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To: kosta50
I've read it, or at least, segments of it. I also was involved in a project that required me to read the Hadith, which, according to the authoritative "Introduction to Islam," is considered to be the spiritual equivalent to the Koran. Betcha didn't know that.

If you read the Hadith, it makes YOUR point even stronger, though not airtight. The Prophet PERSONALLY ordered the horrible death and mutilation of people who so much as stole a camel (Jesus said of His killers, "forgive them Father, for they know not what they do"). The Hadith is the writings about Muhammad, and what he said and did, by those closest to him---sort of like the Gospels except for the "red letters." He had multiple slaves (Jesus didn't have a slave, but rather preached freedom); he had multiple wives and said women had only a fraction of the brain of a male; he sinned and admitted that he would continue to sin (Jesus was sinless); and he preached holy war against infidels.

LIKE CHRISTIANITY, if you really want to contort the message, you can. In this case, if you really want to misinterpret the overall message, you can get "peace" out of the Koran. But if you apply principles of consistency (what's called in the Bible "in the mouths of two or three witnesses"), then Islam looks to me like a violent religion.

However, we must be very careful with this, and we only need look as far as Israel: Israel is anything BUT an Old Testament theocracy. Modern-day Israel is dominated by so-called "reform Jews." I would guess that 90% of American Jews are "reform Jews." That is to say, they do not accept the most basic teachings of their "holy book" the Torah. So our question with Islam is, are the vast majority of Muslims "reform Muslims" (backslidden Baptists, as we used to say of my church, or "Jack Mormons" in LDS circles), or are they "devout." If they are "devout," and if, as I suspect, Islam is indeed a violent religion, then the author is substantially right.

5 posted on 10/06/2001 5:57:36 PM PDT by LS
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To: LS
if you really want to contort the message

But the "core" message never changes. The more you are a to-the-letter "believer" the worse you become. As far as the Jews are concerned, I don't know about the reformed, conervative, Hassidic, etc. No idea what theological diffferences exist between them. Don't care either. But the fact is the the OT treats women as gullable and guilty of sin just as the Koran does. I detest all religious "fundamentalists," but absolutely despise "reformed" or "attenuated," or "protesting" believers -- people who spiced up their religious beliefs to make them into something less ridiculous than what the holy books make them.

Christianity and Judaism (two worlds apart) are separate subjects. From what I gather, Islam is the only major religion that professes conversion (submission) by force and treats anyone who is a non-believer, a Pagan (or a Jew) as less then human.

But thenkas for the info. I will look up Hadith. Have a link perhaps?

7 posted on 10/06/2001 6:21:01 PM PDT by kosta50
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To: LS
There's an additional consideration, as this article hints when the writers says that the first thing to go out the window in wartime is the truth. Namely, we need to use every propaganda weapon at our disposal, and one of the most important tools is "divide et impere," divide and conquer. We certainly need to do whatever we can to divide Shiite Muslims from Sunni Muslims, educated Muslims from uneducated, Wahabis from moderates, and so forth. But we all wonder, I am sure, whether Islam is not an intrinsically violent religion, a religion of implacable conquest--which is what a thousand years of history suggest, regardless of how "civilized" some of the ancient caliphs and Islamic philosophers may have been.

For seventy years the Communists conquered region after region of the world, and never gave any of what they had conquered back, until Solidarity and the fall of the Berlin Wall brought down the Soviet Union. But the Muslims have been doing it for more than a thousand years. They went into decline with the fall of the Turkish Empire, but even then they did not relinquish any substantial populations or territories. Now they are back in business again.

8 posted on 10/06/2001 6:24:12 PM PDT by Cicero
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To: LS
You know, I know a lot of people who call themselves Christian. If you ask them what they mean by Christian, they gaze vacantly off into the distance while twisting a lock of hair and muse, "Oh, you know... be nice to people... and... uhm... Just Say No to Drugs!"

I suspect there are a similarly secular breed of Muslims who think Islam means, "Oh... you know... be nice to people... and... uhm... don't eat pork!" and that's about it. I'm aware that these people are not the enemy. (Heck, most of them aren't even sure what direction Mecca is in and would turn in circles like an Irish Setter if you told them "time to pray!") And that's fine.

But those violent individuals who would kill for Islam are fundamentalists in the truest sense: these are the fundamentals of Islam and they are following them to the letter.

30 posted on 10/06/2001 7:54:30 PM PDT by Anamensis
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To: LS
I agree with the author. I believe most Muslims are anti-Christian, anti-Jewish, anti-Western, anti-American and believe in violently propagating their faith.

There may be few exceptions - educated Iranians, Turks for the most part, a few Jordanians, Berbers, etc. But I believe the vast majority of Arabs are our religious, political and theological enemies and will remain so as long as Wahhadism is the main sect in Arabian Islam. The REAL enemy are the sheeted pious bigots in the Saudi Sheikdom and neighboring states who use our petro dollars to bankroll maniacs like those of Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and Al Qaeda.

By the way, Palestinians HAVE a country - its called Jordan and they should all go there or somewhere a lot HOTTER.

38 posted on 10/06/2001 8:05:57 PM PDT by ZULU
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