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Cockpit of MH17 found 'sawn in half at spot cordoned off by pro-Russian separatists ...
The Daily Mail Online ^ | July 22, 2014 | Tara Brady

Posted on 07/22/2014 2:52:40 PM PDT by Uncle Chip

International monitors, who only recently gained access to the site, discovered the cockpit of the plane apparently cut in half with diesel-powered saws.

Michael Bociurkiw, spokesman for the group of international monitors from the Organize for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), told USA Today:

'The rear part of the aircraft, one of the biggest intact pieces, has definitely been hacked into'.

The cockpit was found on land which was immediately cordoned off by Russian-backed separatists during the two days after the plane was blown out of the sky.

However, both the separatists and Russia have denied any involvement in shooting down the plane.

Yesterday, President Barack Obama called for Russia to stop the separatist from moving parts of the aircraft so the area can be properly investigated.

'The separatists are removing evidence from the crash site,' he said. 'All of which begs the question: What are they trying to hide?'

An Australian air force plane and refrigerated trucks have now arrived in Holland to wait for the MH17 victims but it is now feared only 200 bodies have been recovered.

The Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe also says there are still human remains lying on the crash site.

Jain Tuinder, a Dutch official leading the investigation, said just 200 bodies had arrived in Kharkiv today adding:

'We will not leave until every remain has left this country so we will have to go on and bargain again with the people over there.’

(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: mh17; netherlands; russia
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1 posted on 07/22/2014 2:52:40 PM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: Uncle Chip

Other than being an overt act of war, why can’t NATO conduct an exercise from Ukrainian territory and secure the crash site? Stupid question, I know, so flame away.


2 posted on 07/22/2014 2:56:58 PM PDT by Malichi (!)
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To: Uncle Chip

Russia, the country that only Itchy and Scratchy could love.


3 posted on 07/22/2014 2:57:03 PM PDT by denydenydeny ("World History is not full of good governments, or of good voters either "--P.J. O'Rourke)
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To: denydenydeny
Russia, the country that only Itchy and Scratchy could love.

You forgot Gerard Depardieu.

4 posted on 07/22/2014 2:58:54 PM PDT by Pearls Before Swine
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To: Uncle Chip

The real gem so far was Obama’s press conference when he accused the Russians of a cover up, impeding the investigation and destroying evidence.


5 posted on 07/22/2014 2:59:34 PM PDT by ryan71 (The Partisans)
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To: Uncle Chip
LOL

Dutch forensic team 'impressed' by work at MH17 crash site

I'll bet they were.

6 posted on 07/22/2014 3:00:02 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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Experts have said shrapnel-covered damage on the front of the Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 is consistent with a missile hit.

Photographs show pieces of the Boeing 777 have tiny holes indicating small pieces of shrapnel entered the aircraft externally, it has been reported.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2701920/Does-MH17-wreckage-prove-shot-sky-warhead-Experts-say-damage-consistent-missile-damage.html


7 posted on 07/22/2014 3:01:35 PM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: Malichi

“why can’t NATO conduct an exercise from Ukrainian territory and secure the crash site?”

And do what, exactly??
Standing between two warring forces isn’t really a good idea, especially with a Bear that doesn’t trust you standing at your back.

The Russians are the ones that need to secure the sight, but the west doesn’t trust them, while the Ukrainians would scream bloody murder about the “Russian Invasion”

In a nutshell, no one trusts the US/NATO at this point, and no one trusts Russia. And to think, this is what a majority of Americans voted for...


8 posted on 07/22/2014 3:03:03 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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To: Malichi
Other than being an overt act of war, why can’t NATO conduct an exercise from Ukrainian territory and secure the crash site?

Over act of war against whom? The Ukraine? It was shot down over their territory. Malaysia? It was their plane. But neither are NATO members.

9 posted on 07/22/2014 3:08:03 PM PDT by DoodleDawg
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To: 1rudeboy

The meat of this was actually the last line of the article: they had to “bargain” with these criminals to get those bodies released and now they have to go back and bargain some more.

How many Rolex’s will it cost them to get the rest of the bodies?

And what else are they demanding in return for the bodies of the victims — immunity from prosecution???


10 posted on 07/22/2014 3:08:28 PM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: Malichi

Send a NATO force in thee and you will have 40,000 Russian troops backed by armor in there before you can spit. NATO would do good to get 6,000 there with some Humvees.


11 posted on 07/22/2014 3:09:38 PM PDT by wrench
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To: tcrlaf

In case you haven’t noticed, Russia has been invading for several months now.

Russians have the site, and have been busy removing and destroying evidence.


12 posted on 07/22/2014 3:10:20 PM PDT by KOZ.
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To: tcrlaf

Help Ukraine secure the site that is on their territory.

Since your KGB guy isn’t invading Ukraine, why would he be a threat to an investigation of a passenger plane crash site in another nation?


