Posted on 11/17/2001 5:11:48 AM PST by omenseer
We already have cameras springing-up in public spaces; once a national ID card becomes reality, the day will follow when electronic sensors spring-up on every corner to monitor every move we make.
Never in history would a government have had such control over its citizens.
And while this may not be a problem for the law-abiding ruled by a government of the people--what would happen if our government is one day usurped by a tyrant?
You think America could never be ruled by a Stalin?
How many of you thought 911 could never happen?
The reason, however, for my questions is based on the fact that the Bible simply does not support a pre-tribulational rapture (We do, actually, believe in the Rapture -it's the timing we disagree about). Considering the fact that the disp/pre-mill position is, by far, the minority position of (orthodox) Christian Eschatology (Both on a historical level and on a current percentage level.) it is evident that the disp/pre-mill position is certainly not clear, and at best questionable. There seems to be this confidence among the disp/pre-mills that they need not be prepared for the 'great tribulation' since they will be raptured away before it occurs. This is dangerous, because if the disp/pre-mill position is wrong, then these faithfull christians who accept this theology will not be prepared for what may happen to them.
Now to my questions:
1. Please show me where the Bible states that the "last trumpet" spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is not really the last trumpet.
2. Please show me where the Bible states that there is a delay or a period of time (1950 years now and counting) between the 69th 'seven' and the 70th 'seven' spoken of in Daniel 9.
3. Please explain to me which of the two millennia spoken of in Rev. 20 is the one where Jesus shall reign on earth on the throne of David.
4. Please show me why, when the Bible states in Rev. 3:10 that "I will keep thee from the hour of temptation" (The greek word for temptation in this passage is identical to the greek word used for temptation in the Lords prayer found in Matthew 6:13 and Luke 11:4), this means the believers will be removed from the earth before the 'great tribulation' and not that God will keep his faithful from temptation (as the passage simply says) as they requested him in the Lord's Prayer??
5. Why does Paul warn the gentile Thessalonian congregation in 2 Thessalonians 2 that "...the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him (i.e. the rapture), That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,..." if the rapture was to take place before the man of sin be revealed??
6. Why did the theology of dispensational Pre-millennialism never once occur to the Chruch for 1800 years (170 years ago)?
I'll start here and patiently wait for your reply.
In Christ,
Jean
Ah...but as a "Pre-wrather" I worry about the possibility that pre-tribs might be mistakenly lulled into taking the mark by saying "Oh no, this isn't the mark...how do I know? Because the rapture is gonna happen first, that's how I know..."
Why type when a web page covers this?
Here is a second page
2. Please show me where the Bible states that there is a delay or a period of time (1950 years now and counting) between the 69th 'seven' and the 70th 'seven' spoken of in Daniel 9.
Daniel 9:26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27: And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Show me any time period where this 'Week of Years' happened, where in the middle of the week, after 3 1/2 years, we see this happening? (The Underlined)Because we know we haven't, it has to be in the future. Notice this also speaks of the QAnti-Christ, the man who will cause all this to happen. Has he appeared yet? The FINAL Anti-Christ? THE Anti-Christ? No. So, this has to be a future event.
3. Please explain to me which of the two millennia spoken of in Rev. 20 is the one where Jesus shall reign on earth on the throne of David.
Here is one page
Here is another page with your answers
4. Please show me why, when the Bible states in Rev. 3:10 that "I will keep thee from the hour of temptation" (The greek word for temptation in this passage is identical to the greek word used for temptation in the Lords prayer found in Matthew 6:13 and Luke 11:4), this means the believers will be removed from the earth before the 'great tribulation' and not that God will keep his faithful from temptation (as the passage simply says) as they requested him in the Lord's Prayer??
Here is where I disagree with many dispensationalists. I believe we are already in the church of Laodicea, not the Church of Philadelphia. This keeping from temptation they are kept from, is the present apostasy Christianity is in now. Notice, it is called a Church, that means it is before the Tribulation, where the Church will be gone. Notice also, Jesus is standing OUTSIDE, asking to come in! That means that this church age spoken of here, is apostate, and mostly unsaved, yet, because it is called a Church, it has to be BEFORE the tribulation. We are living in that church age, I believe.
