Posted on 03/31/2024 6:13:30 PM PDT by Veto!
Yes, it is so easy to negotiate away the other guy’s hometown to Russian aggression.
Russia should not be rewarded with any piece of Ukraine. They got away with the land grab in the Republic of Georgia and you want them rewarded via their negotiated settlement.
You are the liar. I could not be more opposed to Obama, Biden, and Soros. But YOU and your Obama promise Russia greater “flexibility”. Obama said it and you advocated it via your Russian negotiated settlement to the land and resource grab.
Zeepers are the unwitting players on the field, careening around shouting the same tropes.
I don’t think the zeepers get it. This is a little too sophisticated for them.
As I often say, not the sharpest knives in the drawer. 😏
Find the post where I said that, you mincing, prancing, lying zeeper.
Russia and Ukraine are both corrupt hellholes. This is a Slavic issue. I am an American. You are a foreigner.
I care about the considerable issues my own country is facing. As I said, my stance on those two cesspools mirrors that of Donald Trump’s. I would like to see the killing and destruction stop. However, I am concerned about other pressing issues. You, on the other hand, are obsessed with Ukraine and Russia to the point of being quite unhinged. Hilariously unhinged.
You zeepers tend to be long on viciousness and short on smarts. And because you tend to be self-absorbed, you don’t see anything beyond your convoluted views.
So yeah, we laugh at you.
You have become quite boring and tedious now. I am going to allow you to have the last vicious, little lie-encrusted word. Give it your best nasty little shot, zeeper. 😄
Ukrainians fight to defend their borders, language and culture against another attack from the filthy Russian World and the armchair political hobbyists who fetishize Putin just can’t understand why. This was never supposed to happen in their fantasy world. “3 days to Kiev”, yadda, yadda, yadda.
Your posts in aggregate are a great compilation of Moscow talking points. You promised flexibility in your previous post when you advocated a negotiated settlement. Negotiations require flexibility. You do a sorry job of pretending to be neutral. The way to deal with Russia’s evil invasion is the same as their previous Afghanistan invasion. Make them suffer until they go home.
You can’t wrap your mind around anything but brainless memes. You don’t understand my posts because you have no knowledge of Ukraine and have never set foot in the Donbas.
In your frustration you use bad words like most Russians.
Dude, those are your own words!! Look at your post #74.
Btw. I have been to Ukraine and Russia many times. Sooo, shut up and don’t lecture me.
I didn’t say you had never been to Ukraine. I said you’ve never been to the Donbas. You have no knowledge of the situation there. You are completely ignorant of the last ten years of Russian crimes there.
Oh yeah, sure... How exactly do you know what knowledge I have???
If you knew the facts and have any kind of heart, you would not be sympathetic to Russia’s invasion.
Tell ya what....
Get your shit together.
Get your facts straight.
You don’t know anything.
Ciao
RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE!RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE!
RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE!
Now pat yourselves in the back, ya weasels.
In 2014, DPR and LPR declared their independence from Ukraine. Thereupon, Ukraine attacked the the DPR and LPR. With help from Russia, the DPR and LPR fended off Ukraine until Ukraine begged and pleaded for a ceasefire which resulted in the MINSK I and II ceasefire agreements. See below:
Minsk I (2014) provided:
3- Decentralisation of power, including through the adoption of the Ukrainian law "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts".
Minsk II (2015) provided (excerpts):
Immediately, no later than in 30 days since the date of the signing of the given document, to adopt a Verkhovna Rada [Ukrainian parliament] resolution to specify the territory to which the special regime applies in accordance with the law of Ukraine "On the special procedure of local self-governance in some districts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions" on the basis of the line set by the Minsk memorandum of 19 September 2014.9. Restoration of full control over the state border in the whole zone of the conflict on the part of the Ukrainian government, which should begin on the first day after local elections and finish after an all-inclusive political settlement (local elections in separate districts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions on the basis of Ukraine's law, and constitutional reform) by the end of 2015, providing the implementation of clause 11 - in consultations and with the agreement of representatives of separate districts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions within the framework of the Tripartite Contact Group.
