"My God, My God, Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me?"

ligonier.org The Teaching Fellowship of Calvinist R.C. Sproul ^ | 3/30/15 | Joel Beeke

[Diamond]

I noticed that for some reason you declined to answer kosciusko51's question regarding how many gods there are in your belief system, but I do want to address one thing you did say:

Yet the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. Substitute Aaron for the LORD and the sentence reads the same way in Hebrew. Later Moses and the seventy see the rearward parts of God. Should I believe the Bible or not?

As you say, a few passages taken from the Bible don't equal the Bible.

Exodus 33:11a Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend

What does that mean? Do you think it means that God has a visible body?

In the very same chapter (verse 20) it says, "But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”

The Scripture states directly that God is invisible:
Colossians 1:12-15
I Timothy 1:15-17
Hebrews 11:24-27
John 4:24 says that God is a Spirit and Luke 24:39 says that a spirit does not have flesh and bones.

In Deuteronomy 4:10-13 it says,

10 Remember the day you stood before the Lord your God at Horeb, when the Lord said to me, ‘Assemble the people to Me, that I may let them hear My words so they may learn to [a]fear Me all the days they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children.’ 11 You came near and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire to the very heart of the heavens: darkness, cloud and thick gloom. 12 Then the Lord spoke to you from the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of words, but you saw no form—only a voice. 13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten [b]Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Now, I could ask you what your commentary is on Deuteronomy 4:12, i.e., that they heard His voice but they saw no form, but there is already a Divine commentary on what happened there, in the next chapter:

Deuteronomy 5:1-4: Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the ordinances which I am speaking today in your [a]hearing, that you may learn them and observe [b]them carefully. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of [c]us alive here today. 4 The Lord spoke to you face to face at the mountain from the midst of the fire

Deuteronomy 4 is very clear that they did not see God, and Deuteronomy 5 is also very clear that God was speaking to them face-to-face.

Cordially,

[Regal]

Your response is sad, particularly this week.

[1010RD]

No, it’s not true. I am not an LDS apologist, not in the strict sense. I don’t like bullies, particularly when it is based on their false sense of reality and ignorance of what the Bible really says.

I have on numerous occasions defended LDS doctrine using the Bible to show where it is consistent with scripture. I am especially interested in learning more about and discussing:

1. The nature of God.
2. The creation story.
3. The Fall.
4. The organization of the Church Christ set up.
5. Doctrines of Salvation.

But, I’m happy to discuss any topic in the Bible. Sorry to have taken so long to get back to you. I’ve been extremely busy and will be today as well. I’ll be able to reply over the weekend since I’m off for Easter.

[1010RD]

There’s nothing in Hebrew naming conventions that you should hang your beliefs on. The point is that names matter in the Old and New Testaments. Translations into English lose that importance. For instance Baal means Lord or Master. Jehovah is referred to as Baal meaning Lord or master, but as the meaning changed and became associated with evil false gods and evil practices that usage fell away.

The fight in the OT, NT and today is between truth and error, good and evil, and true and false. It will ever be so until Christ comes.

[kosciusko51]

I am not an LDS apologist, not in the strict sense.

Fair enough. Are you a member of the LDS church? If not, what church do you attend?

[MHGinTN]

Bullies? ‘Their’ false sense of reality? ... So very Smithian of you.

[21twelve]

“In fact, the Psalm declares HIM victorious. It's Friday but Sunday's Coming...”

Our pastor has said something like Jesus was the greatest at judo ever. Just like Judo uses the energy and force of one’s opponent and turns it against him, Jesus used Satan's evil and the Crucifixion to defeat Satan!

[1010RD]

First you have to avoid eisegesis in your scripture study. We come to the Bible with bias. Recognizing it is the first step to understanding. We presume that the Hellenized, Platonic-view that the spiritual is superior to the physical. That's not Biblical, it's pagan.

Starting from the perspective that we must take the Bible as a whole and not build a 'church' or belief system from some nubbin of a verse. Let's put Ex. 33:11 in context.

Starting at the beginning we have Genesis 1:26 where mankind is created in the image of God. That is our first expectation, that we look like God. Look at the Hebrew and note the emphasis: image, likeness (resembling). The Hebrew is consistent throughout the Bible.

