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BREAKING: Detroit CAN file bankruptcy; pensions CAN be reduced forcibly
WXYZ-TV ^ | 12/3/2013 | Ross Jones

Posted on 12/03/2013 8:42:44 AM PST by VideoPaul

Officially, the City of Detroit is the largest municipality in U.S. history to enter Chapter 9 bankruptcy.

(Excerpt) Read more at wxyz.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events; US: Michigan
KEYWORDS: bankruptcy; detroit; michigan; pension
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1 posted on 12/03/2013 8:42:44 AM PST by VideoPaul
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To: VideoPaul

I must confess. I’d even mentioned even on another thread that I thought a judge would have gone completely in another direction. Mea Culpa, my bad, so sad, slap my ass and call me Suzie.


2 posted on 12/03/2013 8:44:48 AM PST by Gaffer
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To: Gaffer

Hi, Suzie! (-:


3 posted on 12/03/2013 8:45:39 AM PST by MeganC (Support Matt Bevin to oust Mitch McConnell! https://mattbevin.com/)
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To: VideoPaul

Good. This business about politicians giving away our future for political favors needs to come to an end.


4 posted on 12/03/2013 8:46:39 AM PST by Fido969
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To: VideoPaul

“Calling pensions a contract, [Judge] Rhodes says that it’s widely understood that bankruptcy allows contracts to be impaired. It seems like he’s laying the groundwork for cuts to pensions, but we’ll see.

Rhodes says that pensions have protections under the Michigan constitution, but don’t have protection in federal bankruptcy court.”

This is a huge precedent. It means that states that protect public pensions with their state constitutions are still subject to bankruptcy like any other contract.

This will get appealed to the court of appeals, and will almost certainly be certworthy after the appeals court ruling.


5 posted on 12/03/2013 8:46:56 AM PST by VideoPaul
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To: VideoPaul
Lease Detroit to the Chi-Coms in return for a write-down in debt. They will have a special administrative region, sort of like Hong Kong, on North American soil. The residents will vote in local, but not state and national, elections.

Give it 50 years or so, but you will have a lot of Chinese speaking black people well trained in capitalism once the lease expires.

6 posted on 12/03/2013 8:47:56 AM PST by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: VideoPaul
Nonsense. Apparently, nobody got the memo from The Won back in Oct 2012.....

“We refused to throw in the towel and do nothing. We refused to let Detroit go bankrupt. We bet on American workers and American ingenuity, and three years later, that bet is paying off in a big way.”

7 posted on 12/03/2013 8:48:34 AM PST by edpc (Wilby 2016)
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To: edpc

Well, you can keep your insurance if you like it as well.


8 posted on 12/03/2013 8:49:21 AM PST by VideoPaul
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To: VideoPaul

Do we still have a Piper to pay?


9 posted on 12/03/2013 8:49:43 AM PST by billhilly (Has Pelosi read it yet?)
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To: VideoPaul
This will get appealed to the court of appeals, and will almost certainly be certworthy after the appeals court ruling.

Which brings us full-circle back around to Harry Reid's sudden decision to kill off the filibuster...


10 posted on 12/03/2013 8:50:37 AM PST by Buckeye McFrog
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To: VideoPaul

And your doctor.


11 posted on 12/03/2013 8:50:42 AM PST by edpc (Wilby 2016)
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To: Springman; cyclotic; netmilsmom; RatsDawg; PGalt; FreedomHammer; queenkathy; madison10; ...
Bankruptcy goes forward and union pensions are not protected. Judge says city didn't negotiate in good faith.

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

Michigan legislative action thread
12 posted on 12/03/2013 8:52:29 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: Gaffer

I also expected the same as you did...Hi, I’m Babbette, friend of Suzie ;-)


13 posted on 12/03/2013 8:53:34 AM PST by Bobalu (White Boy Think A Lot)
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To: Vigilanteman

‘Lease Detroit to the Chi-Coms in return for a write-down in debt. They will have a special administrative region, sort of like Hong Kong, on North American soil. The residents will vote in local, but not state and national, elections.’

And what would be the amount of the debt write-down? What is the fair market value of a corrupt, crime-ravaged, crumbling city with a criminal population?


