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Genetic Roots of Ashkenazi Jews
The Scientist ^ | 10/8/13 | Kate Yandell

Posted on 10/08/2013 11:57:29 AM PDT by ek_hornbeck

The majority of Ashkenazi Jews are descended from prehistoric European women, according to study published today (October 8) in Nature Communications. While the Jewish religion began in the Near East, and the Ashkenazi Jews were believed to have origins in the early indigenous tribes of this region, new evidence from mitochondrial DNA, which is passed on exclusively from mother to child, suggests that female ancestors of most modern Ashkenazi Jews converted to Judaism in the north Mediterranean around 2,000 years ago and later in west and central Europe.

(Excerpt) Read more at the-scientist.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: genetics; godsgravesglyphs; helixmakemineadouble; history; jews
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To: Verginius Rufus
One of the 6th-century Merovingian kings forced a number of Jews in his kingdom to convert to Christianity. Presumably those people have many living descendants who are unaware of what happened to their 6th-century ancestors. There are undoubtedly a lot of Europeans who an unaware of being descended from someone who was Jewish but converted either under compulsion or voluntarily--probably it would be impossible for a European to prove he has no Jewish ancestry whatever (expect possibly Icelanders).

In Spain, many Jews and Muslims converted to Christianity in order to continue residing there following King Ferdinand's edict expelling non-Christians.

The reason Andalusians are swarthy and Arab-looking is that many of them are descended from "Moors" (Muslim Arabs) who converted to Christianity.

It's also the case that a disproportionate number of Spaniards who settled the New World were Jewish converts to Christianity, so to this day you find pockets of extensive Jewish ancestry among Hispanics in parts of Mexico and in the mountain communities of New Mexico.

101 posted on 10/09/2013 8:29:12 AM PDT by ek_hornbeck
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To: SJackson
The Vikings, the group often referred to as Normans, established a presence in Sicily and southern Italy in the 11th century. Being social people, I presume they socialized with the local population. As did Arabs who arrived later.

I think that the Middle Eastern features that you see in many Italians may go back even further: to the time that Phoenicians and Carthaginians colonized the area.

102 posted on 10/09/2013 8:38:15 AM PDT by ek_hornbeck
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To: Verginius Rufus

I’ll give you a bump because back in earlier times at FR, subjects like this were discussed.


103 posted on 10/09/2013 8:50:59 AM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: Yehuda
(though my wife disagrees)...

Maybe if you had taken the route of your ancestors and married a (prehistoric) European women... Then she would agree...

104 posted on 10/09/2013 9:24:52 AM PDT by GOPJ (Brieitbart sent me... Freeper newfreep)
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To: Bubba Ho-Tep

Yes, there are variations of that. Generally, it’s 3 times.

There was a very funny Simpsons episode where Homer converted. They followed Halakha pretty precisely, down to the Rabbi turning Homer away 3 times.


105 posted on 10/09/2013 9:41:40 AM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: Ben Ficklin

“So today’s Zionist Jews are mostly Ashkenazi Jews?”

Aboout 1/2, I think. The remainder are Mizrahim (a semi-subset of Sephardic who were in arab/muslim countries).


106 posted on 10/09/2013 9:45:29 AM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: not2be4gotten.com
The true genetic descendants of the Jews are the Palestinians.
Palestinians are largely descended from the Arabs who invaded i the 7th century. They are also descended from the Byzantin/Roman colonists. And, yes, they are also descended from Jews and Samaritans. Of course, this would be the 19th centruty Levantine Arabs. Since then there has been an influx of Syrian and Egyptian Arabs as well as other groups like Circassians and other European Muslims setteled there by the Ottomans.
107 posted on 10/09/2013 10:57:35 AM PDT by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: Eleutheria5
At one point, the Khazar king and many, if not most, of his followers converted to Judaism.
In 740, Bulan, the Khagan Bek (cheif noble, prime minister to the Asena Clan Khagan/Emperor) of the Khazars converted. Many nobles (ak-Khazars) did as well. However, most historical accounts show that most Khazars did not. While some Jews are fortunate enough to have Khazar ancestry, genetic studies show it is a small number who have this.
108 posted on 10/09/2013 11:03:48 AM PDT by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: Ben Ficklin
So today's Zionist Jews are mostly Ashkenazi Jews?
About 70% of Jews are Ashkenazi. But I don't get the "Zionist" part. In Israel, most non-Ashkenazi Jews vote for right-wing Zionist or religious parties. And I have never come accross a non-Ashkenazi Jew in America who is not a Zionist.
109 posted on 10/09/2013 11:07:41 AM PDT by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: ek_hornbeck