Here's a description of biogenesis and how like begets like: Genesis 5:3. In this case it is Adam fathering Seth. Note the words are exactly the same as when Heavenly Father created Adam. Adam being Seth's father we expect that Seth would resemble the image or likeness of his father, Adam, no?

We don't want to Bible-whisper and force our will on the Bible's clear text. This is not Gnosticism, but plain teaching obscured by Greek pagan thought. If you noted my previous post on the name of Yahweh (here: Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh if you haven't read it, please do so now before going on. It's critical to understand that oft mistranslated name.

Now that we've established the general, let's get to the specific in Ex. 33. What's the full context of the chapter? The Lord is speaking with Moses and manifesting himself in a variety of ways to the Israelites. Moses begs the Lord to show him his 'glory'.

The Lord grants this request and does so in a very specific way: 21Then the LORD said, “Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock; 22and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. 23“Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen.”

So we have a physical location that glory can pass by, a hand that can cover a man and a back that can be seen, but a face that cannot be viewed [by a man in his natural state] and the viewer live. This is the clear reference to your Ex 33:20 question.

Note bene that the Hebrew word 'raah' has a lot of depth of meaning. This will be important later.

So now we come to the contention that God is 'invisible'. Is this supported in the scriptures? Let's first consider that the vast portion of the electromagnetic spectrum cannot be viewed with the naked or natural eye. We don't dismiss the existence of things that cannot be seen with the natural eye. Instead, we recognize that additional power must be brought to bear on this limitation. Recognizing that truth is how we brought the electromagnetic spectrum under our control.

Also note that Deut. 4:10-13 is Moses addressing all Israel (at least the most faithful part). They were not allowed to see any part of God. I suspect this is because they were further from God both physically removed as well as spiritually unfit. Hence, Moses' exalted status as God's prophet.

John 4:24 reads in full: God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth." Thus we too are spirits, just like God. The context isn't a limitation of God, but an exhortation to mankind to by internally and externally consistent. Jews today continue to teach that thoughts don't matter, only actions. This is contrary to Jesus' teachings. Don't be polluted by this false doctrine.

Luke 24:39 reads (Weymouth New Testament translation - considered the most doctrinally neutral) See my hands and my feet--it is my very self. Feel me and see, for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see I have."

This is the great confirmation of the Resurrection, not only of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but our future resurrection. Two things follow this fact. If we are to be resurrected, why? The Bible notes that we never lose our resurrected body. We will have bodies resurrected and changed at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Two, look at Christ's ascension. It is bodily. He doesn't ever shed his body. No one has ever searched for the body of Christ as a relic and no reliquary claims his body.

So it is wholly Biblical to believe that those saved by the Grace of Jesus Christ will have bodies just like Jesus does. They will be resurrected, perfect bodies, just like our Masters.

My suggestion is that you carefully read Colossians 1:12-15, I Timothy 1:15-17, and Hebrews 11:24-27 in context without forcing your bias on the text. Look at the Greek and understand that 'unseen' isn't a permanent state, just an earthly one.

Here are some other verses to help you see the proper context: John 6:46 No one has ever seen the Father--except Him who is from God. He has seen the Father.

John 14:9 "Have I been so long among you," Jesus answered, "and yet you, Philip, do not know me? He who has seen me has seen the Father. How can *you* ask me, 'Cause us to see the Father'?

John 8:38 The words I speak are those I have learnt in the presence of the Father. Therefore you also should do what you have heard from your father."

Hope this helps you on your faith journey back to Heavenly Father. Have a great Resurrection Sunday, FRiends.

[kosciusko51]

You claim we come to the Bible with presuppositions. Well, so do you. So I ask you again the following questions:

How many gods are in your theology?

Are you a member of the LDS? If not, what church do you belong to?

Any honest Christian would readily answer these questions.

If you want to continue the discussion, please answer. Otherwise, there is nothing more to discuss here.

[Mom MD]

I need no journey back to the Father. I am there already but thanks for your concern. However those that deny the deity of Christ and a His presence in the Godhead have a ways to go. Good luck in your journey

[MHGinTN]

You left our, in typical Mormon apologetics style, a most crucial passage from John 14, namely

Put that. With the opening on John's gospel and Hear oh Israel, the Lord our God ois One, and the twisting dervish dance of your LDS perspective is expose for what it is, a carefully constructed deception.

[MHGinTN]

From John 14, ‘If you have seen me you have seen the father. For I Am in the father and the father is in me’.