5. Why does Paul warn the gentile Thessalonian congregation in 2 Thessalonians 2 that " ...the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him (i.e. the rapture), That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,..." if the rapture was to take place before the man of sin be revealed??
The falling away here, is also the word for APOSTASY, a departure from the faith. Notice also how Paul also assured them, that since the Man of Sin had not arrived, they were not in the end times. Also, it sounds like they think they missed the rapture, and that worried them! Maybe they thought the persecution they were suffering was the tribulation itself!
6. Why did the theology of dispensational Pre-millennialism never once occur to the Chruch for 1800 years (170 years ago)?
It did, it just didnt have a name for it. All throughout the New Testament, what is the theme concerning the return of Christ? One theme is the strongest: The return is imminent, it can happen at any time. When, we don't know, but it can happen ANY TIME!! An excellent book on this is by Renald Showers, "Maranatha! Our Lord Come!". It is a definitive study showing through Scripture, that the return of Christ, and being taken away to paradise, was what the early church believed.
Otherwise, where is the teaching that we should hide in caves, gather ammo, defend ourselves, stock up on food...you see? None of that is taught, it is taught that we are to live as if Jesus will return in the next second. Nowhere are we taught, except in Revelation 3: 14: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16: So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17: Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19: As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
That is the only section of Scripture that tells us that in this church age, we should expect persecution as a whole, not just because of a Nero, but because of the state of the Church! and that is a sobering thought!
Applied Digital Solutions (ADSX) is working on a tracking/monitoring system that runs off body heat.
Implants are just one step away.
Daniel 9:23, 25 = Neh 1:1-6 (not a typo, I am indeed referencing chapter 1)
The dots connect at Luke 4:16-19.
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate [cf. Lev 26], even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
3 1/2 year ministry; 3 1/2 years days of vengeance.
I am anxious for nothing, Preech - for these things are written that I may KNOW that I have eternal life.
By the way, who the hell are you to question Rumsfeld's integrity in releasing this picture?
Why type when a web page covers this?
Here is a second page
Why? Because I asked you to answer the question personally and because these web pages also fail to answer my question.
I will repeat my question, but in a different way.
1 Corinthians 15:52 specifically states nothing about a 'gathering together of the elect' or a 'rapture'. 1 Corinthians 15:52 states only that (w/ vs 51) we will be changed in a twinkling of an eye. It does not say we will be raptured in the twinkling of an eye. It is speaking here of the resurrection. It is telling us, that in a twinkling of an eye we will be raised with our glorified bodies that are like Christ's glorified bodies. "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed. No where does 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52 say anything about the rapture. This entire chapter is dealing with the resurrection of the body. Furthermore, 1 Corinthians 15:52 says this will happen "at the last trumpet". It does not say, 'the second to the last'. The passage states that this is the last trumpet. This poses a problem for disp/pre-mills because Matthew 24 states that after the 'great tribulation' "31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect...
To my understanding, the disp/pre-mill position is that the trumpet spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is the last trumpet for the Church. Again, 1 Corinthians does not say this, so my question again is, where does the Bible (not some guy's web page) state that this is not really the last trumpet, but only the last trumpet for the church. I ask, because it seems if we take the Bible literally, for what it says, then the last trumpet is the last trumpet.
Question 2...
Show me any time period where this 'Week of Years' happened, where in the middle of the week, after 3 1/2 years, we see this happening? (The Underlined)Because we know we haven't, it has to be in the future. Notice this also speaks of the QAnti-Christ, the man who will cause all this to happen. Has he appeared yet? The FINAL Anti-Christ? THE Anti-Christ? No. So, this has to be a future event.
Better than that, I let Daniel 9 show you what the '70th seven' is:
"26. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off..."
