Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

If Scotland Votes for Independence, Itís Going to Need an Army
War is Boring ^ | 1-22-2014 | Peter Vine

Posted on 01/22/2014 9:59:25 AM PST by DesScorp

This year voters in Scotland will decide whether to remain within the United Kingdom. Scottish sovereignty rides on two things: any eventual negotiations between London and Edinburgh and the gradually evolving position of the Scottish National Party, the primary backer of the independence bid. And if it happens, the resulting military reform is going to be a mess. If the vote is yay, the most optimistic date for negotiations is March 2016, but it isn’t out of the question that sticking points could push this back. Defense could be one of those points.

In its white paper on a newly independent Scotland, the SNP lists the potential new country’s needs in its first 10 years. The paper calls for an annual military budget of around £2.3 billion—$4.1 billion—with a standing army, navy and air force with 15,000 personnel.

It also declares that existing Scottish regiments would carry on their names, identities and traditions—and that those lost in previous defense re-organizations would be brought back.

Scotland would reposition its defense posture towards patrolling the coast, the North Atlantic and the North Sea and defending its maritime assets—specifically fishing grounds and oil. Scotland hopes to acquire 12 Eurofighter Typhoons from the Royal Air Force, two frigates from the Royal Navy’s current fleet and several offshore patrol vessels such as the current River class being built for the U.K. by BAE systems.

More at the link...

(Excerpt) Read more at medium.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: england; independence; scotland; uk
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-54 next last
Scotland is in for huge military problems if they secede. For one, they're living in fantasy land about how much military they can buy for the amount they're proposing. Likely, they'll simply go the New Zealand route... no real military at all... and expect that surrounding countries defend them anyway.
1 posted on 01/22/2014 9:59:25 AM PST by DesScorp
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: DesScorp

The RNZN has how many warships?


2 posted on 01/22/2014 10:02:11 AM PST by tgusa (gun control: deep breath, sight alignment, squeeze the trigger .......)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: DesScorp
Thanks for posting this.

I think it says they get the Scottish units back from the Royal Army. Secession from socialist GB is a first step in the right direction. I wish them luck.

3 posted on 01/22/2014 10:02:26 AM PST by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: DesScorp

I dont think these guys are thinking this through very well.

It’s almost like the desire to be independent to fulfill some “Scottish destiny” is blocking all of the serious consequences of being an actual nation.

It isnt like England forced them into this union. It was Scotland’s irresponsible fiscal practices that put them there.

And it looks like they haven’t learned a thing.


4 posted on 01/22/2014 10:05:31 AM PST by VanDeKoik
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: VanDeKoik
It was Scotland’s irresponsible fiscal practices that put them there.

I thought the Scots were 'thrifty'!.....................

5 posted on 01/22/2014 10:07:43 AM PST by Red Badger (Proud member of the Zeta Omicron Tau Fraternity since 2004...................)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: DesScorp

“If Scotland Votes for Independence, It’s Going to Need an Army”

That’s what “independence” means. Think about it any time “gun control” enters the conversation.


6 posted on 01/22/2014 10:08:02 AM PST by Moose Burger
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: central_va

All indications are that an independent Scotland will be way, way more Socialist than present day Great Britain.

With only 5 million people, and an average age that appears to be north of 45, staffing that military will not be an easy chore.


7 posted on 01/22/2014 10:11:32 AM PST by Buckeye McFrog
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Red Badger

After blowing the nations’s money on trying to colonize Panama, you would have to be! :)


8 posted on 01/22/2014 10:12:32 AM PST by VanDeKoik
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: central_va
"Thanks for posting this. I think it says they get the Scottish units back from the Royal Army. Secession from socialist GB is a first step in the right direction. I wish them luck. "

LOL, you don't know much about Scottish politics do you?

9 posted on 01/22/2014 10:15:38 AM PST by sinsofsolarempirefan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Buckeye McFrog

I suspect that they would have to go with the Swiss model. Rifle in every home, every male required to receive military training. Could be set up and executed within a couple of years. Hard to do overnight but very effective to prevent the country from being attacked.

They could make it compulsory as part of the education system. Similar to our JROTC program in High School. Learn to march, basic military ranks, general orders, basic first aid, basic military squad level tactics and basic rifle marksmanship in a 1 school year program.

BTW, this is something that I think we should be doing.


10 posted on 01/22/2014 10:17:47 AM PST by taxcontrol
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: sinsofsolarempirefan
LOL, you don't know much about Scottish politics do you?