Yes. The implication given was that female converts married middle eastern background Jews. No evidence for that, which is what I was trying to point out.


110 posted on 10/09/2013 11:17:09 AM PDT by Jabba the Nutt (You can have a free country or government schools. Choose one.)
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To: Jabba the Nutt

What alternative explanation is there for characteristically European mtDNA in Jews other than conversion of non-Jewish European women to Judaism?


111 posted on 10/09/2013 12:08:44 PM PDT by ek_hornbeck
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To: Ben Ficklin

Todays Zionists are from the entire range of Jewish groups.

“Zionist” simply means that you want to live in your historic, indigenous homeland- Israel. I am a Zionist and I am totally Sefardic- I am an Orthodox Jew who’s family is Egyptian, Turkish and Spanish. 3/4 of Israel’s population is Sefardic.

Most folks do not realize that over 900,000 Jews were forced to flee- thrown out with just the clothes on their back - from the Arab nations when Israel declared its rebirth in 1948. They were taken back in by the State of Israel. They make up the majority of the Israeli population.

They can dispute all they want, but they cannot argue with the archeology- the facts in the ground, and there is plenty of it- along with the ancient writings of other nations, and the artifacts, such as the Arch of Titus, and the spoils of the siege, acknowledged by, and still kept in the Vatican.

There were indeed borders back then- very clearly so. And, we know the ancient names. As an example, in the Torah you will find the specific areas, their size and locations of each tribe’s portion of land. One thing that makes the Torah so fascinating is that it contains what are probably the world’s first recorded real estate deeds and land titles.

But for an interesting glance at the old maps, here is a link to an English portion of a Hebrew site that features a good look into the ancient world, the nations, their ancient names, and boundaries of that entire region: http://hashem1.net/?p=361#Magogs_Land_Borders.

The Jewish Diaspora was wide reaching, but it was actually rather well documented. But, there no French kings among them. Some nobility of Europe may have had one of us in the woodpile, but for the most part, that is just nonsense from the Revisionists. The European royalty was too busy persecuting Jews to marry into them. And the Revisionists just want to claim Israel as their own, so they re-write history, can’t read Hebrew, and ignore the facts - like archeology.

Rabbi Ken Spiro produced a 33 part series on Jewish history from Abraham to the present. You may want to look into it:
http://www.learnoutloud.com/Free-Audio-Video/History/World-History/Crash-Course-on-Jewish-History/18149


112 posted on 10/09/2013 1:03:52 PM PDT by Never A Dull Moment
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To: ek_hornbeck

“What alternative explanation is there for characteristically European mtDNA in Jews other than conversion of non-Jewish European women to Judaism?”

Proof positive that Jewish men are great lovers, and that most of us have huge....

...senses of humor.


113 posted on 10/09/2013 1:11:56 PM PDT by Yehuda (Pres Obortion, Sen.McAnus, & Hillary Rotten Clinton all kiss the *ss of the muslim brotherhood.)
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To: ek_hornbeck

No doubt, I was responding to your comment about some Sicilians looking like Vikings.


114 posted on 10/09/2013 5:10:59 PM PDT by SJackson (As a black man, you know, Barack could get shot going to the gas station, Michelle on Chicago)
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To: Yehuda

Regardless of whether the European women actually converted or not, this study does explain why you see a whole spectrum of physical features, from very European-looking to very Arab-looking, among Ashkenazi Jews. If there weren’t some European admixture there, Kirk Douglas and James Caan would probably look more like Yasser Arafat.