13 posted on 07/22/2014 3:12:25 PM PDT by ansel12 (LEGAL immigrants, 30 million 1980-2012, continues to remake the nation's electorate for democrats)
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To: tcrlaf
Standing between two warring forces

I see only one warring force there right now -- the warring force that killed 298 people and it is in full control of that area.

14 posted on 07/22/2014 3:12:25 PM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: Uncle Chip
Russia trucking off the 777 parts with missile impact and penetration contact marks. The bodies with SA-11 warhead shrapnel will never be found or recovered. Of course the airline will have a seating manifest and the missing bodies will be the ones all sitting together in the locations the missile or missiles struck and the same locations missing pieces of the jet cut up by the Russians and taken away. Of course the pilots are missing as well since the cockpit was hit by shrapnel, but managed to come down in one piece after the SA-11 buzz-saw cut it off. Surprised the Russians have not claimed the center fuel tank exploded. Worked for Bill Clinton in TWA 800.
15 posted on 07/22/2014 3:13:47 PM PDT by Mat_Helm
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To: Uncle Chip
diesel-powered saws.

How the hell would they know that....and what is that exactly?

16 posted on 07/22/2014 3:14:09 PM PDT by ROCKLOBSTER (Celebrate "Republicans Freed the Slaves" Month.)
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To: wrench

So the 28 nation NATO, has lost the ability to interact with Ukraine because Russia is more powerful than all of us combined now?


17 posted on 07/22/2014 3:14:21 PM PDT by ansel12 (LEGAL immigrants, 30 million 1980-2012, continues to remake the nation's electorate for democrats)
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To: ryan71
The real gem so far was Obama’s press conference when he accused the Russians of a cover up, impeding the investigation and destroying evidence.

What a useless post. Opinions are often welcome, but only if they are insightful and express a cogent and adult reason for the opinion.

18 posted on 07/22/2014 3:15:03 PM PDT by publius911 ( Politicians come and go... but the (union) bureaucracy lives and grows forever.)
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To: Uncle Chip

It was so friggin’ obvious that the Dutch were trying to suck-up to the separatists, in order to get access. Not so obvious to the Borscht Brigade.


19 posted on 07/22/2014 3:17:41 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: Mat_Helm

There are pictures of SAM shrapnel marks on the MH17’s wings in the article at post #7 —

They may have gotten a lot of the evidence but not all of it.


20 posted on 07/22/2014 3:17:55 PM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: 1rudeboy

And now they have to go back and get on their knees again —


21 posted on 07/22/2014 3:19:03 PM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: ROCKLOBSTER

I don’t know — but perhaps they know that it is the only thing that can cut through it in the way that it did.


22 posted on 07/22/2014 3:21:02 PM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: ansel12

“So the 28 nation NATO, has lost the ability to interact with Ukraine because Russia is more powerful than all of us combined now?”

Russia is already on a war footing, their troops are on their borders ready to go. NATO has nothing ready to go. When the US wanted to do their 10,000 troop surge several years ago, it took more than 90 days to put it together.

NATO troops arriving would be read by Russia as an invasion force to aid Ukraine in ethnic cleansing of Russians from eastern Ukraine. That is the excuse Russia would use, and the logistics are all on Russia’s side, it is literally their back yard.


23 posted on 07/22/2014 3:22:42 PM PDT by wrench
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To: Uncle Chip
the cockpit of the plane apparently cut in half with diesel-powered saws

Why do they have to include the weasel words like "apparently" in these reports. Either it was or it wasn't. Don't speculate.

24 posted on 07/22/2014 3:23:04 PM PDT by McGruff (If you tell a lie often enough the weak minded will accept it to be truth.)
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To: McGruff
Why do they have to include the weasel words like "apparently" in these reports

because they are dealing with Russians who do their deadly deed when no one is watching and then deny that it ever happened.

25 posted on 07/22/2014 3:25:51 PM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: wrench

NATO and other free nations have been tightening up their ability to defend themselves again since you guys started reassembling the evil empire.

As far as being so afraid of Russia that we are helpless today, no thanks, Putin is a paper tiger.


26 posted on 07/22/2014 3:28:02 PM PDT by ansel12 (LEGAL immigrants, 30 million 1980-2012, continues to remake the nation's electorate for democrats)
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To: Uncle Chip

Our pro-Russia/KGB posters seem to bounce between, “Russia isn’t doing anything, it is all in your head”, to “don’t interfere or we will take you out and launch WWIII and nuclear annihilation”


27 posted on 07/22/2014 3:28:32 PM PDT by ansel12 (LEGAL immigrants, 30 million 1980-2012, continues to remake the nation's electorate for democrats)
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To: Uncle Chip

So, your tunnel vision doesn’t allow you to see the other one, indiscriminately shelling cities?