Daniel 9 says that "Messiah (shall) be cut off." after the 7 'sevens' and 62 'sevens' (7 + 62 = 69 -one more 'seven' to go). The 69 'sevens' are already completed when the Messiah is cut off. This is the beginning of the 70th 'seven'. This is clearly a reference to Christ's accomplishments on the cross.
"27. And he (Christ) shall confirm (hebrew:gabar = 'strengthen') the covenant with many for one week (the 70th 'seven') : and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
So we have Daniel 9 itself defining the lenth of the 70th 'seven': from when the Messiah is cut off (the cross) until the consumation (the End of the World).
Of course, if one were to assume the disp./pre-mill position is correct and that these 'sevens' are a period of 7 years, that may be difficult thing to justify. So I understand the need to make this passage say something it does not. The problem is, Daniel 9 defines for us when the 70th 'seven' is: from the cross to the end of the world.
So, again, my question is, where does Daniel 9 show that there is a period of time between the 69th 'seven' and the 70th 'seven'?
Question 3...
"Here is one page
Here is another page with your answers"
Again, this is a nice try. But these pages do not answer my question. So, I will rephrase this question as well:
Revelation 20 speaks of two millennia. One millennium happens in the past: "4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them (the greek reads 'a verdict was given to them') : and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which (the greek here reads: 'and those who...' which distinguishes a different group of 'souls') had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (past tense) and reigned (past tense) with Christ a thousand years...6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall (future event) be priests of God and of Christ, and shall (future event) reign with him a thousand years."
In other words, John sees two different millennia. One millennium from John's perspective in this vision is past, finished, completed and contains "souls" (not necessarily a referrence to deceased individuals. Undoubtedly some are dead ("beheaded"). But this could be a group of individuals consisting of both the living and the dead. The passage claims (esp. in the Greek, KJV, NKJV, ASB) they "lived" not that they 'came to life' or 'lived again' (as in the NIV and others). Could this be a reference to those having faith in Christ already obtaining salvation? (see Matthew 4:4, Acts 17:28, Galatians 5:25 for starters)??) who liveed and reigned with Christ, and a millennium from John's perspective yet to be.
So my question remains, taking Revelation 20 literally, for what it says, which millennium, the former or the latter, pertains to the disp/pre-mill theology of Christ ruling on earth on David's throne??
Question 4...
Finally, an answer. You disagree with the many disp/pre-mills on this issue. However, again, you are reading into the passage your assumptions.
Notice, it is called a Church, that means it is before the Tribulation, where the Church will be gone.
My point in all this is to have you show me Biblically where the Church will be removed before the tribulation. You are simply assuming it is so. You have not yet demonstrated such.
Question 5...
"Here is where I disagree with many dispensationalists. I believe we are already in the church of Laodicea, not the Church of Philadelphia. This keeping from temptation they are kept from, is the present apostasy Christianity is in now. Notice, it is called a Church, that means it is before the Tribulation, where the Church will be gone. Notice also, Jesus is standing OUTSIDE, asking to come in! That means that this church age spoken of here, is apostate, and mostly unsaved, yet, because it is called a Church, it has to be BEFORE the tribulation. We are living in that church age, I believe.
You again failed to answer the question. To my understanding, according to Dispensational Pre-millennialism, the man of sin/ the son of perdition will be revealed during the tribulation. However, 2 Thessalonians 2:3 teaches us that the Day of Christ ("our gathering together unto him -vs. 1)"comes after the man of sin has been revealed. Now, this would make sense only to disp/pre-mills if this were the "gathering together unto him spoken of in Matthew 24:31 which, according to disp/pre-mills, is the gathering of the Jews 7 years after the Church had been gathered. However, the Thesselonians were indeed gentiles. This is the same group Paul instructed as to the rapture, according to the disp/pre-mills, of the Church.
My question remains: Where does the Bible state that the 'gathering together' of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is a different episode than the 'gathering together' which Paul writes to the very same people in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3??
Question 6...
"It did, it just didnt have a name for it." If so, then I would suspect you could show me creeds, books, writings of the Church fathers before the 1800's which teach this.