Please inform us as to the state of Scottish Politics.

11 posted on 01/22/2014 10:18:34 AM PST by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: DesScorp

What are they going to be? The Antisemitic Republic of Scotland?


12 posted on 01/22/2014 10:22:03 AM PST by onedoug
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: central_va
You do know that the SNP is an explicitly socialist party, right? They're allied with the Greens in the European Parliament, and while the article doesn't go into this, they are, for all of their bluster about "Independence", very much pro-EU and internationalist in orientation. They just hate England. Fair enough, if that's what they want, but if you're expecting the hardy Scotland of William Wallace and the Scottish Enlightenment, you're going to be sorely disappointed. Because you're going to get Greece with cold weather. When a reporter asked Scottish youth voters about military defence, trade, etc, they kids said "Oh, that's what Europe is for".
13 posted on 01/22/2014 10:27:02 AM PST by DesScorp
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: central_va

Scottish MP’s lean much more left that Brittish. Actually, Brittain is going to be better off without them.


14 posted on 01/22/2014 10:28:00 AM PST by Mi-kha-el ((There is no Pravda in Izvestiya and no Izvestiya in Pravda.))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: DesScorp

I’ll admit that Scottish politics is not my forte.


15 posted on 01/22/2014 10:28:14 AM PST by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: DesScorp
"...The RAF’s presence in Scotland is being drawn down and with the scrapping of the Nimrod fleet, the U.K. has no airborne maritime patrol capability at all.

WHAT????

16 posted on 01/22/2014 10:32:02 AM PST by Former Proud Canadian (Cruz/Palin 2016)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sinsofsolarempirefan

LOL, you don’t know much about Scottish politics do you?

I’d actually like to know too. My first thought was “UK is 14th in economic freedom and Ireland is 9th, maybe Scotland could be have more freddom outside Great Britain (worked for us, for a while)” But would that work? Do they have the political will to be free?


17 posted on 01/22/2014 10:33:43 AM PST by thorvaldr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: central_va
Secession from socialist GB is a first step in the right direction. I wish them luck.

GB is socialist BECAUSE of the overwhemingly Leftist electorate in Scotland.

If they secede, they'll need all the luck you can wish them, and more.

18 posted on 01/22/2014 10:34:08 AM PST by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Former Proud Canadian

Nimrod:
The pictures in the news last year showed total destruction not mothballing.


19 posted on 01/22/2014 10:36:15 AM PST by moose07 (the truth will out ,one day.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Jim Noble

I’m not up on Scottish politics.


20 posted on 01/22/2014 10:37:25 AM PST by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Jim Noble
"GB is socialist BECAUSE of the overwhemingly Leftist electorate in Scotland."

Well, not quite. To be honest, the NHS-loving denizens of England chose Socialism themselves after WWII. It wasn't forced on them. They picked that route. It's just that the Scots are even more to the left than the English now. One of the reasons the Labour Party is fighting tooth and nail to keep Scotland in the Union is that the farther south you go in the UK, the higher percentage of Tory and LibDem voters. Scotland is very much an anchor for Labour.
21 posted on 01/22/2014 10:38:54 AM PST by DesScorp
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: DesScorp
Because you're going to get Greece with cold weather

Funny, but very accurate.

22 posted on 01/22/2014 10:39:34 AM PST by DoodleDawg
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Buckeye McFrog

It’s funny to watch the Scots and the Welsh have two completely different reactions to independence. Scots get their kilts all bunched up and have no clue that they are about to have to pay for a helluva lot more than they do now...the Welsh took exactly ten seconds to realize what independence meant in fiscal terms and don’t even consider it outside of hardcore nationalist corners of society.


23 posted on 01/22/2014 10:40:38 AM PST by ameribbean expat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: DesScorp

Why

What would happen if they had no army


24 posted on 01/22/2014 10:41:14 AM PST by morphing libertarian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Former Proud Canadian
"...The RAF’s presence in Scotland is being drawn down and with the scrapping of the Nimrod fleet, the U.K. has no airborne maritime patrol capability at all.

WHAT????


It's impossible to keep a first-class military when all the money is going to welfare, pensions, the NHS, etc. This is the path the British people themselves chose. This is why the British Empire died. This is why I call them Not So Great Britain now.
25 posted on 01/22/2014 10:41:43 AM PST by DesScorp
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: morphing libertarian
"What would happen if they had no army?"