You really should get your eyes checked. I could recommend a good Opthamoligist, if you’d like.


28 posted on 07/22/2014 3:31:03 PM PDT by tcrlaf (Q)
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To: ansel12

Please show me where NATO has troops assembled, or even in garrison. Hint: they don;t.

Also many here think Ukraine is part of NATO, they aren’t.

Look to the UN to carry your water if you want to start a fight, that will get you real far also.


29 posted on 07/22/2014 3:31:17 PM PDT by wrench
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To: Uncle Chip

You’d have to be some bad-ass dude to hold up and operate a diesel cut-off saw. Imagine pulling on the starter rope.

You could say; “It takes a big jerk to start it.”


30 posted on 07/22/2014 3:31:28 PM PDT by ROCKLOBSTER (Celebrate "Republicans Freed the Slaves" Month.)
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To: wrench

You mean the U.S. and the other NATO nations don’t have anybody in NATO anymore, they all went home, they can’t even secure a crash site in a friendly nation today?

I don’t know what kind of silliness you are trying to promote, but arguing that Russia so powerful that it has total control over European affairs, is silly, your man is not the 800 pound gorilla in charge of Europe.

This is an interesting technique, trying to intimidate the world like you are.


31 posted on 07/22/2014 3:36:45 PM PDT by ansel12 (LEGAL immigrants, 30 million 1980-2012, continues to remake the nation's electorate for democrats)
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To: Uncle Chip

Yes, hear is another picture which is a part of the port side cockpit window faring showing shrapnel hits.

32 posted on 07/22/2014 3:40:38 PM PDT by Mat_Helm
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To: KOZ.

“Russians have the site, and have been busy removing and destroying evidence.”

Seems to me there is very little evidence to destroy. We already know what took the plane down, Nothing on the site is going to tell us anything about that...

As for who pushed the button, It’s certainly not going to tell us that.


33 posted on 07/22/2014 3:41:52 PM PDT by babygene ( .)
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To: Uncle Chip

Yes, hear is another picture which is a part of the port side cockpit window faring showing shrapnel hits.

34 posted on 07/22/2014 3:42:06 PM PDT by Mat_Helm
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To: ansel12

NATO has NO jurisdiction. They would legally be considered invaders.

As I said, this is Russia’s back yard, less than 40 miles from their border. They will not permit a hostile combat force to enter the disputed area.


35 posted on 07/22/2014 3:47:18 PM PDT by wrench
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To: babygene

Well, for starters, one could determine whether it was an air-to-air missile versus ground-to-air. Which, in turn would make the Russians shut up about some of their conspiracy theories.


36 posted on 07/22/2014 3:48:54 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: wrench

It is Ukraine’s yard, if they need help from the free world to investigate a crash site, then so be it.

NATO is not the problem here, Russia is.


37 posted on 07/22/2014 3:50:49 PM PDT by ansel12 (LEGAL immigrants, 30 million 1980-2012, continues to remake the nation's electorate for democrats)
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To: Uncle Chip
Somebody just posted this on Twitter.


38 posted on 07/22/2014 3:56:25 PM PDT by McGruff (If you tell a lie often enough the weak minded will accept it to be truth.)
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To: Mat_Helm

Furthermore the Dutch were told by the Russian thugs that there were 282 bodies sealed in those railcars and when they opened them up there were only 200.


39 posted on 07/22/2014 3:56:48 PM PDT by Uncle Chip
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To: Malichi
Other than being an overt act of war, why can’t NATO conduct an exercise from Ukrainian territory and secure the crash site? Stupid question, I know, so flame away.

No sort of military action of any sort is useful in this situation. But there is a non-military response that would have immediate and long lasting positive effects.

This incident affects every airline and every country which travels worldwide; Also, obviously, nationals of every country who travel regularly or even occasionally. The threat is universal.

Both the International Airlines Associations, and the International Pilots Union (and all national FAA equivalents,) should issue the following declaration :

a) Civil and Commercial flights will be suspended to and from any country which does not allow immediate access (no minimum time restriction) to an accident scene, by the Airline(s) involved, and one other competent accident investigation team, each, of their choosing.

b) Further, The entire accident scene shall be secured and no disturbance will be allowed of its debris, remains of victims, the victims' property, instruments, all flight recorders.

Further, this sanction shall extend to all flights of all airlines whose previous stop are anywhere within the accident site country, or whose flight will continue to the accident site country.
No interference, physical, political or military will be allowed with accident investigators. The responsible country is the ultimate party responsible for preventing violations of the rules above.

If there are violations of rules a)or b) the sanction to and from the responsible country will be in force until the accident investigation is satisfactorily concluded.

The beauty of this approach, is that no military action whatsoever needs to be contemplated, unless the responsible country requests it.

