Here's How Much the Old Are Taking From the Young

finance.yahoo.com ^ | Nov 21, 2013 | Rick Newman

[Tau Food]

We now have nearly every senior citizen living on the government dole. Every day, more than 10,000 new people qualify for permanent senior welfare. As a group, the seniors naturally support their welfare programs (Social Security, Medicare, prescription drugs) and they vote in large numbers.

Our government will continue to grow each day until the numbers of these folks start dying off faster than their numbers grow. That's going to be about 2030. Unfortunately, until then, we can expect more and more (and not less) government.

[BlueStateMadness]

It is hard to empathize with someone who lays claim to your wealth based on your existence (or theirs).

I’m sorry, but the truth is terrible. Your money is gone. It sucks. A lot. A metric $hit-ton. But it is the unfortunate truth. I have come to terms with it. You’ve been paying for 40 years. I’ve been paying 15. I don’t expect it to be there when I retire because it is gone the minute it leaves my employer. I feel the same anguish every time I look at the ridiculous amount they extract from my paycheck. I don’t believe the politicians promises. It is unsustainable as all ponzi schemes are. Perpetuating it doesn’t make it better. Unless you think it’ll collapse after you are gone. (not very empathetic)

You are hung up on an investment that has no principal value. It does not exist. You cannot garner interest from nothing. Taking payments from someone else wont get your money back, it will only take from someone else. I guess its okay if it’s anonymous. Right?

It is wrong that your funds were taken, not stored, with no interest gained. You should have been free to invest as you wish. It is wrong as you said.

The whole point of this exchange was to try to help you think about the validity of the transfer of wealth and the role of government in our lives. That said would you rather your children be exempt from the system with the stipulation they not receive benefits later? How about if they paid in knowing they wouldn’t receive, with the stipulation that the whole thing got phased out?

Insinuating that I’m a nazi is not helpful. You are advocating socialism, not I.

There’s a difference between believing something and living it. If its boiler plate BS, what about it does everybody believe?

Social security is doomed. We can have pain now, or more pain later. Wealth transfer is a wrong and unsustainable.

All this said. Please tell my why it is okay to take from one man and give to another.

[BlueStateMadness]

agreed, it has always been a transfer system.

[BwanaNdege]

“20 and out” has GOT TO change!!

what a wonderful, catchy protest slogan! Similar to "54-40 or Fight" or "Save the Baby Seals"!

/s

What do you say to those in the military who did not make their "20", who were killed in the line of duty before reaching their 20th birthday?

My company in Vietnam began a patrol with 243 men. Three weeks later we returned to the battalion perimeter with 90 or 95 remaining. Most of our losses were wounded, or malaria or dysentery, but we did have 40 KIA during those 3 weeks. I was medevaced with a fever of 105.6 and missed the next patrol. We had 30 KIA during that one while I was in the hospital.

Military service in the combat arms branches bears no comparison to any civilian retirement plans, not even the police or firemen.

[mrsmith]

I’m trying to get you to see the problem with SS:
Those funds no longer go to investment. It goes to spending: the “trust fund” immediately loans any surplus to the government to be immediately spent by the government.
It no longer goes to build wealth but to government spending that doesn’t build wealth.

Sure it get’s a ‘return’ since the government pays an intrest- but it no longer creates wealth in the economy.

The true problem the young have is that the economy will not support paying retirees a reasonable sum because so much investment that would have created the wealth to do so has been instead spent by the government.

[mrsmith]

“it has always been a transfer system”

In the sense that all taxes ‘transfer’ money from a person to the government, yes.

[BlueStateMadness]

That’s because they (militray & vets) aren’t a coveted constituency.

It should not be so. We owe them a debt, a tangible one, for their service; and for the toll it takes on their bodies and minds. The gov has its priorities messed up.

Support the Wounded Warrior Project. Pick up where the government drops warriors off.

[BwanaNdege]

That’s because they (military & vets) aren’t a coveted constituency.

Tommy

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

Rudyard Kipling

[DoughtyOne]

Well that was telling. First I wasn’t directing it at you personally, obviously you took it that way. So I’ll respond with the same level of respect...as it isn’t a one way street, apparently you need reminding.

