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For Obamacare to Work, Everyone Must Be In
NY Times ^ | Aug 3, 2013 | By ROBERT H. FRANK

Posted on 08/03/2013 1:43:23 PM PDT by Jim Robinson

TWO beliefs continue to shape debate on Obamacare. First, pre-existing medical conditions shouldn’t prevent people from obtaining affordable health insurance. And second, people who don’t want health insurance shouldn’t be forced by the government to purchase it.

These may seem to be reasonable positions. But they are incompatible. That’s been shown by historical events, and it’s now being strikingly confirmed by recent experience in the emerging Obamacare insurance exchanges.

The crux of the matter is what economists call the adverse-selection problem. Uninsured people with pre-existing conditions often face tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars in out-of-pocket medical costs annually. If insurers charged everyone the same rate, buying coverage would be far more attractive financially for people with chronic illnesses than for healthy people. And as healthy policyholders began dropping out of the insured pool, it would become increasingly composed of sick people, forcing insurers to raise their rates.

But higher rates make insurance even less attractive for healthy people, causing even more of them to drop out. Before long, coverage would become too expensive for almost everyone.

The adverse-selection problem explains why almost no countries leave health care provision to unregulated private insurance markets. It also predicts that requiring private insurance companies to charge the same rates to everyone will make it prohibitively expensive for most people to buy individual health insurance.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Extended News; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: abortion; communism; deathpanels; dictator; fascism; marxism; obama; obamacare; socialism; tyranny; unamerican; unconstitutional; zerocare
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To: Jim Robinson

Not to fear, there will be subsidies for many people. Oh, you still will have to write a check for the full monthly insurance premium. But the government will catch you next time you file a tax return with a tax credit. So it’s dog food 11 months of the year.

The millennials will so not go for this. I guess they could just reduce deductions from their checks which could cause penalties and severely reduce tax revenue.


51 posted on 08/03/2013 2:38:48 PM PDT by Mike Darancette (Fight the culture of nothing.)
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda

So whats the problem with paying 20 grand a year for the third rate plan?

hmmm. So, I pay 20 grand a year to be covered, THEN MORE co pays and deductables and I use the insurance?

Whats not to like?


52 posted on 08/03/2013 2:39:02 PM PDT by bkaycee (John 3:16)
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To: Jim Robinson

Bttt


53 posted on 08/03/2013 2:39:52 PM PDT by digger48
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To: matt04
no doubt...
54 posted on 08/03/2013 2:41:28 PM PDT by Chode (Stand UP and Be Counted, or line up and be numbered - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: Sacajaweau

Problem is, the kids are too ignorant and indoctrinated to know that the government is totally inept at running anything.


55 posted on 08/03/2013 2:42:28 PM PDT by dforest (BR)
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To: Jim Robinson

Just another attempt for the ‘haves’ to pay for the ‘have not’s.


56 posted on 08/03/2013 2:42:49 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Pr 14:34 Righteousness exalteth a nation:but sin is a reproach to any people)
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To: elpadre

Coverage for people with dire existing conditions isn’t insurance, it’s just a way to pay for their treatment. It may be what the country wants to do, but it is not insuring against potential loss if the probability of loss is 100%. It is just bearing the cost.


57 posted on 08/03/2013 2:43:54 PM PDT by Old North State
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To: Political Junkie Too
We're already seeing the growth of "Concierge Medicine" where, for a fee, one can get enhanced medical services.

There is already a shortage of physicians in the US, and this is a result of decisions that were made regarding the supply of physicians 20 years ago. To undo it would take another 20 years. That's if they started tomorrow, and they haven't yet discovered that the supply of health care isn't elastic. Obamacare is destined to fail.

Following the "Law of Unintended Consequences", once Obamacare is fully implemented, there should be fewer people covered by health insurance and at a higher cost than was the case before.

58 posted on 08/03/2013 2:44:08 PM PDT by Sooth2222 ("Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of congress. But I repeat myself." M.Twain)
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To: onyx
text massages

aweiner@rubbit.com

59 posted on 08/03/2013 2:44:49 PM PDT by humblegunner
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To: dforest

Should be interesting to see all the twenty and thirty something’s Obama worshipers when their mandatory premiums double.


60 posted on 08/03/2013 2:45:49 PM PDT by bkaycee (John 3:16)
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To: elpadre

Not quite. He said he would fundamentally change America. I think he has. He said he would get us out of Iraq. He didn’t mention he would do it on a technicality but he did end the war there.