14 posted on 12/03/2013 8:54:13 AM PST by lurk
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To: VideoPaul

We 401k and IRA holders have to take a hit every time the market tanks, why shouldn’t public sector employees take a hit every time the government tanks?


15 posted on 12/03/2013 8:54:22 AM PST by struggle
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To: VideoPaul

This will get appealed to the USSC. If the unions lose there, they’ll find some grounds to appeal it again. This will happen five or ten times, by which time the Court will have been stuffed with communists.


16 posted on 12/03/2013 8:55:15 AM PST by Steely Tom (If the Constitution can be a living document, I guess a corporation can be a person.)
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To: Gaffer

It ain’t over till it’s over..................


17 posted on 12/03/2013 8:56:25 AM PST by Red Badger (Proud member of the Zeta Omicron Tau Fraternity since 2004...................)
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To: VideoPaul

Govt pensions should be reduced prospectively but not against those workers who have already earned them. ( That would really be unfair. )


18 posted on 12/03/2013 8:59:28 AM PST by faithhopecharity
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To: Fido969

Absolutely...this is the proper recourse for “their” perverse generosity of the taxpayer’s money.


19 posted on 12/03/2013 9:00:40 AM PST by Hotlanta Mike ("Governing a great nation is like cooking a small fish - too much handling will spoil it." Lao Tzu)
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To: edpc

Nonsense. Apparently, nobody got the memo from The Won back in Oct 2012.....

“We refused to throw in the towel and do nothing. We refused to let Detroit go bankrupt. We bet on American workers and American ingenuity, and three years later, that bet is paying off in a big way.”


D’oh! Another Obama lie....


20 posted on 12/03/2013 9:01:36 AM PST by Hotlanta Mike ("Governing a great nation is like cooking a small fish - too much handling will spoil it." Lao Tzu)
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To: Gaffer

“. Mea Culpa, my bad, so sad, slap my ass and call me Suzie.”

That’s usually an extra 10 bucks. Do you take Bitcoin?


21 posted on 12/03/2013 9:01:38 AM PST by EQAndyBuzz ("Senator Cruz basically made the Democrats fight for a whole bunch of things that they already had.")
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To: edpc

We refused to let Detroit go bankrupt. PERIOD.

(LOL! thanks for the reminder, edpc)


22 posted on 12/03/2013 9:02:39 AM PST by PGalt
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To: Gaffer
What, an honest judge?

How does the Judge's Union explain this?

23 posted on 12/03/2013 9:02:42 AM PST by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it, and the Constitution and law mean what WE say.)
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To: lurk
 What is the fair market value of a corrupt, crime-ravaged, crumbling city with a criminal population?

And why would they want Detroit when they already have made an offer for Washington.

24 posted on 12/03/2013 9:16:35 AM PST by KarlInOhio (Everyone get online for Obamacare on 10/1. Overload the system and crash it hard!)
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To: VideoPaul

There’s a documentary called Burn. It’s about the Detroit Fire Department. They are by far the busiest urban fire service in the world, running on a shoestring with old apparatus. One fire truck had 175,000 miles on it.

I think they would do well to open an urban fire academy to teach other departments how to fight fires under that level of stress.

Gee, they could actually make some money.


25 posted on 12/03/2013 9:16:38 AM PST by cyclotic (Hey BSA-I'm gone. Walk Worthy-traillifeusa.com)
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To: VideoPaul

States need to assert their independence from the Feral Government.


26 posted on 12/03/2013 9:16:42 AM PST by Paladin2
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To: faithhopecharity

And it would be fair to raise taxes on individuals and businesses? Hell NO!!!! As they say....You Pays your money, and takes your chances.....just like everybody else!!!
Shame on them for believing in skittle defecating unicorns!


27 posted on 12/03/2013 9:19:26 AM PST by free from tyranny
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To: cripplecreek; All
Detroit Eligible To File Chapter 9; Pension Haircuts Allowed Bankruptcy Judge Rules

Update, and it's official:

As somewhat expected - though hoped against by many Detroit union workers - Judge Steven Rhodes appears to have confirmed Detroit is eligible for bankruptcy protection (after pointing out that the city's accounting was accurate and it is indeed insolvent) making this the largest ever muni bankruptcy. The city will now begin working toward its next major move - the submission of a plan to re-adjust its more than $18 billion in debt - including significant haircuts for pension funds (possibly 16c on the dollar recovery) and bondholders. With Detroit as precedent, we can only imagine the torrent of other cities in trouble that will be willing to fold.
28 posted on 12/03/2013 9:21:26 AM PST by Zakeet (If socialists understood economics, they wouldn't be socialists - Friedrich Hayek)
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To: VideoPaul

“Elections have consequences.”