1. Sorry that was complete B. S.
2. Your generation, more than any other, has stacked the deck to benefit THEM at the expense of future generations while knowing there will be fewer of them to pay for it.

(The workforce in 1953, at the mid Babby Boomer time-frame was 50 million.  The workforce in 2013 was 134 million.  The population in 1953 was 160 million.  Today it's 317 million.  While the number of people retiring each day is growing, there are twice as many people working to provide for them, in a manner of speaking.  What else is happening right now?  More jobs are being vacated as well.  Seniors are leaving the jobs market, and new hires are coming on board.  You could just as easily be happy right now.  You have chosen not to be.)

Yeah, thanks for not going personal.

Probably the most ignorant rant I’ve ever read.  Thank you.  I am quite content to have folks realize we don't agree here.

So genius, by your logic, it wouldn’t matter if one generation causes another to be homeless and starving...”thems are the breaks!” right?   So in your opinion the next generation is going homeless and starving?  Well okay, if you say so it must be true.  If not, then tossing that out there was pointless.

Only a selfish fool would have the opinion that an unsustainable system should just be allowed to go on, no matter how bad it gets for the future generations, and somehow conclude that you and your entire generation had nothing to do with it? Brilliant!  ...keep the status quo, so long as it doesn’t affect you right?  You should go back and read this post for the first time.  LINK  You absorbed nothing from it.  Did I state we should stick with the status quo?  No.  I said the agreement made to today's seniors should be honored, but that the Social Security system should be revamped.  I went to some lengths to mention some ideas that could make the next generations retirements much better than ours.  You glossed right over that to come back and make the idiotic claim above.

Who holds more responsibility for the current situation? Your generation or the younger one? OF COURSE you have some responsibility (as do all of us)...your entire generation does, it certainly isn’t the fault of newborn babies! Maybe you think so? Did your generation not allow the current system to continue to exist, perpetuate and get worse? Yes, it did. Take some responsibility! As do I!   Okay, then you're responsible for the Obama administration.  You're responsible for Medicare Part D passing.  You're responsible for Obamacare.  You're responsible for our sending munitions to the terrorists in Libya and Syria.  You see how this works dumb ass.  You can't just lay this at the feet of the people who worked hard and kept their nose to the grindstone, anymore than the next generation can blame you for the damage Obama has done to our nation.  Some things are out of your hands.  It seems your comprehension skills are such that they allow you to think that everyone that is retiring on Social Security today is thrilled with it, and they loved the idea of being shafted the whole time they were working paying into the system.  That's a child's view of reality.  It is not an adult realist's view.

You laugh at my comment about stacking the deck but then rant on “...and you’re doing the same thing!” (playing the game). First, it isn’t a game. Second, you’re admitting I’m right....just that you have a 20-30 year lead on me, years where I couldn’t do anything. Fine, you win! Glad you don’t give a crap about anybody else.  Me, me, me, me, me, me, OH...  woe is me.  Good grief.  I'm beginning to see where the next generation's values are coming from.  Just becasue I was saddled with a Social Security system I didn't devise, it doesn't mean I don't give a fig about anyone but myself.  I do however have a right to continue to live.  You seem to have some fanticized view of the amount of money folks without pensions or large pools of saving retire on.  I come into contact with people nearly every day who are barely making it.  Frankly, it's quite depressing.  They don't have their youth.  They don't have their health.  Many of them don't have family.  It's quite depressing really.  And here you are talking like they should give up what they do have.  And you actually think I'm the person who isn't caring.

Yes, it is the nature of the young to whine and complain. Well, I had been leaning in that direction until reading your posts.  Now I'm having to reconsider where those kids got their values.

It doesn’t mean you should just completely ignore what is being said.  Well, it depends on WHAT IS being said.

That said, it is also the nature of ALL of us to be selfish...and never be the one to blame. You’re as guilty as anybody, proven throughout your response.  You know, there's very little difference between you and the old KGB.  The KGB would come up with some hair-brained charge against citizens of the U. S. S. R., and then those citizens were twice as guilty if they didn't admit to everything, refrain from defending themselves, and go quietly to the gulag.

