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Here may be our problem with Islam
The Koran #47 - Muhammad ^ | 600+ AD | Muhammad

Posted on 09/19/2001 10:47:16 AM PDT by XBob

The Koran


Muhammad

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.[47.1] (As for) those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way, He shall render their works ineffective.
[47.2] And (as for) those who believe and do good, and believe in what has been revealed to Muhammad, and it is the very truth from their Lord, He will remove their evil from them and improve their condition.
[47.3] That is because those who disbelieve follow falsehood, and have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
[47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.
[47.5] He will guide them and improve their condition.
[47.6] And cause them to enter the garden which He has made known to them.
[47.7] O you who believe ! if you help (the cause of) Allah, He will help you and make firm your feet.
[47.8] And (as for) those who disbelieve, for them is destruction and He has made their deeds ineffective.
[47.9] That is because they hated what Allah revealed, so He rendered their deeds null.
[47.10] Have they not then journeyed in the land and seen how was the end of those before them: Allah brought down destruction upon them, and the unbelievers shall have the like of it.
[47.11] That is because Allah is the Protector of those who believe, and because the unbelievers shall have no protector for them.
[47.12] Surely Allah will make those who believe and do good enter gardens beneath which rivers flow; and those who disbelieve enjoy themselves and eat as the beasts eat, and the fire is their abode.
[47.13] And how many a town which was far more powerful than the town of yours which has driven you out: We destroyed them so there was no helper for them.
[47.14] What! is he who has a clear argument from his Lord like him to whom the evil of his work is made fairseeming: and they follow their low desires.
[47.15] A parable of the garden which those guarding (against evil) are promised: Therein are rivers of water that does not alter, and rivers of milk the taste whereof does not change, and rivers of drink delicious to those who drink, and rivers of honey clarified and for them therein are all fruits and protection from their Lord. (Are these) like those who abide in the fire and who are made to drink boiling water so it rends their bowels asunder.
[47.16] And there are those of them who seek to listen to you, until when they go forth from you, they say to those who have been given the knowledge: What was it that he said just now? These are they upon whose hearts Allah has set a seal and they follow their low desires.
[47.17] And (as for) those who follow the right direction, He increases them in guidance and gives them their guarding (against evil).
[47.18] Do they then wait for aught but the hour that it should come to them all of a sudden? Now indeed the tokens of it have (already) come, but how shall they have their reminder when it comes on them?
[47.19] So know that there is no god but Allah, and, ask protection for your fault and for the believing men and the believing women; and Allah knows the place of your returning and the place of your abiding.
[47.20] And those who believe say: Why has not a chapter been revealed? But when a decisive chapter is revealed, and fighting is mentioned therein you see those in whose hearts is a disease look to you with the look of one fainting because of death. Woe to them then!
[47.21] Obedience and a gentle word (was proper); but when the affair becomes settled, then if they remain true to Allah it would certainly be better for them.
[47.22] But if you held command, you were sure to make mischief in the land and cut off the ties of kinship!
[47.23] Those it is whom Allah has cursed so He has made them deaf and blinded their eyes.
[47.24] Do they not then reflect on the Quran? Nay, on the hearts there are locks.
[47.25] Surely (as for) those who return on their backs after that guidance has become manifest to them, the Shaitan has made it a light matter to them; and He gives them respite.
[47.26] That is because they say to those who hate what Allah has revealed: We will obey you in some of the affairs; and Allah knows their secrets.
[47.27] But how will it be when the angels cause them to die smiting their backs.
[47.28] That is because they follow what is displeasing to Allah and are averse to His pleasure, therefore He has made null their deeds.
[47.29] Or do those in whose hearts is a disease think that Allah will not bring forth their spite?
[47.30] And if We please We would have made you know them so that you would certainly have recognized them by their marks and most certainly you can recognize them by the intent of (their) speech; and Allah knows your deeds.
[47.31] And most certainly We will try you until We have known those among you who exert themselves hard, and the patient, and made your case manifest.
[47.32] Surely those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way and oppose the Apostle after that guidance has become clear to them cannot harm Allah in any way, and He will make null their deeds.
[47.33] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle, and do not make your deeds of no effect.
[47.34] Surely those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way, then they die while they are unbelievers, Allah will by no means forgive them.
[47.35] And be not slack so as to cry for peace and you have the upper hand, and Allah is with you, and He will not bring your deeds to naught.
[47.36] The life of this world is only idle sport and play, and if you believe and guard (against evil) He will give you your rewards, and will not ask of you your possessions.
[47.37] If He should ask you for it and urge you, you will be niggardly, and He will bring forth your malice.
[47.38] Behold! you are those who are called upon to spend in Allah's way, but among you are those who are niggardly, and whoever is niggardly is niggardly against his own soul; and Allah is Self-sufficient and you have need (of Him), and if you turn back He will bring in your place another people, then they will not be like you.




