Posted on 03/07/2015 11:30:33 AM PST by Repulican Donkey
That as the admission of States by Congress under the constitution was an act of legislation, and in the nature of a contract or compact between the States admitted and the others admitting, why should not this contract or compact be regarded as of like character with all other civil contracts liable to be rescinded by mutual agreement of both parties? The seceding States have rescinded it on their part, they have resumed their sovereignty. Why cannot the whole question be settled, if the north desire peace, simply by the Congress, in both branches, with the concurrence of the President, giving their consent to the separation, and a recognition of our independence?
Missed all the previous paragraphs mentioning slavery I take it.
“I cannot find an Article XIII to the Constitution of the United States of America. Are you claiming one?”
No, of course not.
“Because what you are quoting is the Articles of Confederation of the 13 original British colonies of America, formed when they were in rebellion against the Kingdom of Great Britain and had declared their independence.”
“Republican Donkey wrote about, “a union it entered freely,” and the original States established the precedent in law by entering into the a “union it entered freely” with the approval and adoption of the Articles of Confederation of the United States of America.
“My understanding is that the Constitution of the United States superseded the Articles of Confederation. Is that wrong?”
The same Article XIII of the Articles of Confederation provided:
[QUOTE]
Article XIII. Every State shall abide by the determination of the united States in congress assembled, on all questions which by this confederation are submitted to them. And the Articles of this confederation shall be inviolably observed by every State, and the union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a congress of the united States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State.
[UNQUOTE]
In compliance with Article XIII of the Articles of Confederation, the Constitution of the United States of America was also adopted by each State of the perpetual union in strict compliance with the provision mandating “nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a congress of the united States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State.” The Constitution of the United States explicitly states in the Preamble: “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
Nowhere in the Constitution of the United States of America does it state the constitution of a “less perfect union” than the “union shall be perpetual” provision of the Articles of Confederation being altered by the Constitution of the United States. The Articles of Confederation of the United States of America stated: “Article I. The Stile of this Confederacy shall be “The United States of America.”
Nowhere in the Constitution of the United States of America did any of the articles repeal or alter the Articles of Confederation and its Article I provision saying The Stile of this Confederacy shall be “The United States of America.”
Nowhere in the Constitution of the United States of America did any of the articles repeal or alter the legal precedents of the Declaration of Independence or the Treaty of Paris 1783 which established the former British colonies as independent states free to enter into the Articles of Confederation as a perpetual union with the stile of the United States of America.
Nowhere in the Constitution of the United States of America is there an article which abolishes or dissolved the United States of America established by the Articles of Confederation of the United States of America. On the contrary, the Congress and the Preamble of the Constitution of the United States of America are explicit in stating its purpose is to “form a more perfect Union” after already establishing “the union shall be perpetual” as legal precedent with the Articles of Confederation of the United States of America.
The Constitution of the United States of America stated: “Article. VII. The Ratification of the Conventions of nine States, shall be sufficient for the Establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the Same.” There was a period of time where some of the States in the perpetual union of the United States of America chose not to ratify the Constitution of the United States after nine other States had ratified and brought forth “the Establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the Same.” As evidenced by history, the Articles of Confederation of the United States of America remained very much in effect after the Establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the Same.”
Wrong, I read the whole thing. He summarized and concluded his remarks with the core issue of the day for the secessionists, state sovereignty; and the core issue for the central government supremacy crowd, domination and control.
Just as I stated in my earlier post.
You chose the source to link to, it’s yours to defend or reject.
Alexander H. Stephens, Corner Stone” Speech, ninth paragraph. For the south slavery was the core issue that led to their insurrection.
That is a pack of lies.
“First, he was not a ‘big figure in the KKK’.”
On the contrary, former CSA Brigadier General George Washington Gordon recruited former CSA Lieutenant General Nathan Bedford Forrest into the Ku Klux Klan precisely because he had the influence necessary to command a unit of the Ku Klux Klan. Forrest subsequently also had sufficient authority within the Ku Klux Klan to later dissolve his Klan unit when he determined the Klan’s attacks upon the black community was inconsistent with his aims.
“Yes, he was a member. The KKK was formed to fight Carpetbaggers, not Blacks.”
That is also a false statement, because many other people joined the Ku Klux Klan specifically to target Blacks regardless of any additional purposes others such as Nathan Bedford Forrest had in mind.
“And before we go there, the UNION ARMY exonerated him of responsibility for the Fort Pillow massacre based on eye witness testimony from UNION soldiers.”