It sounds like me, me, me...I’m not gonna be the one that gets screwed, it’s not my fault wah! - let it be the next guys, how is that not selfish whining too?  Once again, you make charges, cast blame, and then expect me to silently sit here and type in responses like "Yes sir.", "Oh yes that's right.", "Oh if it would only help, I'd be happy to live on the street in a few years, take a pass on my Social Security I paid in for over 40 years, just so you can have life easier.", and "Where do I sign up for that.  I'm so excited!"  Well, not gonna happen.  If that bothers you, you came to the wrong place to make an ass of yourself.  I'm not going to let you skew things against people who didn't have a way to overpower the government any more than you do now.

Maybe your generation, for those with enough money for retirement, should forgo their SS checks....how much do you want to bet that won’t happen? I’d bet everything I own! Sorry but you’re being incredibly self-righteous. You almost sound like a politician, just kick the can down the road.  Do you have any idea how stupid some of these suggestions make you look?

1. Today's Social Security Retirees should just forgo their Social Security checks.
2. You know that isn't going to happen, (because these people are so f--king evil.)
3. You're so sure they're evil and won't do it, you'd bet everything you own.
4. And on top of that, I'm supposed to be self-righteous.
5. I almost sound like a politician.
6. I want to just kick the can down the road.

And of course this all makes logical sense to you, and if I object I'm a vile person who is only out for himself.  Yep, I'm the only guy who is retiring soon.  I'm the only guy in the U. S. who is on or going to be on Social Security for the next few decades.

What I find really startling here, is that we chastize Obama for having death pannels.  Why?  We've got our own craven sect present on this forum that wants the older folks to just die now.  Hey everyone of retirement age, I want you to take a pass on your Social Security, lose your home, lose the ability to buy food, cloth yourself, and exist.  And hey, if you all don't comply with my demands, I'll call you every vile thing I can think up.

Admit it.  You think I'm evil because I won't buy into this.  Okay, give a guy enough rope and all...

And you’re wrong about the “only alternative”. You ignore a phased approach. We start to lower the SS payout at an increasing rate over time (decades) for those going into it later, not those already in. At the same time you’ll be able to proportionately require less from the younger generations to pay for it. Phase it out, it is the only way. Nobody said just “end it now”, that would be rather stupid and heartless - shock(!), we don’t want that! I never said “change the game on them”. You put words in my mouth and vilified me for it. I don’t want to be selfish and have our seniors not be able to get by...you, however, seem fine with new debt and financial chaos because you’ll be gone by the time we need to pay the piper. Me, well, I’m sure you think I want to see my retired parents destitute right? Sigh, not everybody is as stupid as you think they are. It *was* pretty stupid to jump to the conclusion that I just wanted to “kill you and start over”. Seriously, that’s your argument? And you’re accusing me of stupidity?

Up above this diatribe, you stated that folks should just forego their Social Security.  I've got a plan.  Why don't you and your children forego Social Security.  You pay in for 40 plus years, and then take your own advice.  Problem solved.

Phased approch?  Duh.  Ya think?
...later, for those going in, not those already in.  LOL, you just got through suggesting folks who paid into the Social Security sustem for 40 plus year should forego their checks.  That's people right now bub.
Nobody said... LMAO

Your parents..., LOL, weren't thinking of them when you were tossing around the insults were you.

Here's what you said.  "Maybe your generation, for those with enough money for retirement, should forgo their SS checks."  Okay, then what you're proposing is that people today donate to your generation between $70 to $200 thousand dollars, and perhaps a great deal more.  And that's just one person.  If both husband and wife were pouring money in, you could double that.  Seems to me like you're saying...  Hey, I've got a great idea here.  Just donate to my generation today!  And if you don't you're the one who is selfish!  I don't want to support your generation like you did the one before you, but hey, I'm reasoned and you weren't.  Have tin cup, will post on Free Republic...

We’re headed for a disaster, you can see it coming, yet apparently I’m a 14 year old girl for pointing it out.  You're a 14 year old girl, for using the logic of a 14 year old girl.  I'm not forgoing my Social Security.  If you don't like it, screw you.