For one, the Russians would use their sea and air space as a forward area of operations against NATO. Two, Russia, while making diplomatically nice, would basically run roughshod over their North Sea oil fields, and the money from those fields is one of their primary reasons for seceding... they want those oil fields all to themselves. Kind of hard to do sea control without a navy, though.

What's funny is that the Scots aren't worried about the Russians at all. Whatever military they do muster will, I guarantee you, be turned towards the English border. England will always be the Bogeyman that the SNP uses to keep the Scots in line. You'll see posters, propoganda campaigns, etc, about how England is always about to invade. Mark it.
26 posted on 01/22/2014 10:46:46 AM PST by DesScorp
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: ameribbean expat
Is there a strong Welsh independence movement?
27 posted on 01/22/2014 10:49:29 AM PST by warsaw44
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: DesScorp

So the Russians would be intimated by a scot military

Don’t believe it

Just pay uk as needed


28 posted on 01/22/2014 10:53:31 AM PST by morphing libertarian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: tgusa
The RNZN has how many warships?

Two:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_New_Zealand_Navy#Naval_Combat_Force

Naval Combat Force

The naval combat force currently consists of two Anzac class frigates: HMNZS Te Kaha and HMNZS Te Mana. Both ships are based at the Devonport Naval Base on Auckland's North Shore. Te Kaha was commissioned on 26 July 1997 and Te Mana on 10 December 1999.

The specifications and armaments of the two ships are identical.


29 posted on 01/22/2014 10:57:10 AM PST by jdege
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: sinsofsolarempirefan

I do know something about this Scottish National Party. They have murky and disturbing past, including founders who were strongly anti-semitic (despite the fact that there are not many Jews in Scotland.)

Mainly, though, an independent Scotland is impractical, and would be very expensive to run. This will not be another Switzerland. Furthermore, the vote may be close, which means that enthusiasm for independence does not run very deep. Nor will the vote end the issue: there will be many Scots who will be unhappy with independence, and will try to have it reversed, or will simply be uncooperative citizens. How will they be treated?

I think that separatism in Scotland is a nutty idea.


30 posted on 01/22/2014 11:00:06 AM PST by docbnj
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: DesScorp

“Whatever military they do muster will, I guarantee you, be turned towards the English border. England will always be the Bogeyman that the SNP uses to keep the Scots in line. You’ll see posters, propoganda campaigns, etc, about how England is always about to invade. Mark it.”

I wouldn’t go that far. They’re actually going to be expecting the UK to do most of the heavy lifting when it comes to the defence of an ‘independent’ Scotland. The SNP has always come out in force to whine and protest when an Army or RAF base is earmarked for closure north of Hadrian’s wall, that coupled with the fact that they intend to keep the pound, suggests that independence, if was voted for, would be a sham, and Scotland will still be very much dependent on the rest of the UK, except they will have forfeited any right to have a vote or say in any of the policies that will affect them...


31 posted on 01/22/2014 11:00:29 AM PST by sinsofsolarempirefan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: DesScorp

You’re probably right. People, including people in America, tend to romanticize this stuff. I have both Scottish and Welsh ancestry. But today it’s probably more Trainspotting than Braveheart.


32 posted on 01/22/2014 11:01:27 AM PST by crazycatlady
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: DesScorp

...and they booted Winston Churchill after WWII in favor of socialism.


33 posted on 01/22/2014 11:13:55 AM PST by gattaca (The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left. Ecclesiastes10:2)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: crazycatlady

Same here, mostly British Isles in some form or another.


34 posted on 01/22/2014 11:15:37 AM PST by gattaca (The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left. Ecclesiastes10:2)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: crazycatlady

Claim independence then disappear every socialist MP. Oops, they left Scotland for greener pastures. At the bottom of the North Sea.

Then turn towards Israel and India as allies.


35 posted on 01/22/2014 11:22:31 AM PST by EQAndyBuzz ("The GOP fights its own base with far more vigor than it employs in fighting the Dims.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: DesScorp

Prototype of Scotland's new short range missile.

36 posted on 01/22/2014 11:26:40 AM PST by Moltke (Sapere aude!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: DesScorp

and who do they expect to pay for their army?


37 posted on 01/22/2014 11:31:05 AM PST by GeronL (Extra Large Cheesy Over-Stuffed Hobbit)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: warsaw44

Not to my knowledge, but admittedly I do not follow it closely. I will say they are proud of their language, but I do not believe there is anything remotely resembling the level of enthusiasm for secession that exists in Scotland.