61 posted on 08/03/2013 2:46:42 PM PDT by EandH Dad (sleeping giants wake up REALLY grumpy)
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To: Jim Robinson

Even if everyone is in it, it will still fail. Just take a bit longer.


62 posted on 08/03/2013 2:48:01 PM PDT by GeronL
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To: Revolting cat!

I got called for Jury duty a few years ago, and just about every single case they called me for was for malpractice and I would get into arguments with the lawyers “This is why our health insurance is through the roof because of bottom feeders like you” lol (I really said that) One guys face turned beet red, I thought he was going to clock me “They deserve to be compensated! They deserve to be compensated!” That’s their favorite word “compensated” They never ever say “paid”. These freakin’ John Edwards type slimebags are making more than the doctors! What’s wrong with this picture? Don’t get me wrong, not all doctors are saints and if the doc is really a F-up he should pay, but come on...EVERY case in court is malpractice? WHAT?


63 posted on 08/03/2013 2:48:14 PM PDT by GrandJediMasterYoda (Someday our schools will teach the difference between "lose" and "loose")
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To: onyx

LOL! I read right through it and didn’t notice.

Massages might be something that they will look into :)


64 posted on 08/03/2013 2:50:11 PM PDT by RedMDer (http://www.dontfundobamacare.com/)
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To: Jim Robinson
As experience in most countries around the world has confirmed, it is a profound source of market failure that renders unregulated insurance markets a catastrophically ineffective way of providing access to health care.

Just the other day the State of Ohio officially announced that health premiums under OsamaObamaCare will rise by 41%.I wonder how Comrade Bob sees that announcement fitting onto the "catastrophically" scale.Not that *he* has to worry about that thanks to the fact that he's surely been exempted from that train wreck as a member of the rich,powerful and "connected".

65 posted on 08/03/2013 2:53:30 PM PDT by Gay State Conservative (If Obama Had A City It Would Look Like Detroit.)
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To: Sacajaweau
Here's the problem. The government shouldn't be in the health care/insurance business.

Agreed. Unfortunately, for nobama's plan to work, it must be.

66 posted on 08/03/2013 2:55:57 PM PDT by upchuck (To the faceless, jack-booted government bureaucrat who just scanned this post: SCREW YOU!)
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To: ThunderSleeps

The giant glaring error is a basic economic principle; pouring money into anything makes it more expensive. If the government subsidized hamburgers, the price would skyrocket. It’s that basic. Pouring government money into healthcare to make it more affordable was the wrong thing to do. Health care costs would plummet if certain things were done. Mainly stop the mandates.


67 posted on 08/03/2013 2:55:57 PM PDT by EandH Dad (sleeping giants wake up REALLY grumpy)
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To: Jim Robinson

For Obamacare to Work, Everyone Must Be Insane


68 posted on 08/03/2013 2:57:34 PM PDT by 867V309
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To: RetiredTexasVet

Exactly. Why do you think Obama is implementing ‘Nudge Teams” to change the thinking of most Americans?

If they cannot fine, threaten and intimidate you into thinking their way - they will torture and kill you to obtain compliance with their demonic system.

We are past the point of resisting this tyranny by any civil means, and our enemy intends that to be the case.


69 posted on 08/03/2013 2:57:50 PM PDT by INVAR ("Fart for liberty, fart for freedom and fart proudly!" - Benjamin Franklin)
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To: Jim Robinson
These may seem to be reasonable positions. But they are incompatible.

I brief and fleeting moment of clarity from the NYT and Robert H Frank.

Frank is just another high minded prog who is a vested member of the ethereal country club of We-Know-Better. He is another example that defies the notion that a conservative is a liberal who has been just mugged. Communism failed, but let's try it again, but this time the Frank idiot will pontificate new idiocy.

70 posted on 08/03/2013 2:59:19 PM PDT by VRW Conspirator (The Lefties can drink Kool-Aid; I will drink Tea.)
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To: RetiredArmy
AND, EVERY STINKING MEMBER OF CONGRESS AND THE FED GOV WHO IS EXEMPT HAS TO TAKE IT AND NOT HAVE THEIR SPECIAL PROGRAMS!!!

So congress critters will get insurance from the exchanges but have to pay out of pocket only 25% of the premium? While everyone else will pay the full 100% out of pocket with maybe a tax credit next year. Maybe that 75% is taxable income? It sure would be for a private citizen.

