Some Evangelicals Take New Look at Bible’s Stance on Gays

NY Times ^ | June 8, 2015 | Laurie Goodstein

[Mrs. Don-o]

The Bible speaks of four sins as crying out to Heaven for vengeance:

• Shedding of Innocent Blood(Gen 4:10)
• The Sin of Sodom (Gen 18:20-21, Ezekiel 16:48-51)
• Oppression of the Poor (Ex 2:23-25)
• Defrauding Workers of a Just Wage (James 5:4).

Scripture speaks of the Sin of Sodom as being multiple sins: (Ezekiel 16:49-50)

Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

"Abomination" surely includes man-on-man sex, but that's not all it includes. Also called "abominations" in the Bible are:

• Seventeen kinds of forbidden intercourse, listed in Leviticus 18:6-23

• Making gold or silver images of a deity (Deut 7:25)

• Burning their sons and daughters (Deut 12:31)

• Cross-dressing (Deut 21:5)

• Re-marrying a wife after you have divorced her (Deut 22:4)

• worshipping Astarte, Milcom, Chimesh, or Molech (1 Kings 11:-7)

• The six abominations of Proverbs 6:16-19

  There are six things the Lord hates,
  yes, seven are an abomination to him;
  

  • Haughty eyes,
  • Lying tongues,
  • Hands that shed innocent blood,
  • Hearts that plots wicked schemes,
  • Feet that are quick to run to evil,
  • False witness who utter lies, and
  • Those who sow discord among kindred.

• (Proverbs 11:1,20)False scales, a crooked heart

• (Prov 17:15) Acquitting the wicked and condemning the just

And there's more, I just got tired of typing.

The Bible does not treat homosexuality quite differently than the other sins. In fact, both in the OT and the NT, it invariably includes it in "sin lists" with many others.

St. Paul's sin catalogues, plus St. John's line-up in Revelation, all list sexual sins in with idolatry, greed, fighting, and every other kind of sin:

• 1 Cor 6:9-10
• Gal 5:19-21
• Eph 5:3-6
• Rev. 22:12-16

I don't think we should try to isolate homosexual vice as a somehow unique kind of wickedness, nor minimize the abomination of all these other sins.

I suspect some people do that because they are not personally tempted by homosexual vice, but are tempted by many of the others. For instance, who, these days, accuses himself of "abomination" for "neglecting the poor and needy" or for "sowing discord"?

[Mrs. Don-o]

Of interest to you, I think:

#101

[Mrs. Don-o]

Right you are, again. The NT specifically abrogates the the ceremonial/ritual and Kosher laws, for instance, and also specifically re-affirms the laws concerning prohibited sex.

[wwcj]

Deuteronomy 22:4 says what???
Might want to double check that.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"To me, sodomites are today’s homosexuals."

Yes, they are.

But not only them. The sin of Sodom includes other kinds of offenses as well. Medieval homilies were known to group together this triad: luxury, usury, sodomy.

As in the Decalogue, each sin listed is, in effect, at the top of a list, a genus with many species, or, if you will, a chapter heading

[Mrs. Don-o]

OOPS! Not verse four. It's Deuteronomy 22:5

A woman shall not wear a man’s garment, nor shall a man put on a woman’s clothing; for anyone who does such things is an abomination to the Lord, your God.

[wwcj]

you are adding to james 5:4 also.
when people take the Word of God out of context or just plain fabricate scripture...it doesn’t help your cause.

I walked out of church this week because a preacher was taking two non related verses, adding them together and coming up with his very own verse and tried teaching a lesson on it.

please be careful with your handling of scripture.
you are welcome.

[Mrs. Don-o]

I didn't add anything to James 5:4. Here's exactly what it says:

"Behold, the wages you withheld from the workers who harvested your fields are crying aloud, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts."

They have not been paid their just wages. This is a sin which cries out to Heaven for vengeance. "Their cries have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts."

[wwcj]

thanks

it is interesting in Deut 22:5 the “person” is mentioned as BEING the abomination....not the sin.

