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King Richard III's Final Moments Were Quick & Brutal
Yahoo! News ^ | September 17, 2014 | Stephanie Pappas

Posted on 09/17/2014 12:39:21 PM PDT by Scoutmaster

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To: miss marmelstein

Hey, I’m not going to wade into the “Richard was painted a villain by history” thing. People feel too strongly about it.

What I said was that he had a severe scoliosis, and that such things were very difficult to hide, with the level of court intrigue. It was a vicious time and at that level real schemers use everything they can to do all the damage they can - and no one will say the Tudors weren’t schemers. Heck, they killed him, didn’t they? Now what people thought of him at the time we’ll probably really never know.


81 posted on 09/17/2014 7:52:46 PM PDT by I still care (I miss my friends, bagels, and the NYC skyline - but not the taxes. I love the South.)
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To: Scoutmaster; Ramius; 300winmag; IrishCatholic; lookout88; Wpin; spetznaz; Smokin' Joe; ...

Sword Ping! Perhaps a little tardy but better late than never. Interesting observations about the injuries to Richard III.


82 posted on 09/17/2014 8:00:54 PM PDT by Ramius (Personally, I give us one chance in three. More tea anyone?)
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To: Ramius

So the story goes that Richard’s horse became bogged down in mud, so he dismounted. He was fully armored but at some point had lost (or removed) his helmet.

Those “shaving” or glancing wounds to the head almost have to be combat injuries sustained while fighting some one (or two, or...) probably armed with a longsword. Somebody almost got him with a zwerchhau, sounds like. Maybe even a couple more hits in addition. Seems that at some point he knew he was beaten. Perhaps disarmed. Knelt down and took the final blow with his head bowed. That weapon they say may have been a sword but I would submit that then it would have been more likely to decapitate him. Which it didn’t. A more likely implement would be something like a war hammer, or some such tool with a spike or point on the back. Short handle for use up close. Like a halberd head, but a halberd would be too long and unwieldy to do a precision execution.


83 posted on 09/17/2014 8:23:07 PM PDT by Ramius (Personally, I give us one chance in three. More tea anyone?)
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To: Scoutmaster

Bump....


84 posted on 09/17/2014 9:18:49 PM PDT by Intolerant in NJ
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To: Ramius
thanks,for the ping-a-ling, ramius. 🔪
read earlier,didn't post..interrupted.

85 posted on 09/17/2014 9:36:47 PM PDT by skinkinthegrass (The end move in politics in always to pick up a weapon...eh? "Bathhouse" 0'Mullah? d8^)
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To: I still care

The only people who would have known about his scoliosis were his close personal attendants and family. The only descriptions of him describe him as short and thin. No one mentions any raised shoulder - not even the rumor-mongering spies of King Louis and they would have been the first to push the “deformed” line. Thomas More described him as ugly and with a withered arm - we now know the withered arm was a lie. BTW, his scoliosis is adolescent on-set - developed as a young page and squire. I’m told that it had nothing to do with rigorous physical training but I find that hard to believe.

Don’t feel run off because some people get out of control.


86 posted on 09/18/2014 4:17:04 AM PDT by miss marmelstein (Richard III: Loyalty Binds Me)
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To: Ramius

I think all the weapons have been identified by experts who looked at the remains - the rondel being, to my mind, the worst. I believe he was stunned and fell to his knees - we know that a front tooth was loosened and lost at this period - probably from the terrible blows to the head.


87 posted on 09/18/2014 4:22:46 AM PDT by miss marmelstein (Richard III: Loyalty Binds Me)
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To: Scoutmaster

“My kingdom for a horse!”


88 posted on 09/18/2014 4:26:33 AM PDT by SMARTY ("When you blame others, you give up your power to change." Robert Anthony)
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To: miss marmelstein

So we know it was adolescent onset? That is interesting. I did not know that. I am no expert on Richard. I do study on the history of science and medicine of ancient and medieval times, that is one of my interests, and I do know a bit about scoliosis. The cause of scoliosis nowadays is still hotly debated. By the way, if you are interested, here is a better modern article about scoliosis that shows a few pictures of what it looks like in the undressed individual, and for maybe others that may be following the thread. Although I am sure Richard was not seen undressed by many and probably took care not to be by any but his intimates.

http://umm.edu/health/medical/reports/articles/scoliosis

It is said not to have anything to do with physical activity but I can tell you it can be very painful - just think of living with your spine rotated - yes, you do get “used to it” to some degree, but it’s still not comfortable. Massage helps, and believe it or not moderate physical activity because it keeps things moving, but if he was as active as you say, it sounds like maybe he had an injury that set him up for this.


89 posted on 09/18/2014 7:15:32 AM PDT by I still care (I miss my friends, bagels, and the NYC skyline - but not the taxes. I love the South.)
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To: I still care

Do you have scoliosis? I’ve run across many people today who have it. It seems to bother some people and not others. Of course, we’ll never know what Richard the Third felt - he left no notes about it (unless destroyed by the Tudors!)

I do know that medieval archers from the Towton battlefield and skeletons of archers from one of Henry the 8th’s sunken battleships, reveals many twisted spines. It’s hard to believe the heavy bows did not contribute some stress on spines. Richard was not a professional archer, of course, but was put through his paces as a young knight.


90 posted on 09/18/2014 7:23:41 AM PDT by miss marmelstein (Richard III: Loyalty Binds Me)
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To: miss marmelstein
Well defended!

From one Ricardian to another :)

91 posted on 09/18/2014 7:48:03 AM PDT by arbee4bush (My Dad, My Hero. Love You Dad!!)
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To: arbee4bush

Thank you! I knew there must be another Ricardian out there in the ether!


92 posted on 09/18/2014 7:49:53 AM PDT by miss marmelstein (Richard III: Loyalty Binds Me)
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To: Scoutmaster

Very interesting as I am currently reading a book on the Tudor Dynasty, including its founding.


93 posted on 09/18/2014 8:03:08 AM PDT by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
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To: NFHale

Once the MontyPython Virus is loaded, there is no escape. :)


94 posted on 09/18/2014 12:24:31 PM PDT by moose07 (the truth will out ,one day. Barry is counter revolutionary ,Denounce him!)
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To: miss marmelstein

Yes, but not severely. It causes me a lot of spasm and is one reason I got into the profession.


95 posted on 09/18/2014 3:26:42 PM PDT by I still care (I miss my friends, bagels, and the NYC skyline - but not the taxes. I love the South.)
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