I guess with age comes the arrogance that you know better than everybody else, to you everybody is just whining when they’re on a sinking ship.  I guess with youth comes the natural tendency to be ignorant and bombastic, without realizing you are.

Screw you. You’ve become nasty, cold and narrow minded. If you think there isn’t a growing and unsustainable problem you have your head in the sand.  And yet, "Nobody said just “end it now”, that would be rather stupid and heartless..."  Perhaps you can do us all a favor, and when you settle on one core belief, let us know.

What have you done about it? I just see you blaming everybody else and saying to the young, “tough **it”. What am I doing about it? I vote and put my $$$$ where my mouth is. I perpetually give to numerous charities and causes. Do you? I bet not, you’re owed by society right? Mine! Mine! Mine!. YOU sound like a 3 year old. I’m surprised you’re on FR....you have a simpleton view of the world, plus you don’t care about anybody else.

Where to start with some of this nonsense?

We toughed it.  Sorry you folks aren't up to toughing it.  Pull up your diapers, cause it looks like you're going to need them.  You vote.  Wow, impressive.  No, I've never voted.  I've never gone out and worked the street for causes.  I've never donated money.  I don't give to charities, and in fact I know nobody in my generation did.  Those folks who said that Conservatives have given the most in this nation, and this nation has donated more than any other nation in history, had it all wrong.  Your generation is the charitable one.  I'm owned by society.  Yep, that's it.  You've got me pegged.  Very good.

I don't have a simpleton's view of the world, but you were close.  I do have a view of a consummate simpleton..., one who just spilled his brains on isle 118.

I think that strikes the same tone and level of respect you showed me. Fair? or are you going to whine about it?  Well anything I say in disagreement is whining, so yes, I've whined.  On the other hand, you've done a great job of relating to the forum just what your goals are.

Now, if you want to have an adult conversation let me know...but don’t you dare talk to me like I’m a whining teenager, who do you think you are?  Oh you've made it pretty clear who you are.

I’ve gone through my hard times, days I couldn’t put a meal on the table for my family - but I fought through it and made something of myself. Well, I can say with assurance nobody in my generation had to go through things like this.

I raised a U.S. Marine thank you very much and I didn’t do it by whining and being a bad example.  Okay, then I really should forego making any defense here.  That makes it clear my generation is a generation of fools.  None of us fought on foreign soil, or raised kids who did.  I'm so ashamed right now...  /s

Now I’m paying out my rear in endless taxes, pay insane education costs and see MY retirement threatened (just waiting for them to come after my 401k) - when I did everything right. Ooops, I’m whining again right?

My generation did things right too.  We worked hard, did what was supposed to make us secure in our future.  Now folks are telling us how evil we were to do it.  I'm sure my whole generation, if they were able to read your post, would appologize profusely to you for having the audacity to live in a home, clothe themselves, eat, or much of anything else, other than live off scraps on the street.

My luckier genration than yours saw major downturns in the mid 1990s, and early 2000s that made major negative impace on our savings.  The crash in 2008/2009 crushed a lot of people's hopes and dreams.  They're the lucky folks you talk about here.

Now morons come to the forum to tell my generation how selfish they are, how heartless they are, how incredibly uncaring they are, now that they won't donate their Social Security to other generations, and just die.

You are double talking through most of this.  It hasn't gone un-noticed.

[DoughtyOne]

It is hard to empathize with someone who lays claim to your wealth based on your existence (or theirs).

My generation didn't think in terms like this.  We didn't trash people who retired and took their Social Security payments.  We participated on Social Security withholding.  We saw no rationalle for trashing people who were retired.

I’m sorry, but the truth is terrible. Your money is gone. It sucks. A lot. A metric $hit-ton. But it is the unfortunate truth. I have come to terms with it. You’ve been paying for 40 years. I’ve been paying 15. I don’t expect it to be there when I retire because it is gone the minute it leaves my employer. I feel the same anguish every time I look at the ridiculous amount they extract from my paycheck. I don’t believe the politicians promises. It is unsustainable as all ponzi schemes are. Perpetuating it doesn’t make it better. Unless you think it’ll collapse after you are gone. (not very empathetic)

You know what, the Social Security system is not broke because of the retirements of people who working all their lives and paid in.  It's going broke because of all the people who did not pay into Social Security that are now drawing from it.  That is the reason why the ratio of Social Security fund payers is so low to the number of people drawing on Social Security.   Fix that one problem, and Social Security suddenly become healthy.  If you study the size of the workforce now to around 1953, and the population now to about 1953, you'll note that we have a much larger base of current payers into the Social Security system.  I can't help it that foreign nationals were brought here, that the beneficiaries and recipients of Social Security payments is always being expanded.