71 posted on 08/03/2013 3:00:49 PM PDT by Mike Darancette (Fight the culture of nothing.)
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda

I was on a mock jury organized by a manufacturer of a drug, who was being sued by the family of a man who caught the disease (AIDS), and died while taking this drug, which has been quite effective (and profitable) keeping the patients alive. The jury (or 2 or 3, simultaneously, as I recall) was conducted by a marketing firm that did this kind of studies, and included a cross section of citizens from the county where the trial would take place, i.e. those that were expected to be called for jury duty. Microphones in the ceiling, cameras and people on the other side of a two may mirror, actors or attorneys playing both sides of the dispute, and we the jurors. The manufacturer was of course concerned as the medication was a cash cow worldwide, while AIDS patients were still dying, as AIDS patients tend to do.

The victim, (a Mexican immigrant) who was presumably hetero, and whose practices that led to the infection were not discussed, was quite obviously a patient in denial, uneducated, who would not take the drug as prescribed,
did not follow doctor’s orders, etc. Left a grieving widow and children. Nevertheless the family sued, and many on my jury sympathized (grieving widow and children, whose pictures the jury was shown by the actors playing the plaintiff’s attorneys.) After all it was the dreaded greedy Big Pharma. What happened at the actual trial I don’t know, I’d have to check sometime.


72 posted on 08/03/2013 3:01:07 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: Billthedrill
So everyone understands what time it is:

It's socialism when you can opt out, Communism when it's mandatory.

Well stated Bill.

73 posted on 08/03/2013 3:01:57 PM PDT by INVAR ("Fart for liberty, fart for freedom and fart proudly!" - Benjamin Franklin)
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To: Jim Robinson
I have and am considering not filing tax returns.

I'm 61 years old, no spouse, no dependents, no pets, no houseplants, minimal assets.

They can come and get me. 3 hots and a cot would be an improvement in my lifestyle.

74 posted on 08/03/2013 3:02:51 PM PDT by elkfersupper
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda
Your post is very accurate. I read somewhere that 40 percent of cases posed by ambulance chasers are fraudulent to the core. Another 40 percent are actually decent, respectable cases worth making and suing over.

The remaining 20 percent are cases that aren't necessarily worth pursuing in court, but have been trumped up and altered so as to get them into court. So basically, it's about 60 percent or so fraud/unnecessary, and 40 percent legitimacy.

75 posted on 08/03/2013 3:05:01 PM PDT by Prole
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To: Jim Robinson

Which is why everyone should be out.


76 posted on 08/03/2013 3:11:59 PM PDT by TBP (Obama lies, Granny dies.)
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To: elkfersupper

Check this out about taxes. It will blow your mind.

http://www.losthorizons.com/


77 posted on 08/03/2013 3:17:49 PM PDT by bkaycee (John 3:16)
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To: Jim Robinson

I will have to go on Obamacare because of having to take disability from a genetic disease that will eventually take my life. It scares the *%#| out of me to turn my DNA and 30 years of medical records over to the government. Do I see a death panel in my future? Absolutely.


78 posted on 08/03/2013 3:22:15 PM PDT by Bapper64
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To: Jim Robinson
Communists said the same thing.
It would not work unless the whole world adopted it.
This was the excuse they needed for war and the enslavement of millions.

Now Obamacare has the same requirement. Who would have thunk it?


79 posted on 08/03/2013 3:25:13 PM PDT by Bon mots
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To: SpaceBar

Obamacare and all other progressive, social-engineering schemes would not be possible without the existance of the Federal Reserve.


80 posted on 08/03/2013 3:30:00 PM PDT by PGR88
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To: onyx

“ text massages,”

Can I get one those. :)


81 posted on 08/03/2013 3:35:39 PM PDT by Clyde5445
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To: Jim Robinson

Ditto, Jim. Well said.


82 posted on 08/03/2013 3:45:06 PM PDT by Talisker (One who commands, must obey.)
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To: Jim Robinson

The headline is an F’ing lie!


83 posted on 08/03/2013 3:51:02 PM PDT by stockpirate (American taxpayer's are: The New World Order slaves for the collective.)
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To: humblegunner

same here. This is my line in the sand. done


84 posted on 08/03/2013 3:58:54 PM PDT by sopwith (LIVE FREE OR DIE)
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To: Jim Robinson

Hear, Hear!!


85 posted on 08/03/2013 5:22:05 PM PDT by penelopesire (TIME FOR OBAMA TO ANSWER FOR BENGHAZI UNDER OATH!!)
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To: elkfersupper

Filing tax returns is so 1970s....