There is another outrageous set of lies. before the Battle of Fort Pillow, Nathan Bedford Forrest was leading an attack against the U.S. Army and civilians in Paducah, Kentucky when he demanded the unconditional surrender of the U.S. Army command with the threat, “if I have to storm your works, you may expect no quarter....” Forrest’s use of the term “expect no quarter” means he threatened to refuse the surrender of the individual soldiers and would order their massacre instead. At the Battle of Fort Pillow Forrest again threatened the massacre of the defenders, “Forrest sent a note demanding surrender: “I demand the unconditional surrender of the entire garrison,...Should my demand be refused, I cannot be responsible for the fate of your command.” Later, one of Forrest’s own men witnessed Forrest’s role in ordering the massacre:
Achilles Clark, a soldier with the 20th Tennessee cavalry, wrote to his sister immediately after the battle: “The slaughter was awful. Words cannot describe the scene. The poor, deluded, negroes would run up to our men, fall upon their knees, and with uplifted hands scream for mercy but they were ordered to their feet and then shot down. I, with several others, tried to stop the butchery, and at one time had partially succeeded, but General Forrest ordered them shot down like dogs and the carnage continued. Finally our men became sick of blood and the firing ceased.”[35] (Wikipedia)
Later at the Battle of the Crater, Confederate commanders and their command repeated the massacres of Black Union soldiers and their White officers.
“That as the admission of States by Congress under the constitution was an act of legislation, and in the nature of a contract or compact between the States admitted and the others admitting, why should not this contract or compact be regarded as of like character with all other civil contracts liable to be rescinded by mutual agreement of both parties?”
Some States such as Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia were founding members of the United States of America via the acts of the Continental Congress, the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation of the United States of America, and the acts of the Congress before the Constitution of the United States of America came into existence. These States agreed to be bound by Article XIII of the Articles of Confederation of the United States of America which stated:
Article XIII. Every State shall abide by the determination of the united States in congress assembled, on all questions which by this confederation are submitted to them. And the Articles of this confederation shall be inviolably observed by every State, and the union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a congress of the united States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State.
Nothing in the Articles of Confederation of the United States of America or in the Constitution of the United States of America has repealed the obligation of the founding States nor the States subsequently admitted to the union to “abide by the determination...the union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a congress of the united States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State.”
The States entered into “a contract or compact between the States” which explicitly provided that “Every State shall abide by the determination of the united States in congress assembled, on all questions which by this confederation are submitted to them...shall be inviolably observed by every State, and the union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a congress of the united States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State.” The Constitution of the United States of America also added in the Preamble, “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union...do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.” A variety of articles of the Constitution of the United States of America also denied member States the Power to secede from the perpetual union unless “agreed to in a congress of the united States.” In particular:
Article. VI.
All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
“The seceding States have rescinded it on their part, they have resumed their sovereignty.”
The “seceding States” did not have the Power to “rescind” their accessions to the perpetual union of the United States of America “unless such alteration be agreed to in a congress of the united States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State.”
“Why cannot the whole question be settled, if the north desire peace, simply by the Congress, in both branches, with the concurrence of the President, giving their consent to the separation, and a recognition of our independence?”
Because the purported secessions of the States constituted unconstitutional usurpations of the Articles of Confederation of the United States of America, the Constitution of the United States of America, and the constitutions of the several States of the United States of America, including in particular the Constitution of the United States of America, Article IV:
Section. 3.
New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.
The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.
Section. 4.
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence.
Rather than seek and secure the constitutional and lawful consent of the Congress and each of the States for a secession of each State, the States in rebellion engaged in an illegal and immoral armed rebellion and attempted assassination of the president Elect before he could be inaugurated as President of the United States of America.
Well in that case the colonists were the bad guys in the fight against Britain. After all, one of their complains against England in the Declaration of Independence was that Britain was encouraging slave insurrections. And when the British troops marched on the colonies they offered freedom to any slaves who joined their side and fought with them. All that rot about liberty and independence that the colonists were talking about was really just about slavery.
Exactly. The South has always been the center of conservatism in America, while the North has always been the liberal progressive hub.
The United states under the constitution was not founded as a perpetual union. It was the union under the articles of confederation that was styled as perpetual, but that union was dissolved. The delegates, whose job was to amend the articles, created an entire new constitution, which many of the states then proceeded to join by seceding from the old union. The old union and the new one were not the same, and coexisted simultaneously for some years, as not all the states joined the new union at once (several waited several years before joining and remained during that time under the laws of the confederation). The new union was not styled as perpetual. After all they had styled the last one as perpetual and it proved to not be so, so why make the same mistake again?
Where do you get these notions?! Of course it was. Do you believe that because the term "perpetual union" was supplanted by "a more perfect union"?
The delegates, whose job was to amend the articles, created an entire new constitution, which many of the states then proceeded to join by seceding from the old union.
One of the features that differentiated the ratification of the Constitution from the AOC was that it called for state delegating committees, not state legislatures to ratify. It is one of the reasons why it took the more reluctant states to ratify. There was no process of secession from the AOC - merely agreement (ratification) of the new charter under the Constitution.