29 posted on 12/03/2013 9:22:25 AM PST by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer")
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To: faithhopecharity

I don’t blame members for being angry but their anger should be directed at union and political leadership for making deals everybody knew were unsustainable.

One way I would try to help them out is offering up abandoned properties tax free for cleaning up for later sale. If they want to keep the properties themselves, waive the back taxes and let them pay the taxes going forward. I think there are probably lots of options to help them out.

As far as the city is concerned, they have to ease up on taxes and regulation to bring the thriving underground economy back above ground.


30 posted on 12/03/2013 9:23:26 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: faithhopecharity

Public sector pensions should be reduced to match the average private sector pension. Retroactivly.


31 posted on 12/03/2013 9:25:20 AM PST by Cementjungle
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To: VideoPaul

bkmk


32 posted on 12/03/2013 9:29:20 AM PST by Sergio (An object at rest cannot be stopped! - The Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight)
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To: Zakeet
I'm now reading Domestic Enemies: The Reconquista by Bracken, where he describes an economy where all pensioners are now impoverished. Spooky to see it happen.

Liberal judges are OK with this because they know that pensioners don't pay into union coffers. Liberal judges are OK with shifting money from pensioners back to government workers who contribute to Democrats.

33 posted on 12/03/2013 9:30:52 AM PST by aimhigh
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To: faithhopecharity

So any promise made no matter how untenable is sacrosanct? Are you a government employee pensioner? Unions agreed to take promises in the hope that they could force contributions. The only thing that counts in a pension fund is hard assets. If the unions would have insisted on immediate cash contributions the politicians and voters would have scaled things way back. Instead they hoped to force a future someonelse to pay.

Sorry but I am under no obligation to fund promises I was not a party to.


34 posted on 12/03/2013 9:31:42 AM PST by FreedomNotSafety
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To: VideoPaul

If this ruling survives the myriad appeals, how long before Washington uses it to reduce Military Pensions, etc.


35 posted on 12/03/2013 9:39:51 AM PST by commish (The takers rule. Time to implement the triple G plan - GOD, GUNS, & GOLD)
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To: VideoPaul

“Dear retired city employees of Detroit who supported the Democrats: Yes, we Democrat politicians took off with the money and left you with an empty bag, but it is a nice bag. We got it in Tahiti on a vacation that you paid for. See, we’re always thinking of you! So you’ll have less money each month. Big deal. Our champagne was tepid. We all have problems. The only way to fix this is for you to send even more money to the Democrat party! We Democrat politicians will then hold another meeting in Tahiti to figure this out. If you get hungry, just use your Democrat bag to catch some snipe. They’re full of vitamins! See, we’re always thinking of you! Love and kisses, The Democrat Politicians.”


36 posted on 12/03/2013 9:43:50 AM PST by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer")
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To: VideoPaul

Nice. Sorry about those who were depending on pensions and COLA’s but, this is totally unsupportable.


37 posted on 12/03/2013 9:46:02 AM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously-you won't live through it anyway-Enjoy Yourself ala Louis Prima)
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To: edpc

What he said was “If you like your Detroit, you can keep your Detroit...” and he’s following though on that promise, too! /s


38 posted on 12/03/2013 9:46:52 AM PST by IllumiNaughtyByNature ($1.84 - The price of a gallon of gas on Jan. 20th, 2009.)
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To: Vigilanteman

“Lease Detroit to the Chi-Coms in return for a write-down in debt. They will have a special administrative region, sort of like Hong Kong, on North American soil. The residents will vote in local, but not state and national, elections.”

Interesting, but not really a good idea.

To some degree this has happened all ready at some ports and construction projects here.


39 posted on 12/03/2013 9:47:58 AM PST by ifinnegan
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To: VideoPaul

The article is perfect timing as we were discussing over lunch the possibility of municipal pension failures.

A few people here are retired from government, receive their checks and can’t conceive of that ever happening.