Trying to type on a small screen with big fingers. Sorry

[1010RD]

I am excited to read your reconciliation of those verses already listed in addition to this one you posted. Would you also share with us your explanation of John 14:16.

http://biblehub.com/text/john/14-16.htm

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be for ever with you—the Spirit of truth.

ask/request - http://biblehub.com/greek/2065.htm

give - http://biblehub.com/greek/1325.htm

Everything seems to revolve around subordination to God the Father.

[MHGinTN]

John 1: 1-5

1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 - The same was in the beginning with God.

3 - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 - In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 - And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord

1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1Corinthians 8:6 points directly back to John 's Gospel, the opening passages which show The Word was with God and WAS GOD.

There is ONLY One I AM.

Now, once again, Jesus explained to Philip a Physics lesson, regarding the ability to see only that which we have been built to see. Like a pencil, a three variable object in space, invisible to one with only two variable spatial ability, except where the three variable pencil passes through the two variable space of the two variable being. 'All you can see of the Father is what you see in Me, for I am in the Father and the Father is in me.'

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

The Lord our God is One. And He manifests as three personages according to the work that He is doing, according to the dimensional qualities needed to do His Will. The Word is Jesus. He was in The Father from the beginning, not as Mormonism teaches, as spermatozoon to be released and make a man, but as The Creator, for "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

You may be 'excited', but you may not twist my words to fit your twisted agenda. And you certainly should stop trying to twist the words from the Bible to fit your agenda. Your eisegesis does not align with the whole of scriptures, and perhaps that is why you continue to try and omit verses which do not fit your agenda.

[MHGinTN]

Meant to ping you. *kerping*

[1010RD]

This is an excellent discussion and thanks.

MHGinTN: The Lord our God is One. And He manifests as three personages according to the work that He is doing, according to the dimensional qualities needed to do His Will.
****
That’s simply modalism and we can reject that as a heresy. One of the obvious problems with the Trinitarian heresy is that is lends itself so easily to additional heresies.

Trinitarianism causes all kinds of bad thinking, bad doctrine and Biblical confusion. Let’s focus on the Bible itself.

We cannot ignore the elements that condemn and undermine the Trinity in favor of those we view as supporting it. We have the Bible end to end and it must make sense and be consistent.

We agree on the following: John 1: 1-5

1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John makes several statements of fact: In the beginning (at the creation) was the Word (Jesus Christ/Yahweh); the Word(Jesus Christ/Yahweh) was with God (???-this is weird Greek if you’re talking equivalencies that Word = God and Greeks would notice it - you’d never say, ‘MHGinTN was with MHGinTN’ because you’re always presumed to be where you are. It’s only natural); and the Word (Jesus Christ/Yahweh) was God (the same God he was with?).

The Greek language of this time didn’t have capitalization as distinct from lowercase. The NT was written in all CAPS.

John then clarifies in verse 2 - The same was in the beginning with God.

I don’t think we view 3-5 any differently and can agree on those statements. It’s John’s final statement in 1:1 that deserves our attention.

It can be easily written “the Word was a God” and still be a good translation of the Greek. Let’s not force the Trinitarian formula on it, but explore Christ’s own statements about his relationship with God.

Can you think of any scriptures where Jesus indicates he’s subordinate to Heavenly Father/God?

Here, too, we must not accept the Muslim heresy which degenerates Jesus. Jesus is God and is superior to all prophets. Jesus died and was resurrected via the power of
God.

It’s the nature of God Trinitarians and Muslims both misunderstand.

[Diamond]

Also note that Deut. 4:10-13 is Moses addressing all Israel (at least the most faithful part). They were not allowed to see any part of God. I suspect this is because they were further from God both physically removed as well as spiritually unfit. Hence, Moses' exalted status as God's prophet

In post 54 to which I originally responded you said, "... Yet the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. Substitute Aaron for the LORD and the sentence reads the same way in Hebrew."

If they were not allowed to see any part of God, how is it then that in Deuteronomy 5 Moses, speaking to all Israel tells them, "The Lord spoke to you face to face at the mountain from the midst of the fire..."?

Cordially,

[kosciusko51]

1010RD,

Please do not ping me again unless you are responding to my questions in Post 69.

Thank you,
K51

[MHGinTN]

Are you LDS?

[MHGinTN]

See John 1:5. You are in darkness and seem quite pleased with yourself for it.