus of foreign labor in software engineering has put a ceiling of around $90,000 on above average code writers.

Adjusted for inflation, their pay level has gone up less than 1% per year since 2000, quite odd, since they are allegedly so hard to find.

Another issue - USA college students.

American kids may be lazy, but they aren't stupid.

Why would an above average American student major in software engineering when his pay will cap out in 7 years, and some kid from India will take his job away in 15 years?

98 posted on 06/24/2013 1:26:06 AM PDT by zeestephen
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To: zeestephen

Well done. You’ve got me thinking about my own career. Yes, I, too, seem capped.


99 posted on 06/24/2013 2:19:41 AM PDT by Lazamataz ("AP" clearly stands for American Pravda. Our news media has become completely and proudly Soviet.)
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To: Lazamataz

Yes that is the truth in most places, but no one seems to wan to hear it.

I was in India recently and you can’t travel a mile without seeing an engineering school. The problem is they have very little domestic demand, quality of the fly-by-night schools is questionable, and engineering is the only way up most Indians see for themselves.


100 posted on 06/24/2013 2:35:45 AM PDT by Woodman
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