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For your review
1 posted on 09/19/2001 10:47:16 AM PDT by XBob
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Comment #2 Removed by Moderator

Comment #3 Removed by Moderator

To: XBob
Here is a interesting Hindu take on Islam. The author does not spare his feelings at all.
4 posted on 09/19/2001 11:17:13 AM PDT by Drew68
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To: AlleVonTech
that part sounds just like some of the 'christian' rants on FR I have been subject to, if you take the meanings and not the strange verbage.
5 posted on 09/19/2001 11:23:40 AM PDT by XBob
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To: XBob
My daughters and I were discussing Mohammed the other night. We wondered kind of religious background he came from. In other words, What religion was practiced by his friends and relatives before he introduced Islam?

So we looked him up in several books we have, including the Pictorial History of Philosphy, by Dagobert D. Runes, Philosophical Library , NY. (pp 166-167)

It seems idolatry was practiced in his area, but Mohammed changed that.

We also learned, from the book, that "He did not feel he was a saint, and consciously refrained from performing miracles."

6 posted on 09/19/2001 11:24:09 AM PDT by syriacus
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To: XBob
So why does GWB trip over himself to make a distinction between terrorists and Islam, "a peaceful religion???"

Or was he intentionally using the term "crusade" as an allusion to what's coming.

7 posted on 09/19/2001 11:25:46 AM PDT by sam_paine
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To: Kalashnikov_68
Here is a interesting Hindu take on Islam. The author does not spare his feelings at all.

Thank you for the informative link.

8 posted on 09/19/2001 11:26:25 AM PDT by syriacus
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To: XBob
Here's MY review:

It's making my eyes glaze over.

Michael

9 posted on 09/19/2001 11:27:13 AM PDT by Wright is right!
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

Comment #11 Removed by Moderator

To: syriacus
I'll have to remember that...

"I consiously refrain from performing miracles." is my new credo.

12 posted on 09/19/2001 11:48:13 AM PDT by sharktrager
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Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: syriacus
Mohammed was a radical something (I haven't been able to determine what), born in Mecca, he was run out of Mecca as a young man by the people there. He sought refuge in Medina and was welcomed by the Jews there in Medina, for about 17 years. He started his writings and gathering Medina Jews for his army and began to attack other tribes in the area of Medina, built his army and trained his Jewish Generals, until they were able to attack Mecca and beat his old enemies. Then the Jews got fed up with him, and quit his army, and were then attacked by his remaining army and killed. He was initially a minor husband of a rich woman in Medina and took her riches to start his career.

So, Mohammed is a puzzlement, who turned on just about everyone who befriended him. Must have been quite a talker though. I guess he reminds me of bill clinton.

14 posted on 09/19/2001 12:00:58 PM PDT by XBob
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To: syriacus
According to Paul Johnson's History Of Christianity, Mohammed was a Monophysite Christian -- i.e., a Christian who did not accept the doctrine of the Trinity. He simplified Christian doctrine for Arabic consumption, added the idea of conversion by the sword for local political effectiveness, and accepted the role of Prophet of the new faith of Islam after it became the dominant religious and political force in the region. Within twenty years, the Monophysites had nearly all been absorbed into Islam.