If you want to do something productive, focus on that and fix what we couldn't.  And when you try to do that, we'll sympathize with you when they call you a racist or a mysoginist or whatever else they can hurl your way.  Good luck.

You are hung up on an investment that has no principal value. It does not exist. You cannot garner interest from nothing. Taking payments from someone else wont get your money back, it will only take from someone else. I guess its okay if it’s anonymous. Right?

Sniff, sniff... stop it, I'm getting all misty.

It is wrong that your funds were taken, not stored, with no interest gained. You should have been free to invest as you wish. It is wrong as you said.

And we agree on this, but I couldn't change it anymore than you can change what Barack Obama is doing today.  If you want to blame me for what government did, then allow me to start blaming you for what government is doing.  Sound reasoned?

The whole point of this exchange was to try to help you think about the validity of the transfer of wealth and the role of government in our lives. That said would you rather your children be exempt from the system with the stipulation they not receive benefits later? How about if they paid in knowing they wouldn’t receive, with the stipulation that the whole thing got phased out?

You don't know how much I appreciate you younger folks helping me.  I've only been thinking about this for around fifty years.  God Lord, not this s--t again.  Okay great, you know what sound principles are.  Big whoop moment.  Who doesn't here?  We are stuck with a system in place that neither of us likes or wants.  It will have to be phased out as a trasition takes place.  I realize that, and just about everyone does.  Try bringing that up on the forum and about all you'll get for it is a bunch of wisecracks.  I placed a list of things I would like to see on this thread.  Crickets.

Insinuating that I’m a nazi is not helpful. You are advocating socialism, not I.

This is what you stated:

You are a moocher. Not only do you condone generational theft, you relish in the pain of those you’re mooching from. You would take pleasure if a bird pooped on me. Maybe you should look at the term schadenfreude and contemplate on whether or not that term describes you.  You can’t take back something that has already been spent. You are mischaracterizing what is happening to yourself in order to redeem your actions and motives. No one can guilt you into anything, for you must have principals and values before you may have guilt.

Please link me to where I stated or intimated I would enjoy it if a bird pooped on you.  Since you were making stuff up as you went along, I figured two could play that game.  I didn't make a value statement regarding the bird's actions.

Now, you're calling me a moocher becasue I plan on taking my Social Security payments  You call it generational theft.  Of course this ignores that it was theft when I paid in also.  You'll have to pardon me, but the only alternative is to not take the Social Security payments.  If I don't take them, I'll in short order lose my home, my vehicle, my ability to eat, and other things that are necessary to sustain life.  So you can go ahead and puff up your chest and say that you're not advocating the things that will ultimately happen if we listen to you and do was you demand.  At the same time, we'll see what you demand for what it is.  And as far as I am concerned, the NAZI model is the only thing that comes close.

You will have to exterminate a genration of people to prevent people from being moochers or generations thieves.  Either you mean what you say, or you're just blowing off steam and having fully thought this out.

There’s a difference between believing something and living it. If its boiler plate BS, what about it does everybody believe?  It's boiler plate, because you just toss it out there in the face of reality.  You say you don't believe in the NAZI-like solutions one minute, then turn right around and demand the 'pain now' solution.  They're the same thing.  So you're blathering...  

Social security is doomed. We can have pain now, or more pain later. Wealth transfer is a wrong and unsustainable.

Okay, since that's what you truly believe...

What would it be if today's retirees who paid in $70 to $200 thousand dollars into the Social Security system, followed your direction, and refused to take Social Security payments?  Which generation would benefit?  Wouldn't that be a complete forgiveness of the next generation of retirees, of the type of obligation of this generation of retirees?  Wouldn't that in effect be a transfer of this generation's reasoned expectation, to the next generation?  Of course it would.  That is unreasonable.

