NTSB Chief: Crash Probably Accident

Associated Press ^ | November 12, 2001 | By RON FOURNIER, AP White House Correspondent

[MeekOneGOP]

Thanks for the post/update, friend! I was not able to catch any of the pics today since my car was in the shop and I did not get to come home for lunch to catch the FOX News Channel for my updates! I appreciate you posting those here.

[ladyinred]

I appreciate that the word from the White House is so cautious. I much prefer that to the jumping to get out the word that it was an accident before they could possibly know. Too many fears that the airline industry would sink, and the stock market would take a huge nose dive?
I think the American people have proven we can take hearing the truth, no matter what it is.

[michigander]

Thanks for the post/update, friend!
You're most welcome! :-)

At least one of the engines, believed to be from the right side, fell intact on a gas-station parking lot. American Airlines said the left engine on Flight 587 was freshly overhauled and the right engine was about due for maintenance after nearly 10,000 hours of operation.

Alright, (supposedly) the old engine falls into the gas station. The outer skin of the housing appears to be largely (50%?) intact and barely appears scorched.
The newly rebuilt engine hits (very near) the house. Judging from the photo, the turbine blades appear to be largely intact (?, not sure if the best view of them is from the front or rear of the engine).
Both engines end up on land.
The main body of the plane ends up on land.
The tail section (minus the rudder) ends up in the bay (largely undamaged (?), appears to be sheered off the body of the aircraft).

---

???

[bootless]

Hi sinkspur,

Since you appear to have a level perspective on this, I'll address this one to you. :-) This from another commercial pilot on Avsig:

"Ok, here's my put. The engine guys will have sorted out whether an engine was failed and by what circumstance by noon tomorrow. The aircraft structures guys are going to have a bigger job sorting out possible aerodynamic wing damage (e.g. El AL)and the Systems guys an even bigger job to sort out the hydraulics and backups to control surfaces.

Seeing the Vertical stab without visible damage really caught me by surprise. I noted that the rudders were missing as well. I guess I'll have to wait for the Public Hearing for that explanation.

The first thing I would go for is the condition of the fan rub strips and blade tips (tells a lot about gyro loading and running vs failed engines).

The engine shown at the gas station sure had a good looking nose spinner which had to be attached to a good fan disk.

The CF6 80 C2 sure has lots of experience and nothing even remotely close to such an outcome, so I'm sure that we we'll get some surprises here.

Look for tomorrow night's NTSB briefing to close down the speculations a good bit as they report what the engines and nacelles look like.

FYI...

[bootless]

With all due respect, the plane did not explode in the air. The engines separated from the plane, and it crashed.

[Native American Female Vet]

Thanks for the pics. Very interesting

[Native American Female Vet]

Thanks for the pics. Very interesting

[jwalsh07]

The CF6 80 C2 sure has lots of experience and nothing even remotely close to such an outcome, so I'm sure that we we'll get some surprises here.

Read this, its a story about a CF6 80 C2 that want kablooie. NTSB report

[bootless]

Also just heard that about 90% of the pax were Dominican.

[Native American Female Vet]

Thank you

[bootless]

Why no communication? Because of the cheapskate airline people, cockpit crews were cut from three to two people. With at least one engine having departed the wing, it probably took all the strength and concentration of the two pilots to give the plane a fighting chance of maybe getting to the ground safely. Aviate, navigate, communicate. The CVR is running, they know it will record whatever's going on. Flights in trouble have been lost because the pilot chose to talk, rather than fly. This is not unusual.

[bootless]

Scuttlebutt is that the most common "last words" aboard the glass cockpit Airbuses (Airbusi?) are: "What's it doing now?"

[bootless]

Thanks for the map. For the people squawking about the departure path, it took the path it did because it's straight outbound, avoiding the wildlife area, which is S.o.P. Nothing unusual there.

[bootless]

Ack! I don't have Adobe installed right now. Got a précis of the report, or a link? Or, if you have the date, I'll look it up on the NTSB.gov site.

[Anticommie]

This is at least the 4th crash of an aircraft lifting out of JFK (EgyptAir, Swissair, TWA).

It seems JFK developed something like Bermuda Syndrom, or there is more simple and logical explanation: Thousands of Midestern nationals living in NY and New Jersey.

[jwalsh07]

National Transportation Safety Board

Washington, D.C. 20594
Safety Recommendation
Date: December 12, 2000
In reply refer to: A-00-121 through -124

Honorable Jane F. Garvey
Administrator
Federal Aviation Administration
Washington, D.C. 20591

In this letter, the National Transportation Safety Board recommends that the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) take action to address safety issues that were identified during its investigation of an uncontained engine failure 1 that occurred at Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, on September 22, 2000, as a result of cracking and rupture of a high pressure turbine (HPT) stage 1 disk 2 in a General Electric (GE) CF6-80C2B2 engine (see figure 1).

Background
On September 22, 2000, a US Airways Boeing 767-2B7(ER) airplane, N654US, equipped with GE CF6-80C2B2 engines, experienced an uncontained failure of the HPT stage 1 disk in the No. 1 engine during a high-power ground run for maintenance at Philadelphia International Airport, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Because of a report of an in-flight loss of oil, US Airways mechanics had replaced a seal on the No. 1 engine’s integral drive generator and were performing the high-power engine run to check for any oil leakage. For the maintenance check, the mechanics had taxied the airplane to a remote taxiway on the airport and had performed three runups for which no anomalies were noted.

During the fourth excursion to high power, at around 93 percent N1 rpm, 3 there was a loud explosion followed by a fire under the left wing of the airplane. The mechanics shut down the engines, discharged both fire bottles into the No. 1 engine nacelle, and evacuated the airplane. Although both fire bottles were discharged, the fire continued until it was extinguished by airport fire department personnel. The No. 1 engine and the airplane sustained substantial damage. 4 The three mechanics were not injured.

This incident raises serious safety concerns because, if it had occurred during flight rather than on the ground during maintenance, the airplane might not have been able to maintain safe flight. Examination of the airplane revealed that a portion of the HPT stage 1 disk penetrated the left wing just inboard of the No. 1 engine pylon. Investigators determined that this portion of the disk, which is approximately 140 square inches and 45 pounds, penetrated a dry bay, made a 1-inch-wide vertical cut through the lower half of the forward wing spar, and penetrated a fuel tank before exiting through the top of the wing and passing over the fuselage. Examination of the engine revealed that the disk rupture split the engine in half, leaving the rear of the engine joined to the front only by the fan midshaft. The disk had separated from the shaft and was completely missing from the engine. Two pieces of the disk, which amounted to about two-thirds of it, and three blade slot posts were recovered.

5 Although an extensive search was conducted, the remaining one-third of the ruptured disk (the piece that passed through the wing) was not recovered. Trajectory analysis performed by the Safety Board indicates that it may have landed in the Delaware River, which is adjacent to the airport.

[Bounceback]

"Let's all call it an accident. It's plausible isn't it? It will infuriate Ben Laden if he is responsible. If another "accident" occurs next week, then the least of our worries will be looking foolish."

Ah, but what if it was an accident, and then Bin Ladin claims responsibility. Our government's dilemma is that it will be damned if it does or damned if it does not declare this an accident.

[Time Traveller]

I think Laden would have to claim responsibility right now to put our Government on the defensive. If he waits until after the U.S. government constructs a plausible argument he didn't, they can just call him a liar. Also, to have any credibility Laden would have to say exactly how it was done, not just claim responsibility.

[Committed]

Nice to see a few of the old members around.....

Still....

Committed