Freedom, Wealth, and Peace,
Francis W. Porretto
Visit the Palace Of Reason: http://palaceofreason.com

15 posted on 09/19/2001 12:01:37 PM PDT by fporretto
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Comment #16 Removed by Moderator

Comment #17 Removed by Moderator

To: sam_paine
"So why does GWB trip over himself to make a distinction between terrorists and Islam, "a peaceful religion???" Or was he intentionally using the term "crusade" as an allusion to what's coming"

All my Moslem friends are generally very peaceful and honorable, but like Christians, will fight. Like radical Christians and Jews, the Moslems all 3 religions believe also in the same God, but selectively pick portions of the Koran/Bible to justify their hegonomy.

I just picked this one as one of the passages which 'justifies' their actions. Remember too that all non-christians are going to hell, and 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.'

I think W just made a normal choice of his normal vocabulary in choosing the word 'crusade'. Just a long term 'war', not a single battle. Unfortunately, it was taken in the meaning used in the middle-ages. He is now using the synonym, for his meaning, 'campaign'.

18 posted on 09/19/2001 12:10:14 PM PDT by XBob
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Comment #19 Removed by Moderator

To: SkyPilot
God made a promise to Israel-

Where does it all end, all made promises. All using religion in their Will To Power

Comments like yours disgust me.

Next time get it in writing from God, rather than heresay.

20 posted on 09/19/2001 12:14:20 PM PDT by Helms
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To: Manny Festo
17 - I concur
21 posted on 09/19/2001 12:16:41 PM PDT by XBob
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Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

To: Helms
Gen 16:10-12 And the angel of the LORD said unto her [Hagar], I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou [art] with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. {Ishmael: that is, God shall hear} And he will be a wild man; his hand [will be] against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. {that is, he will be against his half-brother, Isaac}

Gen 17:19-22 And God said [to Abraham], Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, [and] with his seed after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year. And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

It's in writing from God.

23 posted on 09/19/2001 12:30:25 PM PDT by kinsman redeemer
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Comment #24 Removed by Moderator

To: syriacus
Mohammed was educated by private Jewish and Christian turors when he was a boy. His desire was to unite the Arab world in religious unity, as he saw how that unity benefited the Jews and Christians. His original intent was to create a sect of Jewdiasm, but the Jews flatly rejected his views as heresy.

He decided that the Arabs needed one god to worship, because they were worshipping about 100,00 different gods at the time. From the plethora of idols worshipped, he chose Allah, the moon-god.

The koran was not compiled by him, but by his followers. Whenever he would speak, a stenographer would record his speaches and the transcripts would be saved in a basket...the older speaches on the bottom. Later, it was decided to complie all of the transcripts into one text. Since the most recent writings were on top, they were recorded first, all the way to the oldest. Today, when reading the koran, the oldest of his sayings are at the back and the newest, at the front. You'll notice that the newest are the most vicious and restrictive, because as his following grew, so did his rejection and hence, we see his anger against those that don't hold his views.

He is as he was. A heretic.

oops...how insensitive of me.

baa

25 posted on 09/19/2001 12:57:19 PM PDT by woollyone
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To: woollyone
oops.
"Jewdiasm" s/b "Judiasm". Sorry.
26 posted on 09/19/2001 1:00:22 PM PDT by woollyone
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To: woollyone
Where do ya'll get this "moon god" garbage? Allah is the God of the Jews and Christians. The Koran attributes Allah as the God Of Abraham.

Moon-god. Sheesh. And I thought the Mormans had it rough.