86 posted on 08/03/2013 5:43:48 PM PDT by SisterK (RIP America)
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To: kcvl

Aaaahhh, the kewl turtleneck professor. Same shirt, with and without the facial hair,


87 posted on 08/03/2013 5:45:36 PM PDT by I_be_tc
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To: bkaycee; elkfersupper

or view video by Aaron Russo
Freedom to Facism


88 posted on 08/03/2013 5:47:43 PM PDT by SisterK (RIP America)
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To: Sooth2222

There is already a shortage of physicians in the US...

Maybe in the future, we will have to import
“bare foot” doctors from Cuba...


89 posted on 08/03/2013 5:49:54 PM PDT by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: Jim Robinson

Indeed. Buuuump!


90 posted on 08/03/2013 7:10:10 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Jim Robinson

I don’t think anyone should get too worked up about buying Obamacare insurance. It’s designed so you don’t need to buy insurance until you get really sick anyway, at which point it will be a bargain, no matter what the costs. Sort of like buying casualty insurance only after your house catches on fire.

And during the first few years of Obamacare, the “fines” are trivial, and even later you can avoid actually paying the fine if you always under withhold your tax payments because there is no means to collect the fine except from any excess withholdings.

And I think this is pretty much how it’s going to play out. It’s how socialism works: take as much as you can from the system and give as little back as possible. That’s what “to each according to their needs and from each according to their ability” really boils down to, namely everyone has infinite needs and very few have much ability.


91 posted on 08/03/2013 8:10:16 PM PDT by catnipman (Cat Nipman: Vote Republican in 2012 and only be called racist one more time!)
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To: Jim Robinson

The only benefactors of this sort of scheme ARE the Leftists, the Communists. It’s all about control, which IS power, and power is wealth for those in power.


92 posted on 08/03/2013 8:16:37 PM PDT by rockinqsranch (Dems, Libs, Socialists, call 'em what you will. They ALL have fairies livin' in their trees.)
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To: Jim Robinson
Maybe obamacare was never intended to work.
93 posted on 08/03/2013 8:29:40 PM PDT by Bon of Babble (Due to the current economic situation, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off!!)
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To: Bon of Babble

That what I think


94 posted on 08/03/2013 8:30:52 PM PDT by GeronL
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To: Jim Robinson

” - - - ObamaCare is unconstitutional and unAmerican. Obviously and for good reason, the constitution does not authorize the federal government to be in the health care business or the insurance business. - - - “

Very well said, Jim.


95 posted on 08/03/2013 8:34:42 PM PDT by Graewoulf (Traitor John Roberts' Commune-Style Obama'care' violates U.S. Constitution AND Anti-Trust Law.)
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To: Jim Robinson

“I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.”

— James Madison, father of the United States Constitution


96 posted on 08/03/2013 8:39:19 PM PDT by EternalVigilance
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To: matt04
I have a feeling the Union bosses got the exemptions, not the people they “represent.”

The exemptions are a different issue altogether. The 2700+ exemptions granted by HHS were to employers exempting them from the employer mandate, which is now delayed by one year. All of the employees of the exempted businesses are still subject to the individual mandate. While problematic and a crock of crap, the exemptions have no bearing on individual participation in the exchanges.

97 posted on 08/03/2013 8:47:53 PM PDT by RobertClark (My shrink just killed himself - he blamed me in his note!)
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To: Jim Robinson

If you’re enrolled in TRICARE or the Veterans health care program, you’re considered covered under the health care law. You don’t need to make any changes.
https://www.healthcare.gov/if-im-a-military-veteran-what-do-i-need-to-know-about-the-marketplace/

Why don’t I believe them?


98 posted on 08/03/2013 10:24:12 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (I aim to raise a million plus for Gov. Palin. What'll you do?.)
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To: elpadre

“Obama was truthful on this. He said in very beginning that he favored a univeral, single payer system. He also said this Obamacare was only the first step to reach his goal.”


It’s not the truth. It’s wordplay. A “single payer system” for THIS country, has dark undertones. He has said alot of things that HORDES of sheeple believed. And they believed it enough to vote for him. Twice....which I believe was a vote totally controlled by misplaced anger.


99 posted on 08/04/2013 12:57:34 AM PDT by ourworldawry
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To: ourworldawry

I tend to agree about the misplaced anger. The voters who put Barack over the top the second time were primed with talk about how Mitt would have taken free pie away from them. How Mitt would make it more possible for them to get their own pie (and better pie) was not discussed.


100 posted on 08/04/2013 1:00:22 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Whatever promise that God has made, in Jesus it is yes. See my page.)
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