115 posted on 10/11/2013 9:19:07 AM PDT by ek_hornbeck
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To: ek_hornbeck

“You certainly see it in the people: I’ve known some people from Sicily and Naples who look like Vikings and others who look like Arabs.”

Bari was the capital, for Norman controlled southern Italy. Normans were French speaking Vikings.

My MIL is from Bari, is 5’8” at age 86 after normal shrinkage. Her sister had light brown hair.

My wife’s cousin in Bari, married a pretty local blonde girl.

My motto: Italian women, German cars, Mexican food, Irish music.


116 posted on 10/11/2013 9:32:06 AM PDT by truth_seeker
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To: colorado tanker; TEXOKIE; BenLurkin; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; decimon; 1010RD; ...

Thanks colorado tanker!

117 posted on 10/12/2013 10:40:53 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
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To: ek_hornbeck

The population of the Hellenistic eastern Med including Hellene-occupied Israel and Egypt (Alexandria had a very large Jewish minority), Jews lived in every ancient city in the Mediterranean and not just the ports), including Rome, so Roman conquest brought a lot of Jews under Roman dominion. The Jewish population estimate most will accept is 10 percent, but at its peak it may have been as high as 15 percent, IOW, wow.

The catamite-lovin’ homo Emperor Hadrian despised the Jews for things like what he considered body defacement (circumcision, in this case), but Roman persecution of the Jews probably hit its peak under Diocletian, with the Flavian dynasty right behind. As the Jews kept their Sabbath holy (no one else actually *had* a Sabbath), they were ineligible for service in the Roman army, though they sold the many essentials to keep it running. They had only one God, and the Romans had many (and kept making more by Senate decree), and it wasn’t an idol but an invisible presence; that freaked out the Romans and kinda pissed them off.


118 posted on 10/12/2013 10:50:16 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
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To: Fractal Trader

Whoops, and thanks Fractal Trader.

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/news/ashkenazi-jewisah-ancestry-confirmed-european-by-mtdna-tests/

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/3077652/posts?page=24#24


119 posted on 10/12/2013 10:52:53 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
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To: Yehuda

Yet she still calls you Beloved...


120 posted on 10/12/2013 11:00:28 AM PDT by null and void (I'm betting on an Obama Trifecta: A Nobel Peace Prize, an Impeachment, AND a War Crimes Trial...)
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To: wizr; TontoKowalski

You should meet Tonto Kowalski...


121 posted on 10/12/2013 11:03:26 AM PDT by null and void (I'm betting on an Obama Trifecta: A Nobel Peace Prize, an Impeachment, AND a War Crimes Trial...)
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To: SJackson; ek_hornbeck; truth_seeker

The Arabs arrived first; after some considerable period of time, mercenaries were hired by the Byzantines to drive them out. After that, some Normans arrived and carved out a short-lived kingdom in Sicily and if memory serves a small chunk of the Italian boot. Wanting the best for his kids, King Roger (”fweee Woger!”) hired Arab tutors and the whole thing went all kumbaya after that.

The (purported?) tomb of Hrolf the Ganger has a very-postmortem inscription referencing the various dynasties which had sprung from him, and the Sicily kingdom was one of them.


122 posted on 10/12/2013 11:05:38 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
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To: hlmencken3; SJackson

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/3076370/posts?page=118#118


123 posted on 10/12/2013 11:06:20 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
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To: rmlew; SJackson; Eleutheria5

The story is basically hokum, was popularized by the polemical “The Thirteenth Tribe”.


124 posted on 10/12/2013 11:07:59 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
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To: Jewbacca

Regarding gefilite fish, I can’t stand it but I will eat my mothers.

She will even make a little one for my kitteh, who yums it up. Kitty is also fond of her brisket, and her kasha with bowties.

P.S. love your name too!


125 posted on 10/12/2013 11:26:58 AM PDT by Gefn (More Cowbell)
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To: PA Engineer; Slings and Arrows

I do not like gefiilte fish it but I do love my mother’s.