27 posted on 09/19/2001 1:07:24 PM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: AppyPappy
Pappy,
Respectfully, Allah is the moon-god & according to the founding of Mohammed, he declared allah to be the god of Abraham...which doesn't necessarily make it truth, rather just the man's declaration. Of course he twisted much of the Biblical record. For instance, he declared that it was Ishmael that Abraham was told to sacrafice, not Isaac. Just like much of the lies of the pit, just enough truth to make the lie believable.

please, do look it up for yourself.

baa

28 posted on 09/19/2001 1:16:27 PM PDT by woollyone
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Comment #29 Removed by Moderator

To: Manny Festo donh
good points Manny - maybe you can get some sense into donh's head.
30 posted on 09/19/2001 11:43:39 PM PDT by XBob
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Comment #31 Removed by Moderator

To: donh
To: XBob So, if you wish to "eat as the beasts eat, and the fire is their abode. ", do nothing to disturb them, and take no action. These people are serious, and seriously deranged. In our bible, it says, "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"--are we therefore sufficiently deranged that LA should be occupied by Allah's forces until we come to our senses? This is holy war rhetoric, not a rational argument for adventurous foreign wars against non-aggressors. This is a bad, bad idea which has been given little rational thought and with potentially devastating repercussions from any angle you look at it.

337 Posted on 09/19/2001 23:31:30 PDT by donh

=======

Christianity has it's share of nuts too, and in western society, including you -

""--are we therefore sufficiently deranged that LA should be occupied by Allah's forces until we come to our senses? "

This is exactly what you have been arguing for.

As I said before, you are nuts.

32 posted on 09/19/2001 11:50:38 PM PDT by XBob
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To: XBob
My problem is with being told not to consider religion as an operative factor in all of this, while at the same time being told Moslems should be allowed special dispensation because of their faith and regarded on behalf of it. Those who expect this are hypocritical and misguided. It can't be both ways and be credible. Since Islamic militant extremists are calling this a "holy" war, it is reasonable to presume THEY consider religion an operative, if not primary factor, and thus they have necessitated a discussion of their beliefs and its relevance. Finally, when one identifies and refers to himself by his religion, operating on that basis is unavoidable.
33 posted on 09/19/2001 11:55:45 PM PDT by rebelsoldier
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To: syriacus
Don't they believe he went to heaven on his horse??? That says it all.
34 posted on 09/19/2001 11:57:51 PM PDT by Ann Archy
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Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

To: woollyone
I know I'll get flamed for this but he kind of sounds like the joe smith of the camel jockey world.
36 posted on 09/20/2001 12:04:56 AM PDT by alaskanfan
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To: rebelsoldier
33 - I agree: "My problem is with being told not to consider religion as an operative factor in all of this, while at the same time being told Moslems should be allowed special dispensation because of their faith and regarded on behalf of it. Those who expect this are hypocritical and misguided. "

Very few of those who cite the Koran as being peacful, know nothing about it's origin, or have ever read it. I started reading it years ago, to give me an idea of the culture of where I was living (Egypt at the time). It has a lot of good stuff in it. But it also has a lot of bad and intolerant stuff in it, a small bit of which I quoted above.

37 posted on 09/20/2001 12:14:14 AM PDT by XBob
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To: XBob

This is exactly what you have been arguing for.

Oh? How so?

As I said before, you are nuts.

Yes, you say it frequently, often after issuing a bon mot like this one, or your previous prizewinner: "there were more German spies in Switzerland, than there were Swiss", which I also can't figure out, either on it's own, or what its point is in the discussion.

38 posted on 09/20/2001 12:22:28 AM PDT by donh
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To: donh
Who says we are going to Afghanistan?

Give me a break. The government has been pumping Ben Laden into the ears of our whorish newspeople from day one of the attack. Do you seriously think any significant news arises from reporters doing investigative work? It's not a deep, dark secret that we have been preping for Afganistan for about 6 months now. Foreign diplomats have been briefed on this subject, and reported so to the news media.

340 Posted on 09/20/2001 00:01:48 PDT by donh

====

interesting, you admit you aren't any smarter than those in our dumbest profession, the major media.

39 posted on 09/20/2001 12:26:03 AM PDT by XBob
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To: donh
you can't figure it out? " This is exactly what you have been arguing for. Oh? How so? "

dumber than our dumbest profession, read your own posts.