The old union and the new one were not the same, and coexisted simultaneously for some years, as not all the states joined the new union at once (several waited several years before joining and remained during that time under the laws of the confederation).
There was a period where the two governments existed side by side, but for only 10 months - the length of time for the first nine states to ratify the Constitution. At that point the AOC was superseded by the Constitution and the remaining states were in a state of limbo. Rhode Island, the last state to ratify, did so partly because they feared treatment as a hostile foreign government.
The new union was not styled as perpetual.
Where do you get that nonsense?
You have reiterated another pack of juvenile lies.
“The United states under the constitution was not founded as a perpetual union.”
The United States was founded by the Continental Congress in 1776 with its adoption of the Declaration of Independence by the Delegates of the States acting in congress. The Declaration of Independence has not yet been repealed, rescinded, or otherwise invalidated as the current law of the United States of America. The United States of America “was not founded” by the ratification of the Constitution of the United States of America.
The Articles of Confederation of the United States of America stated: Article XIII. Every State shall abide by the determination of the united States in congress assembled, on all questions which by this confederation are submitted to them. And the Articles of this confederation shall be inviolably observed by every State, and the union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a congress of the united States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State. These Articles of Confederation were subsequently altered in part by “the legislatures of every State” and were “agreed to in a congress of the united States” with their adoption of the Constitution of the United States of America. The Preamble of the Constitution of the United States of America reaffirmed the perpetual union of the States: “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.” Furthermore, Article VI of the Constitution of the United States of America confirmed the unaltered Articles of Confederation of the United States of America continued in force of law after the adoption of the Constitution of the United States of America said:
Article. VI.
All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
The Articles of Confederation of the United States of America are themselves included among the “Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.” To this very day the Articles of Confederation remain one of several parts of the fundamental law of the United States of America and one part of the legal foundation upon which all statutes and decisions are to be grounded in U.S. law.
“It was the union under the articles of confederation that was styled as perpetual, but that union was dissolved. The delegates, whose job was to amend the articles, created an entire new constitution, which many of the states then proceeded to join by seceding from the old union. The old union and the new one were not the same, and coexisted simultaneously for some years, as not all the states joined the new union at once (several waited several years before joining and remained during that time under the laws of the confederation). The new union was not styled as perpetual. After all they had styled the last one as perpetual and it proved to not be so, so why make the same mistake again?”
Those remarks are a repetition of a pack of falsehoods and outright lies, because the Articles of Confederation remain in effect in U.S. law today insofar as the articles have not been altered by subsequent acts of congress.
Your ignorance is an full display. Please do keep flaunting it.
L
In a limited sense I suppose one could consider the colonial Revolutionaries to be “the bad guys” because they were rebelling against authority, but their cause - the struggle against tyranny - was just and righteous even if imperfect. The same cannot be said of the southern insurrectionists.
The states that remained for several years under the old articles after the rest had left that government (leaving an old government system to create a new one is known as secession) were not in a state of "limbo". They simply remained under the old articles. You are trying to make the two unions seem like they were really one in the same but they cannot be since they coexisted.
“You are trying to make the two unions seem like they were really one in the same but they cannot be since they coexisted.”
The Articles of Confederation of the United States of America and the Constitution of the United States of America both remain in effect as part of U.S. law today.
Those who were present at his brief 1875 address seemed appreciative.
It’s difficult to accept from you that they were anything but just a bunch of unschooled negroes.
I’m not sure where you get the nonsense that it WAS styled as perpetual. Where in the Constitution does it say perpetual?
1. Preamble of the Constitution of the United States of America: We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union....
2. Constitution of the United States of America, Article. VI:
All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
3. The Articles of Confederation of the United States of America, Article XIII: Article XIII. Every State shall abide by the determination of the united States in congress assembled, on all questions which by this confederation are submitted to them. And the Articles of this confederation shall be inviolably observed by every State, and the union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a congress of the united States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State.
The Founders, the founding documents, the Supreme Court, and common sense for starters. Do you really seriously believe that they went through all that trouble in order to create a transitory or perishable union? From Texas v. White:
By [the Articles of Confederation], the Union was solemnly declared to "be perpetual." And when these Articles were found to be inadequate to the exigencies of the country, the Constitution was ordained "to form a more perfect Union." It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these words. What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not?It should be self-evident.
And those solid Conservatives (both Christian and Jews) who populate the South are the descendents of those "evil scum slave-holding rebels" that FReeper crim alluded to.
So, crim, if those "rebels" were so dastardly, just how did their offspring become the pro-God, pro-life, pro-gun, anti-sodomy people that form the backbone of America? And if the north was so righteous, why has that region become this nation's bastion of liberalism?
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