38 posted on 01/22/2014 11:37:24 AM PST by ameribbean expat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: sinsofsolarempirefan

Aren’t many Scots also heavily dependent upon mostly English-subsidised welfare?


39 posted on 01/22/2014 11:42:04 AM PST by mrsmel (One Who Can See)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: DesScorp

All they would have to do is lower all of the taxes and make it a cheap vacation spot. Imagine if petrol cost 1.50 Scottish pounds a gallon! Then imagine opening lots of shopping malls, gas stations, restaurants, etc. on the English border. Capitalism works everytime its tried.


40 posted on 01/22/2014 11:49:29 AM PST by gr8eman (How ya doin Bob?...Bitchen!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: DesScorp
Scotland is in for huge military problems if they secede.

Very true unless they do what certain other countries have done re the might of the USA. Just sat back and say "The Americans will protect us". Fortunately NATO has indeed shouldered some of the burden.

I, having worked and travelled in Scotland and treated handsomely in spite of being a "Sassanach",fear another entity. It is the entrenched bureaucrat. From the billions given to say Africa, aid to Haiti and so on, the bureaucrat has "first dibs".

Scotland wanted a new parliament building and rightly so. The initial estimated cost was 40 million pounds (about $60 million dollars. The final cost was 414 million pounds and was started in 1999 and finished 2004.

The Welsh people were mulling over separation at one time from England. In 1966 a huge coal tip overlooked Aberfan. The rain permeated it and hit sloshed down to the town. 144 kids and 5 teachers died. An immense fund was contributed to. The bureaucrats got hold of it. The mine company tapped the fund for 150,000 pounds to clean up the tip. The grieving parents were asked by the bureaucrats; " how close were you to your child?" This to evaluate compensation. I stand to be corrected, but the real victims got but little.

Later a shamefaced Mining Board refunded the money- much later. I know this is a bit of an off topic ramble, but even in Canada, millions are handed out to Indian reserves. There are cases of chiefs taking most of the monies- any attempt to audit is met with cries of "racists". They are now called First Nations.

41 posted on 01/22/2014 11:51:17 AM PST by Peter Libra
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Peter Libra
Correction.

The rain permeated it and it sloshed down to the town.

42 posted on 01/22/2014 11:53:14 AM PST by Peter Libra
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: sinsofsolarempirefan

“They’re actually going to be expecting the UK to do most of the heavy lifting when it comes to the defence of an ‘independent’ Scotland.”

The few pro-independence Scots I know look more to the EU for future defence rather than the UK, but either way, the Scots will be biting off more than they can chew. Without UK $$ proping up their socialist institutions, they’re going to be much poorer than they’ve become accostumed to. And one cannot eat nationalism.


43 posted on 01/22/2014 12:32:56 PM PST by Owl558 (Those who remember George Santayana are doomed to repeat him)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: morphing libertarian
What would happen if they had no army

Gadzooks!

King Edward I would invade Scotland!

44 posted on 01/22/2014 1:05:08 PM PST by Max in Utah (A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: central_va

Looks like they’re really going through with it this time. Good luck to you, Scotland. I hope you’ve learned from British errors, and our errors too.


45 posted on 01/22/2014 1:30:05 PM PST by OldNewYork
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: gattaca

Yes, that’s my heritage, except my grandmother whose father was Luxemburger. But Ive often suspected that they were really German and fudged it because of anti-German sentiment during World War I.


46 posted on 01/22/2014 1:47:50 PM PST by crazycatlady
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Moltke

The Brits might have to beef up Hadrian’s Wall...


47 posted on 01/22/2014 2:11:37 PM PST by PLMerite (Shut the Beyotch Down! Burn, baby, burn!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: morphing libertarian
What would happen if they had no army

For one thing there would be no Edinburgh Military Tattoo. It'd be a shame to lose it.

48 posted on 01/22/2014 3:47:54 PM PST by Lower Deck
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: central_va
Unfortunately for your theory, Scotland is one of the more socialist parts of the UK. Certainly far more left-wing than England.

Oh, and there's no such thing as the "Royal Army".

49 posted on 01/31/2014 12:37:45 AM PST by Vanders9
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: taxcontrol

OMG - no chance.


50 posted on 01/31/2014 12:39:01 AM PST by Vanders9
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-54 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson