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Mark of the Beast on Fast Track
11-17-01 | omenseer

Posted on 11/17/2001 5:11:48 AM PST by omenseer

Bush briefly discussed the ID card option with British Prime Minister Tony Blair, according to insiders. "I can tell you this, the president is very reluctant [to issue a national ID card]," a top White House source said on Sunday. "But we must look at all options." Just as House Democratic Leader Richard Gephardt [D-MO] says Congress should quickly move to open debate on security measures such as a national ID card. "We are in a new world," Gephardt said. "This event will change the balance between freedom and security." The Clinton Administration then extracted the various pieces from the various bills, two of which were illegally passed, and assigned the task to implementing a national drivers license (a clone of the European Union national ID card) to the National Transportation Safety Board. The internal passport will go into effect on October 1, 1999. In 1996 when Congress passed the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act. certain guidelines found in Section 656 (b) of the act. Federal agencies will be required to prohibit the use of state drivers licenses beginning Oct. 1, 2000, unless they comply with the federal standards. The new licenses must use the Social Security number as the driver's license number, for example. The act also calls for digitized biometric information to be a part of each license, or "smart card." Former Secretary of Defense William Cohen said Americans will be forced to make "choices between security and civil liberties." NBC's Tom Brokaw said, "We're going to have to reconsider a lot of our freedoms because of our attack." Representive Frank D. Lucas (R-OK) said, "If we were going to be absolutely safe, we'd have to restrict people's freedoms to the point that it wouldn't be America anymore."

TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Free Republic
KEYWORDS: billofrights
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Well, I don't know. What page are you on?
51 posted on 11/17/2001 7:45:21 AM PST by babylonian
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To: anniegetyourgun
"As a pre-tribulationist, I'll not worry my pretty little head about it. I don't plan to be around here for those years.

Amen annie! I'm with ya!!

52 posted on 11/17/2001 7:45:33 AM PST by itsinthebag
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To: babylonian
That it already took place in those days. The days Christ said it would.
MATT 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place.
53 posted on 11/17/2001 7:48:40 AM PST by NATE4"ONE NATION"
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To: anniegetyourgun
The USDA hasn't required them YET but Micro chips are highly recomended and I suspect will be mandatory shortly in all Kennel dogs. So far I think the work great, but I won't be shooting myself up; ever.
54 posted on 11/17/2001 7:57:44 AM PST by Emmanual_Goldstein16
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To: anniegetyourgun
"As a pre-tribulationist, I'll not worry my pretty little head about it. I don't plan to be around here for those years."

You beat me to this one. Right - there's no reason for worry to those that are in Christ Jesus, with the exception of worrying about those people who are not.

55 posted on 11/17/2001 7:57:57 AM PST by Paulie
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To: Emmanual_Goldstein16
That's if the animal rights whackos don't eliminate us breeder/handlers altogether. It is, after all, a mission of theirs.....
56 posted on 11/17/2001 7:59:25 AM PST by anniegetyourgun
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In Matthew 24, Jesus is talking future, and is talking to ALL Christians, not just those with Him at the moment.
57 posted on 11/17/2001 8:04:10 AM PST by babylonian
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Your vitriolic response reveals your heart. If that was supposed to be your Christ-like response, then you're light that is to be shining is equivalent to a tiny twilnkle bulb.

When the Bible says there will be a mountain split, I take it to mean that the mountain will be split. When it says that Jesus will return in the flesh, I interpret it to mean what it plainly teaches...that Jesus will return in the flesh. When it says that Jesus will reign on the earth while satan is bound, for one thousand years. I take it mean exactly that...not some liberal "oh Jesus is reigning in men's hearts"(If you believe that balogna, you've obviously never read Jer. 17:9). When the Bible says there will be a mark, then, then I take it for what it says...a mark...a distinguishing characteristic(to wit, a retnal scan and a thumbprint qualify). Fairly simple. We needn't make up fairytale allegories to accomidate any predisposed doctrines, or shallow belief in Him who is able to create ex nihilo. This posture is reminiscent of the Liar's first deception..."Hath God really said...". He just loves to cause us to doubt the clear Word of God. Once the process of allegorical interpretation begins, it becomes selective as to what is literal and what is allegory, leaving the Word to be comprimised by those who desire to read into the text (usually as a control mechanism), rather than allowing the text to speak plainly for itself.

If you choose to interpret the Bible in your mystical allegorical manner, you're welcome to it. The result of this is usually reducing the Omnipotent One to the tiny box that accomidates your cosmological views and leaves little room for Him to work in and through you as He desires to. Basically, walking by sight rather than faith.

