Skip to comments.Genetic Roots of Ashkenazi Jews
Posted on 10/08/2013 11:57:29 AM PDT by ek_hornbeck
The majority of Ashkenazi Jews are descended from prehistoric European women, according to study published today (October 8) in Nature Communications. While the Jewish religion began in the Near East, and the Ashkenazi Jews were believed to have origins in the early indigenous tribes of this region, new evidence from mitochondrial DNA, which is passed on exclusively from mother to child, suggests that female ancestors of most modern Ashkenazi Jews converted to Judaism in the north Mediterranean around 2,000 years ago and later in west and central Europe.
(Excerpt) Read more at the-scientist.com ...
In Spain, many Jews and Muslims converted to Christianity in order to continue residing there following King Ferdinand's edict expelling non-Christians.
The reason Andalusians are swarthy and Arab-looking is that many of them are descended from "Moors" (Muslim Arabs) who converted to Christianity.
It's also the case that a disproportionate number of Spaniards who settled the New World were Jewish converts to Christianity, so to this day you find pockets of extensive Jewish ancestry among Hispanics in parts of Mexico and in the mountain communities of New Mexico.
I think that the Middle Eastern features that you see in many Italians may go back even further: to the time that Phoenicians and Carthaginians colonized the area.
I’ll give you a bump because back in earlier times at FR, subjects like this were discussed.
Maybe if you had taken the route of your ancestors and married a (prehistoric) European women... Then she would agree...
Yes, there are variations of that. Generally, it’s 3 times.
There was a very funny Simpsons episode where Homer converted. They followed Halakha pretty precisely, down to the Rabbi turning Homer away 3 times.
“So today’s Zionist Jews are mostly Ashkenazi Jews?”
Aboout 1/2, I think. The remainder are Mizrahim (a semi-subset of Sephardic who were in arab/muslim countries).
Yes. The implication given was that female converts married middle eastern background Jews. No evidence for that, which is what I was trying to point out.
What alternative explanation is there for characteristically European mtDNA in Jews other than conversion of non-Jewish European women to Judaism?
Todays Zionists are from the entire range of Jewish groups.
“Zionist” simply means that you want to live in your historic, indigenous homeland- Israel. I am a Zionist and I am totally Sefardic- I am an Orthodox Jew who’s family is Egyptian, Turkish and Spanish. 3/4 of Israel’s population is Sefardic.
Most folks do not realize that over 900,000 Jews were forced to flee- thrown out with just the clothes on their back - from the Arab nations when Israel declared its rebirth in 1948. They were taken back in by the State of Israel. They make up the majority of the Israeli population.
They can dispute all they want, but they cannot argue with the archeology- the facts in the ground, and there is plenty of it- along with the ancient writings of other nations, and the artifacts, such as the Arch of Titus, and the spoils of the siege, acknowledged by, and still kept in the Vatican.
There were indeed borders back then- very clearly so. And, we know the ancient names. As an example, in the Torah you will find the specific areas, their size and locations of each tribe’s portion of land. One thing that makes the Torah so fascinating is that it contains what are probably the world’s first recorded real estate deeds and land titles.
But for an interesting glance at the old maps, here is a link to an English portion of a Hebrew site that features a good look into the ancient world, the nations, their ancient names, and boundaries of that entire region: http://hashem1.net/?p=361#Magogs_Land_Borders.
The Jewish Diaspora was wide reaching, but it was actually rather well documented. But, there no French kings among them. Some nobility of Europe may have had one of us in the woodpile, but for the most part, that is just nonsense from the Revisionists. The European royalty was too busy persecuting Jews to marry into them. And the Revisionists just want to claim Israel as their own, so they re-write history, can’t read Hebrew, and ignore the facts - like archeology.
Rabbi Ken Spiro produced a 33 part series on Jewish history from Abraham to the present. You may want to look into it:
“What alternative explanation is there for characteristically European mtDNA in Jews other than conversion of non-Jewish European women to Judaism?”
Proof positive that Jewish men are great lovers, and that most of us have huge....
...senses of humor.
No doubt, I was responding to your comment about some Sicilians looking like Vikings.
Regardless of whether the European women actually converted or not, this study does explain why you see a whole spectrum of physical features, from very European-looking to very Arab-looking, among Ashkenazi Jews. If there weren’t some European admixture there, Kirk Douglas and James Caan would probably look more like Yasser Arafat.
“You certainly see it in the people: Ive known some people from Sicily and Naples who look like Vikings and others who look like Arabs.”
Bari was the capital, for Norman controlled southern Italy. Normans were French speaking Vikings.
My MIL is from Bari, is 5’8” at age 86 after normal shrinkage. Her sister had light brown hair.
My wife’s cousin in Bari, married a pretty local blonde girl.
My motto: Italian women, German cars, Mexican food, Irish music.
The population of the Hellenistic eastern Med including Hellene-occupied Israel and Egypt (Alexandria had a very large Jewish minority), Jews lived in every ancient city in the Mediterranean and not just the ports), including Rome, so Roman conquest brought a lot of Jews under Roman dominion. The Jewish population estimate most will accept is 10 percent, but at its peak it may have been as high as 15 percent, IOW, wow.
The catamite-lovin’ homo Emperor Hadrian despised the Jews for things like what he considered body defacement (circumcision, in this case), but Roman persecution of the Jews probably hit its peak under Diocletian, with the Flavian dynasty right behind. As the Jews kept their Sabbath holy (no one else actually *had* a Sabbath), they were ineligible for service in the Roman army, though they sold the many essentials to keep it running. They had only one God, and the Romans had many (and kept making more by Senate decree), and it wasn’t an idol but an invisible presence; that freaked out the Romans and kinda pissed them off.
Whoops, and thanks Fractal Trader.
Yet she still calls you Beloved...
You should meet Tonto Kowalski...
The Arabs arrived first; after some considerable period of time, mercenaries were hired by the Byzantines to drive them out. After that, some Normans arrived and carved out a short-lived kingdom in Sicily and if memory serves a small chunk of the Italian boot. Wanting the best for his kids, King Roger (”fweee Woger!”) hired Arab tutors and the whole thing went all kumbaya after that.
The (purported?) tomb of Hrolf the Ganger has a very-postmortem inscription referencing the various dynasties which had sprung from him, and the Sicily kingdom was one of them.
The story is basically hokum, was popularized by the polemical “The Thirteenth Tribe”.
Regarding gefilite fish, I can’t stand it but I will eat my mothers.
She will even make a little one for my kitteh, who yums it up. Kitty is also fond of her brisket, and her kasha with bowties.
P.S. love your name too!
I do not like gefiilte fish it but I do love my mother’s.
This past year she was ill, so she served the stuff in a bottle. It was horrible. My sister then went into Manhattan and brought some back from a Jewish deli, it was good, but not as good as my mothers.
I think mom’s special ingredient is love. I’m going to have to try the recipe a few numbers back,
Findings by American anthropologist C. Loring Brace, University of Michigan, will surely be controversial in race conscious Japan. The eye of the predicted storm will be the Ainu, a "racially different" group of some 18,000 people now living on the northern island of Hokkaido. Pure-blooded Ainu are easy to spot: they have lighter skin, more body hair, and higher-bridged noses than most Japanese. Most Japanese tend to look down on the Ainu.
Brace has studied the skeletons of about 1,100 Japanese, Ainu, and other Asian ethnic groups and has concluded that the revered samurai of Japan are actually descendants of the Ainu, not of the Yayoi from whom most modern Japanese are descended. In fact, Brace threw more fuel on the fire with:
"Dr. Brace said this interpretation also explains why the facial features of the Japanese ruling class are so often unlike those of typical modern Japanese. The Ainu-related samurai achieved such power and prestige in medieval Japan that they intermarried with royality and nobility, passing on Jomon-Ainu blood in the upper classes, while other Japanese were primarily descended from the Yoyoi." The reactions of Japanese scientists have been muted so. One Japanese anthropologist did say to Brace," I hope you are wrong."
The Ainu and their origin have always been rather mysterious, with some people claiming that the Ainu are really Caucasian or proto-Caucasian - in other words, "white." At present, Brace's study denies this interpretation.
Koestler's claim that all or most Khazars became Jews is false. In fact it is refuted in the primary sources. But some Khazars did convert and according to Khagan Joseph, they intermarried refugees from the Caliphate and Byzantine Empires.
The last research showed the average IQ of Jews is 115. Their American voting record suggests an IQ of 80.
>>I can recall being intrigued by how many of the worlds most brilliant physicists were Hungarian Jews from Budapest.
>>It just about has to be genetics.
And why can’t the ability to acquire knowledge be as much a matter of culture and upbringing as using ones’ hands while speaking, saying “knock wood” for good luck, making a stranger feel welcome, etc.? The Florentine Renaissance, that little romp in a meadow that gave us 3-D rendering for blueprints, machine tool industry, modern astronomy and eventually the Industrial Revolution, happened in Northern Italy because of the creation of surplus value by the merchant class and the translation of lost Greek texts saved by Arab scholars, not by some indwelling knack for numbers. The Florentine Renaissance spawned the Elizabethan Renaissance, the French Enlightenment, the Prussian Education Reforms and, yes, the Philadelphian Renaissance centered around the printing press of Benjamin Franklin and others resulting in our American Revolution. If you are an oppressed minority and wish to survive, you begin to live by your wits and get smart as a culture. Conservatives will soon learn this.
Nobody disputes any of this. What is in dispute was A. whether conversion to Judaism spread beyond the royals and nobles of Khazaria to the general population and B. regardless of A, what fraction of modern day Jews are actually descended from Khazars.
There isn't much evidence of a Central Asian "genetic signature" among Jews. The male-inherited Y-chromosomes point of Middle Eastern origins (similar to Druze, Lebanese Arabs), the female-inherited mtDNA points to European origins (related to Italians). If most modern Jews were Khazars, you'd expect their haplotypes to cluster with Georgians, Armenians, etc, which they generally don't.