[wwcj]

Again...you are adding words that are not there.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Really? That seems to me to be a distinction without a difference. Look at what else is listed as an abomination:

There are six things the Lord hates,
yes, seven are an abomination to him;

• Haughty eyes,
• Lying tongues,
• Hands that shed innocent blood,
• Hearts that plots wicked schemes,
• Feet that are quick to run to evil,
• False witness who utter lies, and
• Those who sow discord among kindred.

Eyes? Tongues? Hands? Hearts? Feet? Does God call these body parts "abominations," and not the actions which are signified? And then he lists two kinds of people: false witnesses and discord-sowers. Here the person is mentioned as being the abomination, but the meaning, surely, is to say it's their evil intent (to be false in their witness, to be sowers of discord) God is calling abominable.

So, here's the verse you cited:

Deuteronomy 22:5
"A woman shall not wear a man’s garment, nor shall a man put on a woman’s clothing; for anyone who does such things is an abomination to the Lord, your God."

I'd say it's not a condemnation of a particular type of person (e.g. a tomboy? an actor in a play?) but the condemnation of a person with a particular sinful intention.

And what is that intention? I suppose, it could be cross-dressing for a sexually perverse reason. But some who know more Hebrew than I do, interpret the word used for 'clothing' (keliy) as meaning battle gear, and the intent of the commandment is to forbid a woman wearing warriors' garb, e.g. armor, in order to participate in battle, or a man wearing women's garb, possibly to avoid participating in battle:

LINK HERE.

Anyhow, what if the intent is that women should not be in the military? (I don't have an informed opinion on this. I am not a language expert.)

I think it's always the evil intent and act which is called an abomination, not particular organs (eyes, tongues, hands, feet) or particular people in their "being" as opposed to their sin.

(Deuteronomy 14:3-21 --- God speaks of abominable animals --- pigs, vultures, hawks, eels, bats --- but that's a whole different kettle of fish!)

[The_Reader_David]

Actually, in Victorian times, e.g. in the writings of Freud, homosexual, simply meant of the same sex, was an adjective not a noun, and had nothing to do with erotic activity, unless the noun to which it was applied gave it that denotation. The Victorian word would have been sodomite, though I think the word homoerotic might have gotten currency back then in more academic circles.

The Bible condemns what was traditionally in English called sodomy or buggery, but not in those words, and it is only by textual analysis (done in the patristic era and part of the common understanding of all Christian confessions until the lunacy of the past few years) that what is condemned as an abomination in Leviticus and by St. Paul, whose word arsenokoitai parallels the LXX text of Leviticus, is identified with the sin of Sodom and given the name sodomy — which name never appears in the Scriptures.

[The_Reader_David]

Actually, there are a number of sins which are treated the same way as buggery (to which homosexuality, in men, as the word is now used is a besetting temptation) — they are capital crimes under the Old Covenant Law and condemened again in the New Testament. Adultery, murder and witchcraft come readily to mind.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Not so. I didn't add words to the verse. I indicated what it means. "The Four Sins that Cry Out to Heaven" are the four in which the Bible says that cries go up to heaven and reach the ears of God.

Genesis 4:10
God then said: What have you done? Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground!

Genesis 18:20-21
So the Lord said: The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great, and their sin so grave, that I must go down to see whether or not their actions are as bad as the cry against them that comes to me.

Exodus 2:23-24
The Israelites groaned under their bondage and cried out, and from their bondage their cry for help went up to God. God heard their moaning...

James 5:4
Behold, the wages you withheld from the workers who harvested your fields are crying aloud, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts.

In each case, a cry against the sin arises from the earth, and reaches God, and it is God Himself who responds.

[wwcj]

the key word being “vengeance”...you added that word of your own doing.

if you read the Word for yourself and stop relying on others to interpret it for you it helps.

you try the same with others....you post a verse and think you must explain what it means.

guess others are not as smart as you.

i’m done here.

[Westbrook]

Well done!

Thank you.

[itsahoot]

they are capital crimes under the Old Covenant Law and condemened again in the New Testament. Adultery, murder and witchcraft come readily to mind.

Did He ever destroy a whole city because of a murder?

[miss marmelstein]

Actually, the word they used (Freud used it, I just checked) is invert.

[miss marmelstein]

Yes, the ancient world didn’t play identity politics, did they? We were all one in those far-off days.

[Mrs. Don-o]

As you say, you’re done here. But let’s pray for each other.