In areas of ongoing non-conventional warfare, military aid shall not be allowed from any "sponsor" of either side of the ongoing insurrection, civil war, etc.

Food for thought.
I didn't feel it necessary to mention the uselessness of allowing the U.N. to have any role in airline accident investigations.

40 posted on 07/22/2014 3:57:45 PM PDT by publius911 ( Politicians come and go... but the (union) bureaucracy lives and grows forever.)
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To: 1rudeboy

“Well, for starters, one could determine whether it was an air-to-air missile versus ground-to-air. Which, in turn would make the Russians shut up about some of their conspiracy theories.”

We already know it was a ground to air missile. The Ukraine had them as well as the separatists.

Apparently Ukraine military jets escorted the airliner until 3 minutes before the shoot down. Don’t you find that odd? Could this perhaps trick the separatists into thinking it was a military aircraft? None of this evidence is going to come from the crash site.

At some point, as with any investigation, we have to ask who had the motive. Who would most likely gain from this?

Would it be the Ukraine, NATO, Russia or the separatists? I don’t trust any of them, but you know who I trust the least? You got it... Obama.


41 posted on 07/22/2014 4:05:19 PM PDT by babygene ( .)
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To: McGruff
Why do they have to include the weasel words like "apparently" in these reports. Either it was or it wasn't. Don't speculate.

Since neither the saw nor the pieces involved are any longer on site, informed speculation is the only recourse.

Are you suggesting the services of psychics? At this point speculation is all there is. Laboratory tests to be more specific are a long ways off.

42 posted on 07/22/2014 4:06:43 PM PDT by publius911 ( Politicians come and go... but the (union) bureaucracy lives and grows forever.)
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To: ansel12
Our pro-Russia/KGB posters seem to bounce between, “Russia isn’t doing anything, it is all in your head”, to “don’t interfere or we will take you out and launch WWIII and nuclear annihilation”

I also notice that the Freeper class of 2005 + or -1 is heavily represented.

43 posted on 07/22/2014 4:09:30 PM PDT by publius911 ( Politicians come and go... but the (union) bureaucracy lives and grows forever.)
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To: Mat_Helm
Yes, hear is another picture which is a part of the port side cockpit window faring showing shrapnel hits.

Smell, too...

44 posted on 07/22/2014 4:12:08 PM PDT by publius911 ( Politicians come and go... but the (union) bureaucracy lives and grows forever.)
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To: babygene
Whoa, cowboy. One of the central elements of the Russian propaganda campaign is that Ukraine shot down this jet. So, you have either:

1. Ukraine tricking the separatists,
2. Ukraine doing the shooting, or
3. the separatists doing the shooting.

The rest of your comment is opinion cloaked as fact. And the question, "who gains?" is completely irrelevant.
45 posted on 07/22/2014 4:14:01 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: ROCKLOBSTER
You’d have to be some bad-ass dude to hold up and operate a diesel cut-off saw. Imagine pulling on the starter rope.

You can start some "diesel" engines with just one finger.

A Carbureted compression ignition model engine, popularly known as a Model diesel engine, is a simple compression ignition engine made for model propulsion, usually model aircraft but also model boats.

Miniature two-stroke diesel engine

46 posted on 07/22/2014 4:16:37 PM PDT by BwanaNdege ( "For those who have fought for it, Life bears a savor the protected will never know")
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To: publius911

Their sign up dates seem pretty scattered to me and include a number of the 98/99 group, one thing that I have noticed about some of them, is that some don’t post frequently, or have posting gaps.


47 posted on 07/22/2014 4:17:00 PM PDT by ansel12 (LEGAL immigrants, 30 million 1980-2012, continues to remake the nation's electorate for democrats)
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To: babygene
Apparently Ukraine military jets escorted the airliner until 3 minutes before the shoot down.

What is the source of this?
A teenager on twitter?
The Russians in eastern Ukraine pretending to be Ukranians and playing civil war?
What?

48 posted on 07/22/2014 4:17:40 PM PDT by publius911 ( Politicians come and go... but the (union) bureaucracy lives and grows forever.)
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To: 1rudeboy

“And the question, “who gains?” is completely irrelevant.”

The motive is never irrelevant in an investigation. Tell that to any criminal investigator and they will laugh in your face. It is and has always been the #1 thing.


49 posted on 07/22/2014 4:25:21 PM PDT by babygene ( .)
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To: babygene
Who gains in all this

You do know that one of the demands from the Putin backed rebels in all of this that the Ukrainians agree to the independence of Donetsk before the Dutch et al can get all their dead back.

Putin is using the dead as bargaining chips to get what the his rebels can't win on the battlefield.

Putin and his rebels gained in all of this -- they got bargaining chips to fall from the sky at the cost of only one SAM.

50 posted on 07/22/2014 4:27:36 PM PDT by Uncle Chip
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