This past year she was ill, so she served the stuff in a bottle. It was horrible. My sister then went into Manhattan and brought some back from a Jewish deli, it was good, but not as good as my mothers.

I think mom’s special ingredient is love. I’m going to have to try the recipe a few numbers back,


126 posted on 10/12/2013 11:34:53 AM PDT by Gefn (More Cowbell)
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Black Jews in Africa and the Americas (The Nathan I. Huggins Lectures) by Tudor Parfitt
Black Jews in Africa
and the Americas
The Nathan I. Huggins Lectures

by Tudor Parfitt


Kindle version


127 posted on 10/12/2013 7:42:18 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
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To: SunkenCiv

Interesting. Thanks!


128 posted on 10/12/2013 8:35:32 PM PDT by TEXOKIE (We must surrender only to our Holy God and never to the evil that has befallen us.)
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To: ek_hornbeck
Ancient Etruscans were immigrants from Anatolia, or what is now Turkey
129 posted on 10/12/2013 8:56:17 PM PDT by blam
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To: ek_hornbeck
Nearly Half Of Ashkenazi Jews Descended From Four 'Founding Mothers'
130 posted on 10/12/2013 8:58:55 PM PDT by blam
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To: DManA
"I have read there is a tribe in N. Japan that look almost Caucasian."

THE SAMURAI AND THE AINU

Findings by American anthropologist C. Loring Brace, University of Michigan, will surely be controversial in race conscious Japan. The eye of the predicted storm will be the Ainu, a "racially different" group of some 18,000 people now living on the northern island of Hokkaido. Pure-blooded Ainu are easy to spot: they have lighter skin, more body hair, and higher-bridged noses than most Japanese. Most Japanese tend to look down on the Ainu.

Brace has studied the skeletons of about 1,100 Japanese, Ainu, and other Asian ethnic groups and has concluded that the revered samurai of Japan are actually descendants of the Ainu, not of the Yayoi from whom most modern Japanese are descended. In fact, Brace threw more fuel on the fire with:

"Dr. Brace said this interpretation also explains why the facial features of the Japanese ruling class are so often unlike those of typical modern Japanese. The Ainu-related samurai achieved such power and prestige in medieval Japan that they intermarried with royality and nobility, passing on Jomon-Ainu blood in the upper classes, while other Japanese were primarily descended from the Yoyoi." The reactions of Japanese scientists have been muted so. One Japanese anthropologist did say to Brace," I hope you are wrong."

The Ainu and their origin have always been rather mysterious, with some people claiming that the Ainu are really Caucasian or proto-Caucasian - in other words, "white." At present, Brace's study denies this interpretation.

131 posted on 10/12/2013 9:02:17 PM PDT by blam
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To: SunkenCiv
Are you suggesting that Rabbi Yehuda HaLevi made up the whole story? Are you suggesting that the correspendence between Khagan Joseph and Hasdai ibn Shaprut was fake? Are you saying that they Schechter Letter is a fake? Are you saying that the Kievan Chronicle randomly called the Khazars "The Jewish Kingdom?"

http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-quotes.html

Koestler's claim that all or most Khazars became Jews is false. In fact it is refuted in the primary sources. But some Khazars did convert and according to Khagan Joseph, they intermarried refugees from the Caliphate and Byzantine Empires.

132 posted on 10/12/2013 11:31:31 PM PDT by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: LibertarianLiz

The last research showed the average IQ of Jews is 115. Their American voting record suggests an IQ of 80.


133 posted on 10/13/2013 6:56:32 AM PDT by pabianice
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To: yarddog

>>I can recall being intrigued by how many of the world’s most brilliant physicists were Hungarian Jews from Budapest.

>>It just about has to be genetics.