11. Realization of constitutional reform in Ukraine, with the new constitution to enter into force by the end of 2015, and assuming as a key element the decentralization (taking into account the peculiarities of certain districts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions, as agreed with representatives of these districts), and the enactment of permanent legislation on the special status of certain districts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions in accordance with the measures specified in the footnotes, until the end of 2015 (see footnotes)
12. Issues related to local elections shall be discussed and agreed with representatives of certain districts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions within the framework of the Tripartite Contact Group on the basis of the Ukrainian law "On the temporary procedure for local self-government in certain districts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions". Elections shall be held in compliance with the relevant OSCE standards and monitored by the OSCE ODIHR [Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights].
Footnotes:
Such measures in accordance with the law "On the special procedure of local self-governance in some districts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions" include the following:
- Freedom from punishment, persecution and discrimination for individuals connected to the events that took place in certain districts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions;
- Right to self-determination of language;
Note: The UN Security Council, Resolution 2202 (2015), Adopted by the UN Security Council at its 7384th meeting, on 17 February 2015, states in relevant part, "1. Endorses the "Package of measures for the Implementation of the Minsk Agreements", adopted and signed in Minsk on 12 February 2015 (Annex I)"
Note carefully that Ukraine did not have full control of its borders before or after the Minsk agreements, nor at any time up to the present.
The government had no support for the agreement it signed and never had any intention to implement it.
As the ceasefire agreement of MINSK I (2014) AND II (2015) was never implemented, the armed conflict since 2014 has never ceased, and continues to this day.
While DPR and LPR declared their independence in 2014, Russia did not officially recognize them as free, sovereign and independent states until 2022. After said recognition, offcial diplomatic relations were established and the DPR, LPR and the Russian Federation entered into a mutual defense pact. Upon the first aggressive act after that, the Russian Federation was obliged to come to the aid of DPR and LPR, just as surely as the United States if a NATO nation had been attacked. Acting under the umbrella of the mutual defense pact, Russia commenced its highly successful Special Operation in aid of its allied nations, acting to repel the neighboring mongrels and the Nuland government.
By your logic
If you knew the facts and have any kind of heart, you would not be sympathetic to Russia’s invasion.
One might see how inviting NATO onto the Russia-Ukraine border could just possibly be found by Russia to be to the detriment of the security of Russia. And except for that tiny miscalculation, Ukraine might not be in its current predicament.
https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/Part/volume-3007-I-52240.pdf
Volume 3007, I-52240117
No. 52240
____
Ukraine and Russian Federation
Treaty on Friendship, Cooperation and Partnership between Ukraine and the Russian Federation. Kiev, 31 May 1997
Entry into force: 1 April 1999, in accordance with article 39
Authentic texts: Russian and Ukrainian
Registration with the Secretariat of the United Nations: Ukraine, 2 October 2014
[...]
Article 6
Each High Contracting Party shall refrain from participating in, or supporting, any actions directed against the other High Contracting Party, and shall not conclude any treaties with third countries against the other Party. Neither Party shall allow its territory to be used to the detriment of the security of the other Party.
Putin said, “Russia knows no borders.” He bemoans the loss of the old Soviet Union and wishes to reestablish it. It was no small miscalculation that he invaded the Republic of Georgia, part of Ukraine in 2014, and an all out invasion of Ukraine in 2022. He rattles the sabre constantly over the Baltic states and Poland. His mindset is well illustrated by his remarks blaming Poland for the 1939 invasion of Poland by Germany and the Soviet Union.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luhansk_People%27s_Republic
The LPR declared independence from Ukraine in the aftermath of the Revolution of Dignity and pro-Russian unrest in 2014, along with the Donetsk People's Republic (DPR). This marked the beginning of the War in Donbas, which is part of the wider Russo-Ukrainian War, with the separatist republics receiving Russian military aid.
Ukraine’s prosecutor general classifies self-declared Donetsk and Luhansk republics as terrorist organizationsBy Interfax-Ukraine.
Published May 16, 2014 at 9:54 pmThe self-declared People's Republic of Donetsk and People's Republic of Luhansk have been classified as terrorist organizations, the press service of Ukraine's General Prosecutor Office said. ...
It seems the Ukraine prosecutor general heard about the DPR and LPR declarations of independence by May of 2014.
On February 21, 2022, Russia officially recognized the LPR and the DPR. Belarus, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Sudan, and the Central African Republic have endorsed the Russian recognition of DPR and LPR.
DPR and LPR were officially recognized by North Korea (July 13, 2022) and Syria (June 29, 2022).
DPR and LPR have each had a functioning government since 2014, much as the states did after they declared independence. Whether they became independent states depended on the outcome of the war. With the Paris Peace Treaty of 1783, the States were recognized as free, sovereign and independent states. Independence following successful revolution is considered retroactive to the date of the declaration of independence.