You're right that it can't all be genetics. The Arabs are a Semitic people related to Jews (at least to Sephardic Jews and to the paternal line of Ashkenazim), and there's a world of difference between Arab and Jewish achievement today. Even among Arabs, there's a world of difference in how much Christian Arabs (the Lebanese diaspora) achieve economically and their Muslim "countrymen", especially in immigrant communities. That difference - with the Christians successful merchants and the Muslims mostly poor in Lebanon, is almost certainly cultural.
However, isn't it reasonable to argue that the same pressures (ostracism, oppression) that selected for placing a cultural premium on achievement and education also created a biological pressure for higher intelligence and achievement through natural selection? Not that oppression and minority status always does this - there are plenty of "minority" groups in America and in Europe who aren't exactly known for being high-end achievers.
> Koestler’s claim that all or most Khazars became Jews is false.
That’s correct, and that’s what I’m saying — the idea that European Jewry has *no* Middle Eastern roots is Koestler’s real underlying bias.
Conversion to Judaism has been rare, but obviously has happened.
That “khazaria” site is an ethnocentric agitprop site — “Over a thousand years ago, the far east of Europe was ruled by Jewish kings who presided over numerous tribes, including their own tribe: the Turkic Khazars.”
As the saying goes, they earn like Presbyterians, but vote like Puerto Ricans.
Some guy named Richard McCulloch stated of the Jews that:
“All trace their pre-Diaspora (the dispersion of Jews outside of Israel) origins to the ancient Hebrews, who originally belonged to the Orientalid or Arabid subrace of the Mediterranid race. It is likely that by the beginning of the Diaspora they were already hybridized with Armenid elements. Racially, the Diaspora is largely a history of further hybridization with the populations of the different regions in which the various Jewish groups resided. The modern Ashkenazic branch associated with eastern Europe, by far the most numerous, is a primarily Armenid blend including lesser elements of Orientalid, Turanid, Ladogan, Alpine, Dinaric and Nordish origin. (Genetic studies of the Ashkenazic Jews have found that their ancestry is 60-70% Middle Eastern [i.e., Armenid and Orientalid] and 30-40% European, with the European elements derived primarily from the maternal lines.) The Sephardic branch is primarily an Orientalid-Armenid blend hybridized with West Mediterraneans. The Oriental branch remains basically true to the pre-Diaspora type.”
I think that the ancestors of the Jews were basically a Semitic-Caucasic (from the Caucasus) blend, with the Caucasic coming from the Hurrians, then Ashkenazi’s ancestors may have picked up more Caucasic along the trip to Europe.
Modern Jews are partly descended from the Hebrews, they were just mixed.
Weren’t the Palestinians also descended from other Semitic peoples, neither Arab nor Hebrew, such as the Moabites?
I wish I had been paying attention last year to point this out from day 1.
However, isn’t it reasonable to argue that the same pressures (ostracism, oppression) that selected for placing a cultural premium on achievement and education also created a biological pressure for higher intelligence and achievement through natural selection? Not that oppression and minority status always does this - there are plenty of “minority” groups in America and in Europe who aren’t exactly known for being high-end achievers.
Yes, absolutely social pressures can manifest in natural selection and create greater ability at the genetic level. But the common tendency is to characterize any overtly observable differences between people as racial. It’s easier, a product of lazy minds who simply have to justify a predisposition of theirs by demonizing the opposition. This is what cultures of oppression do best, and its ugliest manifestation is not at street level, but at the boardroom level where people should know better but sabotage their thinking because they have to rationalize anti-social and criminal behavior. Why did millions migrate to the US and Europe if not to encounter a culture that was free from the corruption and criminality they found at home. In the past they assimilated and made our country great. But now they are kept from assimilation by leftist think tank idealogues who’s only job is to destroy America any way they can and keeping separatist racial or religious or national polarities alive and well as a destabilizing pressure point is at the top of their lists.
Sounds good! I’ve been very happy now that Siracha is consistently kosher certified.
Before, I could only find the kosher Siracha in Israel.
“Prince Charles may be a descendant of Muhammad. “
John Kerry IS a descendant of Muhammad.
Seriously. It was on ancestry.com
Of course, the mirror image of the intellectual laziness that says "it's all genetic" is the leftist intellectual laziness turned dogma of "it's all environment" - i.e. if we only engineered the right social conditions, all differences among both groups and individuals would disappear.
Actually the Normans conquered a good portion of southern Italy first, concluding with the conquest of Bari in 1071—the last Byzantine possession in the West. The next year the Norman conquest of Sicily began with the capture of Palermo.
Your comment made me go back and check the bottle.
The printed hechsher is from a lesser known kashrus agency in Philadelphia called KTC, run by a Rabbi Alan Ira Silver, M.D.
they are listed (as are all) here
Sriracha also carries a hechsher from California; there’s some discussion of it here:
And here’s the latest I could find;
The following kashrus information is from the Atlanta Kashruth Commission and the Rabbinical Council of California on May 7, 2013.
The following Huy Fong products are usable without a kosher symbol:
Sriracha Hot Chili Sauce
Chili Garlic Sauce
They are certified as kosher by the Rabbinical Council of California.
At the last link above some Rabbi does not “recommend” bottles with the old hechsher...
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