40 posted on 09/20/2001 12:29:17 AM PDT by XBob
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To: SkyPilot
Expect the "jihadist appeasers" to get this thread pulled, too.
41 posted on 09/20/2001 12:31:17 AM PDT by Stingray
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To: XBob

interesting, you admit you aren't any smarter than those in our dumbest profession, the major media.

I see. What interesting logic. By the same reasoning, since you quote the koran, may I then assume that you are the same as an arab terrorist?

42 posted on 09/20/2001 12:49:33 AM PDT by donh
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To: sam_paine
"So why does GWB trip over himself to make a distinction between terrorists and Islam, "a peaceful religion???""

Out of respect for other peaceful folks even if they hold ignorant and illogical beliefs. It is traditional practice in the US.

43 posted on 09/20/2001 12:51:33 AM PDT by spunkets
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To: XBob

dumber than our dumbest profession, read your own posts.

Apparently, you can't argue yourself out of a paper bag, so I will have to help you. There is zero logical connection to suggest in any manner that I am arguing for the benefits of an Islamic occupancy of Georgia, any more than I am arguing for the benefits of an American occupancy of Afganistan, and the best way to avoid any chance of the one, is to avoid the other, just as the best way to avoid islamic bombs in NY, would have been avoiding american bombs in Bagdad.

History suggests that one of the best ways to assure an occupancy of your country by foreign troops, is to occupy their country, but fail to kill them all.

44 posted on 09/20/2001 1:00:15 AM PDT by donh
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To: AppyPappy

"Allah is the God of the Jews and Christians."

OK, so now I understand the source of your confusion. The Koran specifically denies the deity of Christ, or that He is God incarnate.

Here Muhammad calls Christians liars and calls for "Allah" to destroy them for worshipping Christ!

[9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

Here Muhammad writes that Christ wasn't even crucified!

[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.


Here Muhammad tells Christians not to lie about the Christ, and calls Christ but just one of Allah's prophets, and even claims that Allah had no son nor needed one!

[4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.

Here Muhammad repeats his claim that Christ "is but an apostle" of Allah, then chastises Christians, claiming they have turned away by worshipping Christ!

[5.75] The Messiah, son of Marium is but an apostle; apostles before him have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman; they both used to eat food. See how We make the communications clear to them, then behold, how they are turned away.

Now, what does the Apostle John tell us of such "spirits?"

I John 4:1-3

"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world."

I John 4:14-15

"And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God."

II John 7,

"Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist."

Now you may not agree with any of this, but then that's the difference between Christianity and Islam: you are free to believe anything you wish in a Christian culture. You are not free to do so in a Muslim one.

Now, run along and get this thread pulled because you don't like the truth.

45 posted on 09/20/2001 1:00:34 AM PDT by Stingray
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To: donh
42 - you continue to repeatedly prove my point.
46 posted on 09/20/2001 1:05:12 AM PDT by XBob
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To: AppyPappy
And just in case you missed the point of my last post to you, the God of the Jews and Christians is the One that sent Christ - His only begotten Son - into the world to suffer and die for us.

Because Islam denies this, Allah is clearly not the same God as that of the Christians and Jews.

47 posted on 09/20/2001 1:07:43 AM PDT by Stingray
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To: donh
44 - " just as the best way to avoid islamic bombs in NY, would have been avoiding american bombs in Bagdad"

As I said before, 'walk to work' !!!!!

You can't have your gas and be a coward too.

48 posted on 09/20/2001 1:09:27 AM PDT by XBob
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To: AppyPappy

"The Koran attributes Allah as the God Of Abraham."

You could stand in your garage and call yourself a car. Would that make it so?

The Bible specifically denies both of the assertions you are making. Again, you may not believe that, but you do so contrary to the evidence presented to you on this thread.

What's your agenda here, Appy?

49 posted on 09/20/2001 1:26:05 AM PDT by Stingray
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To: Stingray
What is your agenda behind these lies? You continously ignore the obvious in favor of self-serving falsehoods.
50 posted on 09/20/2001 5:01:31 AM PDT by AppyPappy
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