Vermont declared independence in 1777, fought a successful revolution, and established itself as a free and sovereign state, not in the union. In 1791, after 14 years of independence, Vermont joined the constitutional union as a free, sovereign and independent state, with self-appointed borders.
The States declared independence from Great Britain on July 4, 1776. Did Britain, or anyone else, officially recognize the United States of America on July 4, 1776?
The Confederacy declared independence from the United States, and they were officially recognized by the United States of America as a lawful belligerent power on April 19, 1861. The Confederacy was recognized by Saxe, Coburg and Gotha on July 30, 1861. The Confederacy lost the war. That determined that retroactive to its declaration of independence, its entire existence as a free, sovereign and independent state was null and void, as if it never happened.
If there is a war, independence is determined by the outcome of the war.
Successful separation from a state by revolutionaries is determined by the parties involved, not by third party recognition. The People's Republic of China was established in 1949. The United States recognized the Taiwan government in exile as the government of all China until January 1, 1979 when the U.S. severed relations with Taiwan and recognized the PRC. The PRC existed for thirty years without U.S. recognition. For that thirty years, Taiwan did not govern anywhere but the island of Taiwan. Taiwan was evicted from the United Nations in 1971. Officially, it is a province of the People's Republic of China.
https://time.com/26936/crimea-russia-ukraine-independence-2/
Crimea Lawmakers Declare IndependenceBy Nate Rawlings
March 17, 2014 7:19 AM EDTCrimea’s parliament declared that the region is an independent state on Monday, a day after residents voted overwhelmingly to break away from Ukraine and seek to become part of Russia.
The announcement followed a region-wide referendum, in which residents of the autonomous and contested peninsula voted to secede from Ukraine and join Russia. With about half of the votes counted, roughly 95 percent of Crimeans had voted to split from Ukraine, according to an election official cited by the Associated Press. On Monday, the Crimean parliament announced that it would begin implementing the secession, first by seizing all Ukrainian state property, which it said will be nationalized and become the property of the Crimean Republic. On Monday, a delegation of Crimean lawmakers will travel to Moscow to discuss how to proceed with officially joining the Russian Federation.
At its request, Crimea was annexed by Russia. The international community is not big on that one either, but Ukraine has made no attempt to govern Crimea in the years since annexation.
It was following the United States supported regime change in Ukraine, installing a puppet government of a client state, that the majority Russian speaking areas of Ukraine declared their independence from the revolutionary government of Ukraine.
Conflict followed which included Russian assistance. Ukraine voluntarily agreed to the MINSK I and MINSK II ceasefire agreements which were endorsed by the United Nations Security Council. With the ceasefire agreements never being implemented, the 2014 conflict continues. Below is what was agreed to and not implemented.
MINSK I PROTOCOL (1 September 2014)
https://peacemaker.un.org/sites/peacemaker.un.org/files/UA_140905_MinskCeasfire_en.pdf
Original official document in Russian only.
Annex I to the letter dated 24 February 2015 from the Permanent Representative of Ukraine to the United Nations addressed to the President of the Security Council[Original: Russian]
Protocol on the outcome of consultations of the Trilateral Contact Group on joint steps aimed at the implementation of the Peace Plan of the President of Ukraine, P. Poroshenko, and the initiatives of the President of the Russian Federation, V. Putin
Upon consideration and discussion of the proposals put forward by the participants of the consultations in Minsk on 1 September 2014, the Trilateral Contact Group, consisting of representatives of Ukraine, the Russian Federation and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), reached an understanding with respect to the need to implement the following steps:
1. Ensure the immediate bilateral cessation of the use of weapons.
2. Ensure monitoring and verification by OSCE of the regime of non-use of weapons.
3. Implement decentralization of power, including by enacting the Law of Ukraine on the interim status of local self-government in certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions (Law on Special Status).
4. Ensure permanent monitoring on the Ukrainian-Russian State border and verification by OSCE, along with the establishment of a security area in the border regions of Ukraine and the Russian Federation.
5. Immediately release all hostages and unlawfully detained persons.
6. Enact a law prohibiting the prosecution and punishment of persons in connection with the events that took place in certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions of Ukraine.