You think nothing of demeaning and demanding this generation of retirees forego their Social Security checks, but I'm thinking you'd be quite upset if I suggested we freeze any new retirees going on to Social Security payments, but the workers today would be required to pay 40 more years anyway.  Hey, someone has to bite the bullet right?

All this said. Please tell my why it is okay to take from one man and give to another.

All this said, I don't have to justify the system we have.  It is.  People played by the rules set down, and they have no alternative other than to turn to the Social Security system as part of their retirement funding.

The only alternative would result in the deaths of many retirees in short order.  This is something you denied you would support taking place.  In fact, you were very indignant when I told you who it reminded me of, and their tactics.

I have made it quite clear why my take on the current Social Security system is.  I have made it clear what direction I would like to see things go in.  If folks choose to read what I've posted, they'll understand how unfair I think the current system is.  That doesn't mean that today's Social Security can be turned off like a water tap.  It will take time, and some folks will fight the fix tooth and nail too.

[ilgipper]

Agreed. A very elderly person today paid less in than they get back. For the majority of those getting SS and Medicare, they paid a hell of a lot over the past 3-4 decades.

[Boogieman]

They didn’t put the money in anywhere, they spent it. It’s long gone, and didn’t gain any interest or dividends to cover your increased, inflation-adjusted benefits.

[cuban leaf]

Technically, all money you give to the FedGov is long gone.

[cuban leaf]

Technically, all money you give to the FedGov is long gone.

Same is true with requirement accounts, Cd’s, etc. But the organization to which you transferred the money, even though they loaned it out to other entities, agrees to give it back to you based on rules to which you both agreed. Of course, when you agreed with the FedGov, they had a gun to your head.

But the point is that it really is YOUR money, regarding SS retirement (as opposed to SS disability).

[Boogieman]

“Technically, all money you give to the FedGov is long gone.”

Yes, but it’s only relevant when it comes to SS type programs, where people have some expectation that they are going to get it back.

“Same is true with requirement accounts, Cd’s, etc. But the organization to which you transferred the money, even though they loaned it out to other entities, agrees to give it back to you based on rules to which you both agreed.”

No, it’s entirely different. SS is not some funded annuity, or savings, or insurance program. All those other programs you mention are regulated, and the money you paid in, while it can be spent, is being used by the financial institutions to make profits, which will cover your interest and gains. Not so in the case with government. Also, those other savings plans are not going to pay out more than you paid in, plus whatever gains were accrued, while Social Security is an open-ended liability to the government. The closest thing to SS is a pension plan, but if you compare it one of those, it would be a pension plan that was robbed blind by the corrupt union bosses managing it.

[cuban leaf]

Since what you get out is dependent on what you put in, it is more like those programs than other entitlements, except unemployment insurance. That was the point I was trying to make.

[Mr. K]

I am talking about government jobs at home - NOT military

[RFEngineer]

“yes, we’ve paid in”

I’m not picking on you, in particular, just noticing the similar wording from folks wanting their benefits.

The term “paid in” seems to be nearly universal.

What does that mean to people who use it?

What if “paid in” meant you got far more out than you “paid in” would that affect your expectations?

What if “paid in” meant you got far less than you “paid in” do you think that would affect peoples expectations?

Facts are stubborn things. “Paid in” for the present generation of benefit recipients means they get far more out than they should have expected based on amounts “paid in” which is the source of SS/Medicare’s popularity.

For younger generations “paid in” means far far less than it does for their parents generation.

It’s not class warfare to point it out. It’s class insanity to leave the present benefit structure in place.

[RFEngineer]

“Only a moron or a shyster would try to convince me that the “take only what you’ve paid in without anything else considered” is realistic or reasonable.”

Actually only a moron would have any expectation of receiving SS/Medicare over the short, medium, or long term at this point. The money is borrowed. We don’t have it, we’re just pretending at this point - and the younger generations are not going to pay it back, which is the only saving grace in this whole ponzi scheme.

It will be tough on those dependent on SS/Medicare, but thems the breaks.

[BwanaNdege]

Sorry, my wrong assumption.