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Posted on 01/13/2015 10:14:04 AM PST by afraidfortherepublic
Indeed.
>>I don’t have as much animosity for the actual shooters. They were just doing their job, though admittedly they should have refused the orders they were given.
Police states can’t exist if the police refuse to “just follow orders”. Lon Horiuchi is a murderer who is no different than a concentration camp guard. The actual shooters are the actual killers.
As a retired police officer this episode is extremely troubling to me on many levels. Sorry but cubicle dwelling bureaucrats should not be issued live ammunition and have police powers.
Also, I cannot imagine performing a dynamic entry in serving a warrant for evidence in an old student loan fraud case. The circumstances here are horrifying at a tactical and ethical level. The fact that the state STUDENT LOAN agency has the capability of launching such a screwed up operation, let alone pronouncing these tactics appropriate, is a moment of crystalline clarity that the tyranny is already here. The governor and legislature should be made to pay at the polls for allowing it to continue.
This case (and I’m sure there are others like it) should be Page 1 above-the-fold headlines right up until the polls close next Election Day, and beyond. Sadly, I doubt it will be. I’m not a big one for proclaiming Second Amendment remedies. It should be unnecessary as long as we have a functioning First Amendment. But where will the people go next for redress when the press has been totally co-opted into the tyranny?
When the violence starts it will be due in no small part to a press that forgot to defend liberty and decided to cheerlead for oppression.
A sniper ordered to take out a target seldom has the information needed to determine if it is right and proper to take out that target. That’s not his job.
His job is to hit the target. He is essentially a weapon, with the responsibility for its proper use rightly going to the guy who decides to authorize its use. A human drone, if you will.
Which is as it should be. In an emergency hostage situation, do we really want a sniper refusing to take a shot while he reviews evidence to decide whether it is justified or not? That’s not his job. Any more than it’s the job of a Marine squad to decide whether they ought to follow through on their orders to attack a building or not.
Admittedly, the longterm standoff at RR meant that the shooters had every opportunity to figure out what was going on and refuse to participate, which complicates the issue more than usual. Which is what they should have done. My understanding is that some of the guys at the standoff decided amongst themselves to revert to “normal” ROEs.
But to my mind the PRIMARY responsibility belongs to whoever decided to target the Weavers, not the shooters. Concentrating on the shooters I think lets him/her off the hook.
YMMV
The FBI ROE that were operative at Ruby Ridge were blatantly unconstitutional. Criminal, actually, and every man there should have known it.
Had a state or local agency implemented ROE like that the FBI would have prosecuted them criminally and would have been right to do so.
The unintended consequences of this kind of policy are horrible. Why do VA employees treat Veterans so bad? Because there are armed guards at the VA facilities. This breeds the attitude in the VA employees that they have bodyguards and can do whatever they want to Veterans.
Freeper Travis McGee wrote a book that parallels this outrage.
Seems like the Federal bureaucracy is stranger than fiction.
I think that what the SS Nazi said at the trail after WWII. When it all turns to shit very few of these American SS will even get the chance to say I was only following orders. All men stand trial if not before the law than before the Father of us all.
As an retired federal agent I completely agree. If you are a regulatory agency like the USDA, EPA, FCC the Department of Education or whatever and you need a high risk warrant served, call the local PD or SO and have them serve it. That's the way it was done historically. There are highly trained people in all the departments mentioned above but they are not highly trained in law enforcement.
What this is really about is not about the glamour aspect of carrying a gun as the writer suggest. Its about getting 6-C retirement coverage and better overtime compensation as a federal LEO.
Only federal employees who's primary and full time responsibility is enforcing the law should be armed.
>>In an emergency hostage situation, do we really want a sniper refusing to take a shot while he reviews evidence to decide whether it is justified or not?
This was NOT an emergency hostage situation. There were no hostages at all. Horiuchi is a murderer.
But, I’m not letting anyone off the hook. Give me a name for the person who said, “Take that shot.” There were documents stating that Vicki Weaver was the glue that held the family together and that she should be isolated from Randy. Horiuchi and some nameless field commander decided that murdering her was the best way to isolate her.
Cops should be held to higher standard than private citizens, just as an airline pilot is held to a higher standard of care than a fighter pilot.
I have never seen any evidence that Vicky was targeted. May be the case, but I haven’t seen it.
Specifically, she was behind the door and so Horiuchi could not have intentionally targeted her.
BTW, intentionally targeting her would have been in violation of even their appalling ROE.
>>I have never seen any evidence that Vicky was targeted. May be the case, but I haven’t seen it.
>>Specifically, she was behind the door and so Horiuchi could not have intentionally targeted her.
>>BTW, intentionally targeting her would have been in violation of even their appalling ROE.
there was a document written by an FBI profiler.
It was a screen door.
The Department of EDUCATION!
This is absolutely frightening!
Using the "Follow-The-Money" rule, I feel that you have made clear the true motivating factor for up-arming all these alphabet-soup agencies.
Nut-job Conspiracy Theory Ping!
To get onto The Nut-job Conspiracy Theory Ping List you must threaten to report me to the Mods if I don't add you to the list...
We're armed so you don't have to be... 
“We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we’ve set. We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded.” Barack Hussein Obama, 7/2/2008They don’t call it a Civil Defense force, that would imply we need (or perhaps that we deserve) defense. The official name is National Civilian Community Corps.
I think of it as the NatCCC, or more simply, as the NatCs...
Anyone seen the film Brazil?
Again more US citizens MURDERED by an alphabet of tyranny.
Nope. I've seen pictures. It was a solid door with 4 panes of glass in the upper portion with curtains over them. The shot went thru one of the panes and hit Vicki.
Even without curtains, seeing through glass into a darker building is at best problematic. Which is of course a good reason for not firing a shot into such a situation, particularly when there are children in there.
As stated, I have still seen nothing resembling evidence that Vicky was intentionally targeted.
Vicki was by my personal standards a nut. But she didn't deserve to be shot and killed, intentionally or accidentally.
"Accidentally" is of course not exactly the right word. The shot was fired on purpose. It just apparently hit something the shooter didn't intend to hit.
One of the people on the scene and in charge, I have read, is now Sheriff of San Diego.
“More than 22 years have elapsed since the FBI standoff at Randy Weaver’s cabin in Ruby Ridge. At the time, Gore served as the bureau chief in Seattle, the lead office in charge of the standoff. Weaver, a white separatist facing gun charges, was holed up in the cabin along with his wife Vicki, infant daughter, and a man named Kevin Harrison.”
(snip)
Gore denied that he gave the shooter the green light. He refused to testify at a congressional hearing.
http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2014/oct/29/ticker-remember-ruby-ridge-sheriff-gore/#
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