7. Continue an inclusive national dialogue.
8. Adopt measures aimed at improving the humanitarian situation in Donbass.
9. Ensure the holding of early local elections in accordance with the Law of Ukraine on the interim status of local self-government in certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions (Law on Special Status).
10. Remove unlawful military formations and military hardware, as well as militants and mercenaries, from the territory of Ukraine.
11. Adopt a programme for the economic revival of Donbass and the resumption of vital activity in the region.
12. Provide personal security guarantees for the participants of the consultations.
Participants of the Trilateral Contact Group:
(Signed) Heidi Tagliavini,
Ambassador(Signed) L. D. Kuchma,
Second President of Ukraine(Signed) M. Y. Zurabov,
Ambassador of the Russian Federation to Ukraine(Signed) A. W. Zakharchenko
(Signed) I. W. Plotnitski
- - - - - - - - - -
https://comw.org/pda/fulltext/UNSC-Res-2202-Minsk.pdf
The Minsk Agreement of 12 February 2015 (MINSK II) followed the Minsk Protocol of 5 September 2014 (MINSK I)
MINSK II AGREEMENT, 12 February 2015 (as endorsed at UN Security Council, 17 Feb 2015)
ANNEX IPackage of Measures for the Implementation of the Minsk Agreements
Minsk, 12 February 2015
1. Immediate and comprehensive ceasefire in certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions of Ukraine and its strict implementation as of 15 February 2015, 12 a.m. local time.
2. Withdrawal of all heavy weapons by both sides by equal distances in order to create a security zone of at least 50 km wide from each other for the artillery systems of calibre of 100 and more, a security zone of 70 km wide for MLRS and 140 km wide for MLRS “Tornado-S”, Uragan, Smerch and Tactical Missile Systems (Tochka, Tochka U):
— for the Ukrainian troops: from the de facto line of contact;
— for the armed formations from certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions of Ukraine : from the line of contact according to the Minsk Memorandum of Sept. 19th, 2014;
The withdrawal of the heavy weapons as specified above is to start on day 2 of the ceasefire at the latest and be completed within 14 days.
The process shall be facilitated by the OSCE and supported by the Trilateral Contact Group.
3. Ensure effective monitoring and verification of the ceasefire regime and the withdrawal of heavy weapons by the OSCE from day 1 of the withdrawal, using all technical equipment necessary, including satellites, drones, radar equipment, etc.
4. Launch a dialogue, on day 1 of the withdrawal, on modalities of local elections in accordance with Ukrainian legislation and the Law of Ukraine “On interim local self-government order in certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions” as well as on the future regime of these areas based on this law.
Adopt promptly, by no later than 30 days after the date of signing of this document a Resolution of the Parliament of Ukraine specifying the area enjoying a special regime, under the Law of Ukraine “On interim self-government order in certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions”, based on the line of the Minsk Memorandum of September 19, 2014.
5. Ensure pardon and amnesty by enacting the law prohibiting the prosecution and punishment of persons in connection with the events that took place in certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions of Ukraine.
6. Ensure release and exchange of all hostages and unlawfully detained persons, based on the principle “all for all”. This process is to be finished on the day 5 after the withdrawal at the latest.
7. Ensure safe access, delivery, storage, and distribution of humanitarian assistance to those in need, on the basis of an international mechanism.
8. Definition of modalities of full resumption of socioeconomic ties, including social transfers such as pension payments and other payments (incomes and revenues, timely payments of all utility bills, reinstating taxation within the legal framework of Ukraine).
To this end, Ukraine shall reinstate control of the segment of its banking system in the conflict-affected areas and possibly an international mechanism to facilitate such transfers shall be established.
9. Reinstatement of full control of the state border by the government of Ukraine throughout the conflict area, starting on day 1 after the local elections and ending after the comprehensive political settlement (local elections in certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions on the basis of the Law of Ukraine and constitutional reform) to be finalized by the end of 2015, provided that paragraph 11 has been implemented in consultation with and upon agreement by representatives of certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions in the framework of the Trilateral Contact Group.
10. Withdrawal of all foreign armed formations, military equipment, as well as mercenaries from the territory of Ukraine under monitoring of the OSCE. Disarmament of all illegal groups.