[snip quote of Rev 3:14-19] "That is the only section of Scripture that tells us that in this church age, we should expect persecution as a whole"
By no means! Reading Matthew 24 for what it says (i.e. not reading into the passage your disp/pre-mill assumptions) directly tells us we will be involved in the tribulation!
"22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened (i.e. the elect/church is still there. It doesn't say they were removed. It simply says for their sake, those days shall be shortened) . 24. For there shall arise false Christ, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect (again, the elect/chosen/church is still here. It is not possible for them to be decieved because they are in the hand of God -Romans 8:31-39- not because they weren't there. The passage simply does not say that!)
John 16:33 "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation : but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."
Romans 12:12 "Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer
Again, I patiently await your (personal) response to these questions.
In Christ,
Jean
If I'm not mistaken, there is a little matter of swearing allegiance to a Leader of some kind, i.e. the AntiChrist. A National ID card, retinal scan or thumbprint wouldn't qualify if they were implemented now, as the AntiChrist has not yet made his appearance. It's when he says you must take this mark in order to be able to buy or sell that it becomes an issue of your eternal fate. We're not there yet.
Ah, Carl Sanders. Why, I wondered, did the hair on the back of my neck go up when I heard that name? So, I did a quick search too, and was quickly reminded:
From the desk of John S. Torell - "Carl Sanders"
and...
From the Desk of John S. Torell - UPDATE ON CARL SANDERS
and...
Not every messenger is as he presents himself to be. In this case, the messenger is evidently a multiply-confessed (multiple times to multiple people) liar, with a history of lying, confessing to the lies (when caught in them and confronted with the lies), who then went on to lie again, and again, and again.
What is sad is that the number of links touting this guy is far and away greater in number and prominence than the few that shine the light on the man behind the curtain. And, from looking at the Google summaries, I get the impression that his claimed feats grew by leaps and bounds since he was confronted in the mid-1990s. One link had him tied in with "ET Technology", and had him claiming that his (imaginary) chips could be "picked up by satellite" -- a notion that anyone with even a cursory understanding of RF generation and propagation characteristics will immediately recognize as bunk. (Even the "Digital Angel" hucksters eventually dropped that absurd story.)
It's sad that the church is troubled by this sort of person, but it's nothing new, and even sadder, will likely continue to be the case in the future. There are people who learn how to scratch the "itching ears", and make a comfortable income in the process.
You have just described how one of the great institutions of the United States (the Christian church), was feminized. The "present day" so-called "conservative" church doesn't focus on "doctrine" as being of first importance. It is emotion driven and its focus is "experience" over doctrine.
It truly is, "anti-intellectual, anti-historic, and anti-creedal".
It is full of illogical, religious zealots that mispreresent God and make him a laughingstock.
Thanks, Ethan, for this sound-minded post, and the links you provided for those who are willing to "prove all things" in light of the Scriptures.
This is the company that projectile-spewed a bunch of fright-spew about their "Digital Angel", and had half the world in a tizzy about a device that could supposedly be tracked by GPS satellites. Nevermind the fact that GPS satellites couldn't even track a star gone supernova -- because they're beacons, not sensors -- but, people wanted to be frightened, and that outfit gave them all they needed to do an impressive (and collective) Mother of All Chicken Little impersonations.
Eventually the outfit toned down they hyper-claims, and fell from the limelight. If they're now touting that ten micro amp battery, I feel sorry for them. Please, someone come up with a list of useful devices that can get by without drawing more than ten microamps. I'll be surprised if even a digital wristwatch can run on that. But hey, maybe it can.
To put it in perspective -- watts = amps times volts. They say they're coming out with a three volt battery. (Wow, what kind of advanced technology does it take to slap two 1.5 volt cells in series?) So, how many watts will it put out? Three times ten millionths of an amp. Do the math.
How far would a signal powered by that infinitessimal power supply travel? Not much beyond the skin, if even that far.
There are plenty of things going on in the world to curl your hair and give you the creeps. This is not one of them.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.