...and yes...I'll keep my guns handy, thank you very much. Not that it's any of your businees! Maybe you can defend yourself with your million mom march flag.

58 posted on 11/17/2001 8:06:57 AM PST by woollyone
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To: Singapore_Yank
An excellent link, thanks for putting it up.
59 posted on 11/17/2001 8:07:20 AM PST by Lucky
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To: Texas Yellow Rose
"Literal or spiritual seals? You decide."


60 posted on 11/17/2001 8:08:12 AM PST by woollyone
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To: woollyone
61 posted on 11/17/2001 8:13:47 AM PST by babylonian
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To: woollyone
Your people capitolize on fantasy and I am the mystical liberal?!!!!
You don't know me. Too bad you know your teachers more than your own Bible!!
62 posted on 11/17/2001 8:16:31 AM PST by NATE4"ONE NATION"
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To: babylonian
Read Matt 23 and 24 and tell me how you came up with that. Revelation declared it to happen soon "...which must soon take place..." John declared the people of that day were already in the last hour. Hebrew declared it also and the spirit of the anti-christ also.

The language Christ used to tell of the Tribulation was used over again in the Old Testament prophecies but it always was a declaration of Gods judgement on Israel or a surrounding nation, which always took place within the generation of the prophet speaking it. Somehow you guys pull this same language, put on 21st century bliders and try to interpret this stuff. The best Biblical interpreter is the Bible itself. I expact the pattern continued for the Apostles as it was for the prophets; and the blood of the prophets was required on the heads of "those" Pharasees (as Jesus said in Matt 23).
63 posted on 11/17/2001 8:23:33 AM PST by NATE4"ONE NATION"
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To: woollyone; NATE4"ONE NATION"
If you have not yet read "Figures of Speech Used In The Bible" by E. W. Bullinger, then I suggest you add it to your library.

Click for link

This outstanding work has stood for about a hundred years, virtually unchallenged in scope or scholarship. The seminal and definitive work in this field of study. Figures of speech are used throughout the Bible. It is unfortunate when they are interpreted literally.

64 posted on 11/17/2001 9:16:08 AM PST by Texas Yellow Rose
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To: omenseer
I believe there is demand to WORSHIP the Beast that goes along with this mark. This title is a lie.
65 posted on 11/17/2001 9:24:48 AM PST by mercy
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To: Texas Yellow Rose
I would absolutely love to check it out but I cannot get that link to work for me. Can you spell the address?
66 posted on 11/17/2001 9:36:49 AM PST by NATE4"ONE NATION"
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To: MissAmericanPie
Oh .... very good. Something within me resonates with your words. Amen. Like someone else said here I'm a 'pan' tribulationist. Never has mattered to me. If I was guessing I'd spose that going through the tribulation 'in the body' would be the most likely scenario. My earthly spiritual father once said "What if the rapture takes place in the natural? ie all the Christians are taken out and shot?" Never forgot that. Somehow the US has to be taken out of the way for the anti-christ to come to power. Could be the core of the US is 'taken up'. Could be that the US is 'taken out'. Could be that we succumb to our own idolatry (although recent events seem to show a real revival so this is hard to invision).

I can't think that ommy's the anti-christ but I do think he is a fore-runner. Unless the end times prophecies have been misunderstod wholesale we will have to see much greater unrest in the ME than we now have. Is it right around the corner??? Or twenty years in the future???

67 posted on 11/17/2001 9:54:22 AM PST by mercy
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To: anniegetyourgun

Texas Yellow Rose

I have read and studied the Word, Jer - and after Rev. 3, I'm not here anymore. So, I don't worry about being forced to take the mark.
22 posted on 11/17/01 9:37 AM Central by anniegetyourgun

"Revelation 3:10, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." 


Psalms 95:8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Matthew 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
Mark 14:38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.
Luke 4:13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
Luke 22:40 And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.
Luke 22:46 And said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.
1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Galatians 4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
Hebrews 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Revelation 3:10-13, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."