11. Carrying out constitutional reform in Ukraine with a new constitution entering into force by the end of 2015 providing for decentralization as a key element (including a reference to the specificities of certain areas in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, agreed with the representatives of these areas), as well as adopting permanent legislation on the special status of certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions in line with measures as set out in the footnote until the end of 2015. [Note]
12. Based on the Law of Ukraine “On interim local self-government order in certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions”, questions related to local elections will be discussed and agreed upon with representatives of certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions in the framework of the Trilateral Contact Group. Elections will be held in accordance with relevant OSCE standards and monitored by OSCE/ODIHR.
13. Intensify the work of the Trilateral Contact Group including through the establishment of working groups on the implementation of relevant aspects of the Minsk agreements. They will reflect the composition of the Trilateral Contact Group.
Note
Such measures are, according to the Law on the special order for local selfgovernment in certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions:
— Exemption from punishment, prosecution and discrimination for persons involved in the events that have taken place in certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions;
— Right to linguistic self-determination;
— Participation of organs of local self-government in the appointment of heads of public prosecution offices and courts in certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions;
— Possibility for central governmental authorities to initiate agreements with organs of local self-government regarding the economic, social and cultural development of certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions;
— State supports the social and economic development of certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions;
— Support by central government authorities of cross-border cooperation in certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions with districts of the Russian Federation;
— Creation of the people's police units by decision of local councils for the maintenance of public order in certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions;
— The powers of deputies of local councils and officials, elected at early elections, appointed by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine by this law, cannot be early terminated.
Participants of the Trilateral Contact Group:
Ambassador Heidi Tagliavini
Second President of Ukraine, L. D. Kuchma
Ambassador of the Russian Federation to Ukraine, M. Yu. Zurabov
A.W. Zakharchenko
I.W. Plotnitski
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
ANNEX IIDeclaration of the President of the Russian Federation, the President of Ukraine, the President of the French Republic and the Chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany in support of the “Package of Measures for the Implementation of the Minsk Agreements”, adopted on 12 February 2015 in Minsk
The President of the Russian Federation, Vladimir Putin, the President of Ukraine, Petro Poroshenko, the President of the French Republic, François Hollande, and the Chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany, Dr. Angela Merkel, reaffirm their full respect for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine. They firmly believe that there is no alternative to an exclusively peaceful settlement. They are fully committed to undertake all possible individual and joint measures to this end.
Against this background, leaders endorse the Package of Measures for the Implementation of the Minsk Agreements adopted and signed on February 12, 2015 by all signatories who also signed Minsk Protocol of September 5, 2014 and Minsk Memorandum of September 19, 2014. Leaders will contribute to this process and will use their influence on relevant parties to facilitate the implementation of that Package of Measures.
Germany and France will provide technical expertise for the restoration of the segment of the banking system in the conflict affected areas, possibly through the establishment of an international mechanism to facilitate social transfers.
Leaders share the conviction that improved cooperation between the EU, Ukraine and Russia will be conducive to the crisis settlement. To this end, they endorse the continuation of trilateral talks between the EU, Ukraine and Russia on energy issues in order to achieve follow-up stages to the gas winter package.
They also support trilateral talks between the EU, Ukraine and Russia in order to achieve practical solutions to concerns raised by Russia with regards to the implementation of the Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Agreement between Ukraine and the EU.
Leaders remain committed to the vision of a joint humanitarian and economic space from the Atlantic to the Pacific based upon full respect for international law and the OSCE principles.
Leaders will remain committed to the implementation of the Minsk Agreements. To this end, they agree to establish an oversight mechanism in the Normandy format which will convene at regular intervals, in principle on the level of senior officials from the foreign ministries.
You do a great job of cutting and pasting Moscow’s version of events.
I have family and friends in Alchevsk, about a 35 minute drive from Lugansk city and I know the real story of what happened in the Donbas. The fake separatist movement was a Moscow operation starting before 2014. At that time, they flooded social media with syrupy Soviet nostalgia postings. DO YOU REMEMBER ... THE WONDERFUL ICE CREAM THAT WE HAD BACK IN THE ‘80s (yes, all one flavor) and such was pushed all over Russia and its former republics. Then in the Donbas, Mafia tactics began. Agents organized pro-Russian cells, officials were bribed or threatened or both (plata or plomo), influence was gained in the mill towns and with the unions and the underfunded police were slow to get on top of the situation. Capable leaders were threatened or “disappeared” (in the Argentinian sense). But nothing really worked for the Russians so troops without insignia arrived. And soon so did a shooting war.
We’ve got two on this thread alone taking an early neck and neck lead for this week’s contest. #unhinged
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