And why can’t the ability to acquire knowledge be as much a matter of culture and upbringing as using ones’ hands while speaking, saying “knock wood” for good luck, making a stranger feel welcome, etc.? The Florentine Renaissance, that little romp in a meadow that gave us 3-D rendering for blueprints, machine tool industry, modern astronomy and eventually the Industrial Revolution, happened in Northern Italy because of the creation of surplus value by the merchant class and the translation of lost Greek texts saved by Arab scholars, not by some indwelling knack for numbers. The Florentine Renaissance spawned the Elizabethan Renaissance, the French Enlightenment, the Prussian Education Reforms and, yes, the Philadelphian Renaissance centered around the printing press of Benjamin Franklin and others resulting in our American Revolution. If you are an oppressed minority and wish to survive, you begin to live by your wits and get smart as a culture. Conservatives will soon learn this.


134 posted on 10/13/2013 9:39:54 AM PDT by Yollopoliuhqui
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To: rmlew; SunkenCiv
Are you suggesting that Rabbi Yehuda HaLevi made up the whole story? Are you suggesting that the correspendence between Khagan Joseph and Hasdai ibn Shaprut was fake? Are you saying that they Schechter Letter is a fake? Are you saying that the Kievan Chronicle randomly called the Khazars "The Jewish Kingdom?"

Nobody disputes any of this. What is in dispute was A. whether conversion to Judaism spread beyond the royals and nobles of Khazaria to the general population and B. regardless of A, what fraction of modern day Jews are actually descended from Khazars.

There isn't much evidence of a Central Asian "genetic signature" among Jews. The male-inherited Y-chromosomes point of Middle Eastern origins (similar to Druze, Lebanese Arabs), the female-inherited mtDNA points to European origins (related to Italians). If most modern Jews were Khazars, you'd expect their haplotypes to cluster with Georgians, Armenians, etc, which they generally don't.

135 posted on 10/13/2013 11:12:27 AM PDT by ek_hornbeck
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To: Yollopoliuhqui
And why can’t the ability to acquire knowledge be as much a matter of culture and upbringing as using ones’ hands while speaking, saying “knock wood” for good luck, making a stranger feel welcome, etc.? The Florentine Renaissance, that little romp in a meadow that gave us 3-D rendering for blueprints, machine tool industry, modern astronomy and eventually the Industrial Revolution, happened in Northern Italy because of the creation of surplus value by the merchant class and the translation of lost Greek texts saved by Arab scholars, not by some indwelling knack for numbers. The Florentine Renaissance spawned the Elizabethan Renaissance, the French Enlightenment, the Prussian Education Reforms and, yes, the Philadelphian Renaissance centered around the printing press of Benjamin Franklin and others resulting in our American Revolution. If you are an oppressed minority and wish to survive, you begin to live by your wits and get smart as a culture. Conservatives will soon learn this.

You're right that it can't all be genetics. The Arabs are a Semitic people related to Jews (at least to Sephardic Jews and to the paternal line of Ashkenazim), and there's a world of difference between Arab and Jewish achievement today. Even among Arabs, there's a world of difference in how much Christian Arabs (the Lebanese diaspora) achieve economically and their Muslim "countrymen", especially in immigrant communities. That difference - with the Christians successful merchants and the Muslims mostly poor in Lebanon, is almost certainly cultural.

However, isn't it reasonable to argue that the same pressures (ostracism, oppression) that selected for placing a cultural premium on achievement and education also created a biological pressure for higher intelligence and achievement through natural selection? Not that oppression and minority status always does this - there are plenty of "minority" groups in America and in Europe who aren't exactly known for being high-end achievers.

136 posted on 10/13/2013 11:17:20 AM PDT by ek_hornbeck
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To: rmlew

> Koestler’s claim that all or most Khazars became Jews is false.

That’s correct, and that’s what I’m saying — the idea that European Jewry has *no* Middle Eastern roots is Koestler’s real underlying bias.

Conversion to Judaism has been rare, but obviously has happened.

That “khazaria” site is an ethnocentric agitprop site — “Over a thousand years ago, the far east of Europe was ruled by Jewish kings who presided over numerous tribes, including their own tribe: the Turkic Khazars.”


137 posted on 10/13/2013 12:09:01 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
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To: pabianice
The last research showed the average IQ of Jews is 115. Their American voting record suggests an IQ of 80.