40 posted on 12/03/2013 9:48:34 AM PST by Rebelbase (Tagline: optional, printed after your name on post)
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To: struggle
"We 401k and IRA holders have to take a hit every time the market tanks, why shouldn’t public sector employees take a hit every time the government tanks?"

That is a VERY good point.

41 posted on 12/03/2013 9:51:47 AM PST by circlecity
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To: Fido969

“Good. This business about politicians giving away our future for political favors needs to come to an end.”

Not sure this is the outcome of this. In fact, this just let’s the government off the hook. Gives the crooks a free pass to promise anything and not make good on it.

This is actually not good.

It will ultimately cause people outside of Detroit and Michigan to pay more to support those that the crooked politicians swindled.

Yes of course the problem is the unions and politicians and dem rule for decades.

This let’s them all off the hook, scot free.


42 posted on 12/03/2013 9:56:17 AM PST by ifinnegan
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To: struggle

Perhaps I’m misreading this. But the private sector - government sector argument is a little too simple in this case. The reason for that is because there are very, very, very few private sector companies still offering defined benefit plans - pensions - in the same way that the government sector does.

So when a large private sector company has to make cutbacks, it either fires people or reduces costs in other ways such as reducing its contribution to the 401k, or reducing its contribution to healthcare premiums, etc. What it cannot do is take the employee’s 401k or tell the employee that it will only receive 10 cents on the dollar from its 401k, which is what could happen to Detroit public employees under bankruptcy.

No doubt the public unions clamored for as many benefits as they could get. But the real bad guys here are the Detroit politicians who failed to say No. The clerks, administrators, janitors, etc. who were promised a pension and made career decisions based in part on that contractual commitment are hardly to blame and in all fairness should not bear the brunt of the bankruptcy. But of course they will.

I’d sure like to see a judge tell the city it won’t allow pensions to be stripped but in return there will be no more collective bargaining on anything but wages. Bondholders would get screwed, but then they certainly had an opportunity to read the prospectus.


43 posted on 12/03/2013 9:58:30 AM PST by lafarge (Vote American Conservative Party.)
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To: VideoPaul

This is good news for “rule of law”.

The union thugs thought they could BS their way with intimidation and absurd pre bankruptcy demands.

This is the people taking power back and away from the thug class.


44 posted on 12/03/2013 9:59:33 AM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: FreedomNotSafety

“Sorry but I am under no obligation to fund promises I was not a party to.”

Agree 100%.

This ruling would, though, make it such that you and I are now obligated to pay one way or the other for these people.

It just shifts the burden to support them to the Federal government and Obama is smiling big time.

Unions and crooked dem machine pols are singing happy songs for getting let off the hook.


45 posted on 12/03/2013 9:59:48 AM PST by ifinnegan
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To: All

say what you want but I do feel bad for those that are losing the benefits that were earned over the time of their employment. Even though it makes no sense to pay someone for not working, they did offer it and agreed to pay it as an incentive for employees.


46 posted on 12/03/2013 10:00:15 AM PST by newnhdad (Our new motto: USA, it was fun while it lasted.)
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To: lafarge

public employees view pensions as free money and a program to be scammed to the maximum self benifit.


47 posted on 12/03/2013 10:06:11 AM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: faithhopecharity
Govt pensions should be reduced prospectively but not against those workers who have already earned them. ( That would really be unfair. )"

I completely disagree. A contract that has no reasonable expectation of performance is not enforceable. The fact that union workers in the public sector sent their representatives to negotiate in bad faith, basically holding a gun to the the other party until their demands were met, and came out with promises that were a mathematical impossibility is not only the fault of the union leaders and pol's. It is also the fault of EVERY SINGLE UNION EMPLOYEE who advocated the position or silently sat back and quietly capitalized on it.


48 posted on 12/03/2013 10:06:15 AM PST by SouthParkRepublican
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To: Chode

of interest to you.


49 posted on 12/03/2013 10:08:16 AM PST by abb
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To: VideoPaul

Maybe this will allow the unthinkable: demolish the city to a far smaller, manageable size and return the areas that used to have buildings back into productive farmland for now. That could be the beginning of a rebirth of Detroit as a viable city in the very long run.


50 posted on 12/03/2013 10:10:26 AM PST by RayChuang88 (FairTax: America's economic cure)
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