5083 tereo {tay-reh'-o}
from teros (a watch, perhaps akin to 2334); TDNT - 8:140,1174; v
AV - keep 57, reserve 8, observe 4, watch 2, preserve 2, keeper 1,
hold fast 1; 75
1) to attend to carefully, take care of
1a) to guard
1b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is
1c) to observe
1d) to reserve: to undergo something

2334 theoreo {theh-o-reh'-o}
from a derivative of 2300 (perhaps by add. of 3708);
TDNT - 5:315,706; v
AV - see 40, behold 11, perceive 4, consider 1, look on 1; 57
1) to be a spectator, look at, behold
1a) to view attentively, take a view of, survey
1a1) to view mentally, consider
2) to see
2a) to perceive with the eyes, to enjoy the presence of one
2b) to discern, descry
2c) to ascertain, find out by seeing

2300 theaomai {theh-ah'-om-ahee}
a prolonged form of a primary verb; TDNT - 5:315,706; v
AV - see 20, behold 2, look 1, look upon 1; 24
1) to behold, look upon, view attentively, contemplate (often
used of public shows)
1a) of important persons that are looked on with admiration
2) to view, take a view of
2a) in the sense of visiting, meeting with a person
3) to learn by looking, to see with the eyes, to perceive

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68 posted on 11/17/2001 9:59:30 AM PST by Texas Yellow Rose
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I wonder why... it worked for me. Here's the link.

69 posted on 11/17/2001 10:02:55 AM PST by Texas Yellow Rose
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You may just try clicking here

70 posted on 11/17/2001 10:05:11 AM PST by Texas Yellow Rose
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To: NATE4"ONE NATION"; oldglory
"The more the Hal Lindseyites take this stuff hyper-litteral, the longer Christians will remain in the minority in this nation!!"

Follow the "pop-culture religion" money. "Fear sells" books and tapes, and gets the biggest audiences glued to TBN, and other religious kook outlets. The outlandish, aberrant and heretical "ministries" are the ones that rake in the biggest "luv offerins".

The [shallow-minded] "useful idiots" spoken of by Karl Marx, aka the "suckers", spoken of by Barnum, are not just "used" by power/money hungry politicians and carnival barkers, they are also fodder for the charlatans in the religion "industry".

71 posted on 11/17/2001 10:17:05 AM PST by Matchett-PI
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To: Matchett-PI
Absolutely Right
72 posted on 11/17/2001 10:19:01 AM PST by NATE4"ONE NATION"
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To: Texas Yellow Rose
73 posted on 11/17/2001 10:20:14 AM PST by NATE4"ONE NATION"
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To: omenseer
74 posted on 11/17/2001 10:23:09 AM PST by Aurelius
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To: 4wvueers
It may be at first, but the biblical language makes it clear that the mark of the beast, the number of his name, or his name in the hand or forehead is what condemns. That isn't a social security card.
75 posted on 11/17/2001 10:30:20 AM PST by DittoJed2
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To: omenseer
76 posted on 11/17/2001 11:07:15 AM PST by PaxMacian
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To: mercy
Ommy like Hitler is a warning of who is to come, they are examples and templates. We are told to watch, so I watch and this is what I see.

I don't know if it is 20 years or 100, I base that on the fact that people will seek death and it will flee from them. Pretty freaky situation when you can't die. Science is saying that the children of the babies born today will be able to pick out how long they want to live. So if this inability to die is a medical break through or supernatural remains to be seen. Also the anti-Christ is able to create a living image, this as a stretch, could be television, but I am thinking more along the lines of cloning or something of that nature that is in the distant future. These have to be either supernatural or medical break throughs we just don't know yet, we have to keep watching the puzzle pieces fall into place. I said last year or at the first of this year that things were going to begin to happen with such speed that we would not recognize America in ten years. Looks like I need to revise that downwards to six or less.

The world is going to undergo some huge changes. I think Russia and China will become our allies in the future, Russia for sure, and they will be sincere about it while still growing their military power. After the display of our power in the Middle East all nations will rethink their postitions in regard to us. It will be like all of mankind has awakened to a new era of enlightenment and cooperation. There will be trouble spots, but things are going to start looking up big time for globalists. The US may become as hooked on it's own powers of strength and pursuasion as a junkie on heroine. The oppression of the globalist government is not one that is physical so much as spiritual, the mentality of the hive, what is good for all is good for one, what is good for business is good for all. "There is a way that seems right to a man, but it's end is destruction". We are told the prophets of old would have loved to have seen this day, I keep telling myself that to reassurance myself that it is all under control while the world winds it's way to it's logical conclusion.

77 posted on 11/17/2001 11:32:18 AM PST by MissAmericanPie
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To: DB
Getting a retnal scan is hardly accepting the "mark".

After this all takes place ,and they still still think they haven't done enough to invade our privacy,what's next?A rectum scan?

78 posted on 11/17/2001 11:51:57 AM PST by Uncle Meat
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First off, I'm not certain what "teachers" you're speaking of. You make such a bold accusation about me and know nothing of me, yet defend yourself with the "you don't know me" comment. So, mr/ms smartypants...tell me all you know about my teachers...if you can...or shut up.