As the saying goes, they earn like Presbyterians, but vote like Puerto Ricans.

138 posted on 10/13/2013 12:27:09 PM PDT by ek_hornbeck
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To: Levy78

Some guy named Richard McCulloch stated of the Jews that:

“All trace their pre-Diaspora (the dispersion of Jews outside of Israel) origins to the ancient Hebrews, who originally belonged to the Orientalid or Arabid subrace of the Mediterranid race. It is likely that by the beginning of the Diaspora they were already hybridized with Armenid elements. Racially, the Diaspora is largely a history of further hybridization with the populations of the different regions in which the various Jewish groups resided. The modern Ashkenazic branch associated with eastern Europe, by far the most numerous, is a primarily Armenid blend including lesser elements of Orientalid, Turanid, Ladogan, Alpine, Dinaric and Nordish origin. (Genetic studies of the Ashkenazic Jews have found that their ancestry is 60-70% Middle Eastern [i.e., Armenid and Orientalid] and 30-40% European, with the European elements derived primarily from the maternal lines.) The Sephardic branch is primarily an Orientalid-Armenid blend hybridized with West Mediterraneans. The Oriental branch remains basically true to the pre-Diaspora type.”

I think that the ancestors of the Jews were basically a Semitic-Caucasic (from the Caucasus) blend, with the Caucasic coming from the Hurrians, then Ashkenazi’s ancestors may have picked up more Caucasic along the trip to Europe.


139 posted on 10/13/2013 8:49:09 PM PDT by Jacob Kell
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To: not2be4gotten.com

Modern Jews are partly descended from the Hebrews, they were just mixed.


140 posted on 10/13/2013 8:50:01 PM PDT by Jacob Kell
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To: rmlew

Weren’t the Palestinians also descended from other Semitic peoples, neither Arab nor Hebrew, such as the Moabites?


141 posted on 10/13/2013 8:50:54 PM PDT by Jacob Kell
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To: ek_hornbeck
There isn't much evidence of a Central Asian "genetic signature" among Jews. The male-inherited Y-chromosomes point of Middle Eastern origins (similar to Druze, Lebanese Arabs), the female-inherited mtDNA points to European origins (related to Italians). If most modern Jews were Khazars, you'd expect their haplotypes to cluster with Georgians, Armenians, etc, which they generally don't.
Actually, a study came out last year saying exactly this. However, Dr. Eran Elhaik, didn't seem to know when Khazaria existed, where it existed, or what populations it included. Hence the study, The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses. The study would be so bad as to be a parody of misuse of genetics, were it not publicized by low IQ and lazy journalists, Nazis, leftist antisemites, and Muslims. The study basically showed that many Ashkenazi Jews actually do have genetic similarities with Georgians and Armenians. Given that Armenia was called "Ashkenaz" in the Talmud, this is almost a self-evident point. But neither Georgia nor Armenia were ever part of Khazaria. This does not mean that Armenian and Georgian Jews did not move to Khazaria to flee Byzantine and Muslim oppression.

I wish I had been paying attention last year to point this out from day 1.

142 posted on 10/13/2013 9:43:34 PM PDT by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: SunkenCiv
That “khazaria” site is an ethnocentric agitprop site — “Over a thousand years ago, the far east of Europe was ruled by Jewish kings who presided over numerous tribes, including their own tribe: the Turkic Khazars.”
Are you saying that this was not the case from 740-969? That's almost as long as America has existed as a nation.
143 posted on 10/13/2013 9:46:48 PM PDT by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: Jacob Kell
Weren’t the Palestinians also descended from other Semitic peoples, neither Arab nor Hebrew, such as the Moabites?
Nabateans, Edomites, Romanized Syrian settlers...
144 posted on 10/13/2013 9:48:58 PM PDT by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: ek_hornbeck

However, isn’t it reasonable to argue that the same pressures (ostracism, oppression) that selected for placing a cultural premium on achievement and education also created a biological pressure for higher intelligence and achievement through natural selection? Not that oppression and minority status always does this - there are plenty of “minority” groups in America and in Europe who aren’t exactly known for being high-end achievers.

Yes, absolutely social pressures can manifest in natural selection and create greater ability at the genetic level. But the common tendency is to characterize any overtly observable differences between people as racial. It’s easier, a product of lazy minds who simply have to justify a predisposition of theirs by demonizing the opposition. This is what cultures of oppression do best, and its ugliest manifestation is not at street level, but at the boardroom level where people should know better but sabotage their thinking because they have to rationalize anti-social and criminal behavior. Why did millions migrate to the US and Europe if not to encounter a culture that was free from the corruption and criminality they found at home. In the past they assimilated and made our country great. But now they are kept from assimilation by leftist think tank idealogues who’s only job is to destroy America any way they can and keeping separatist racial or religious or national polarities alive and well as a destabilizing pressure point is at the top of their lists.


145 posted on 10/14/2013 1:46:37 PM PDT by Yollopoliuhqui
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To: Yehuda

Sounds good! I’ve been very happy now that Siracha is consistently kosher certified.

Before, I could only find the kosher Siracha in Israel.


146 posted on 10/15/2013 7:56:53 AM PDT by MeanWestTexan (Beware Obama's Reichstag Fire.)
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To: Verginius Rufus

“Prince Charles may be a descendant of Muhammad. “

John Kerry IS a descendant of Muhammad.

Seriously. It was on ancestry.com


147 posted on 10/15/2013 7:57:41 AM PDT by MeanWestTexan (Beware Obama's Reichstag Fire.)
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To: Yollopoliuhqui
Yes, absolutely social pressures can manifest in natural selection and create greater ability at the genetic level. But the common tendency is to characterize any overtly observable differences between people as racial. It’s easier, a product of lazy minds who simply have to justify a predisposition of theirs by demonizing the opposition. This is what cultures of oppression do best, and its ugliest manifestation is not at street level, but at the boardroom level where people should know better but sabotage their thinking because they have to rationalize anti-social and criminal behavior. Why did millions migrate to the US and Europe if not to encounter a culture that was free from the corruption and criminality they found at home. In the past they assimilated and made our country great. But now they are kept from assimilation by leftist think tank idealogues who’s only job is to destroy America any way they can and keeping separatist racial or religious or national polarities alive and well as a destabilizing pressure point is at the top of their lists.

Of course, the mirror image of the intellectual laziness that says "it's all genetic" is the leftist intellectual laziness turned dogma of "it's all environment" - i.e. if we only engineered the right social conditions, all differences among both groups and individuals would disappear.

148 posted on 10/15/2013 9:45:34 AM PDT by ek_hornbeck
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To: SunkenCiv

Actually the Normans conquered a good portion of southern Italy first, concluding with the conquest of Bari in 1071—the last Byzantine possession in the West. The next year the Norman conquest of Sicily began with the capture of Palermo.


149 posted on 10/15/2013 9:57:50 AM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: MeanWestTexan; Slings and Arrows; Jewbacca; Eleutheria5; Nachum

Your comment made me go back and check the bottle.

The printed hechsher is from a lesser known kashrus agency in Philadelphia called KTC, run by a Rabbi Alan Ira Silver, M.D.

http://www.koshertechnicalkonsultants.org/

they are listed (as are all) here

http://www.kashrut.com/agencies/

Sriracha also carries a hechsher from California; there’s some discussion of it here:

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/740431

And here’s the latest I could find;

http://www.kashrut.com/Alerts/?alert=A4324

The following kashrus information is from the Atlanta Kashruth Commission and the Rabbinical Council of California on May 7, 2013.
The following Huy Fong products are usable without a kosher symbol:
•Sriracha Hot Chili Sauce
•Sambal Oelek
•Chili Garlic Sauce
They are certified as kosher by the Rabbinical Council of California.

At the last link above some Rabbi does not “recommend” bottles with the old hechsher...


150 posted on 10/15/2013 11:55:28 AM PDT by Yehuda (Pres Obortion, Sen.McAnus, & Hillary Rotten Clinton all kiss the *ss of the muslim brotherhood.)
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