You sir/ma'am are an inconsiderate and ignorant ass. You've responded with nothing but sarcasm and then demand some respect? You have forgotten that "knowledge puffs up" and you Mr/ms. pufferfish are a fine example of how Christians are not to behave.

It's one thing to read the Bible, it's another thing to live the Bible. Your lack of Biblical character refutes your words.

79 posted on 11/17/2001 12:01:27 PM PST by woollyone
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To: woollyone
Please ... get a grip. You have taken this way too personally.
80 posted on 11/17/2001 12:35:52 PM PST by Texas Yellow Rose
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To: itsinthebag
Earlier thread on national ID card.

Eagle Forum should have more info on them As would The one we defeated was geared so you couldn't bank, work, fly or numerous other activities with out the National ID card.

81 posted on 11/17/2001 1:12:00 PM PST by GailA
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To: Matchett-PI
While the pre-tribulational, pre-millennial dispensationalist scheme has certaily caught in American Christianity, vis. Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye's popularizing (Late Great Planet Earth; Left Behind serial offerings), and within the 20th century promoted on a more scholarly basis by Lewis Chafer and Dallas Seminary and others, who in turn took it from John Scofield and his Scofield Study Bible, it is a novel view of eschatology. A novel view that is having less and less support among even some dispensationalists...

It is not based upon historic Reformational theology in any sense, and is completely at odds with covenantal Reformed theology. Point of fact, it was *never* taught, believed, or even hinted at, by anyone in the historic Christian faith.

John Nelson Darby of the Plymouth Brethren (circa A.D. 1830s) literally invented it, though others in the Plymouth Brethren sect certainly contributed to its formulation (e.g., A.N. Groves; B.W. Newton; W.H. Dorman; E. Cronin; and J.G. Bullett). Some dispensationalists chafe at this, but the fact is dispensationalism is a direct product of the Plymouth Brethren movement in England in the early 19th century. It isn't found in the New Testament; it isn't found in the Church fathers; it isn't found in the universal creeds of the historic Church; it isn't found in Augustine; it isn't found in any of the great Reformation creeds and statements of faith; it isn't found in Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Knox, Spurgeon, Dabney, Machen, well, I hope the reader gets the point.

I am not saying it was a minority view, or a hated view, or even considered a heretical view--it simply didn't exist until J.N Darby concocted it in the 1830s.

It didn't exist in any form in the United States until circa 1864; Darby graced the United States with his presence.

Darby so impressed Dr. James Brooks of the 16th and Walnut Avenue Presbyterian Church in St. Louis that Dr. Brooks is considered the "father of American dispensationalism."

One of Dr. Brooks' students was named C.I. Scofield. So, essentially, the historical beginnings may be rightly traced, literally, from JN Darby, to James Brooks, to C.I. Scofield, to Lewis Chafer and subsequently being churned out at Dallas Seminary, founded by Dr. Chafer.

What made it "take off," so to speak? During this circa of history, the American denomoniations were being heavily corrupted by liberalism, in the wake of Chuck Darwin's philosophical piece, Origins of Species (Darwin wasn't a scientist, but a failed divinity student--his Origins is one of the books that everyone talks about but never is not a work of science, but is simply the [largely borrowed...] musings of Darwin), and the cultural impact it had.

By 1923, liberalism and historic Christian teaching came to a real confrontation at Princeton Seminary (at one time one of the great defenders of the historic Christian faith). The General Assembly in 1923 resulted in J. Gresham Machen and other scholars from Princeton breaking from the school and forming Westminster Theological Seminary, September 25, 1929. A truly great educational institution.

The Reformed scholars of the school defended historic Christian teaching against the anti-christian liberalism that was taking over much of the American church. The works they published defended the fundamentals of the faith, such as the inspiration of Scripture, the Virgin birth of Christ, the bodily Resurrection, the divinity of Christ and the substitutionary atonement of Christ. Those that held to historic Christian teaching were then labeled "fundamentalists" (it should be carefully noted that these "fundamentalists" should not be equated with or confused with the current dispensationalist fundamentalists, as they are strikingly different, whereas the so-called present-day fundamentalist is typified as being anti-intellectual, anti-historic, anti-creedal, which the great men that fought the liberals in the early 20th century were certainly not any of the above).

The liberalism of the day made such headway into the mainline denominations that they essentially ceased being Christian when an honest analysis is made of their doctrinal and creedal content; in our day, none of the mainline denominations may be rightly called Christian from a historic, New Testament perspective.

In this horrific state of affairs, came the Scofield Study Bible and the energetic preaching of C.I. Scofield. In response to the major denominations in the U.S. being corrupted by liberalism, the independent church movement began, and with noble purposes to be sure.

Essentially all of the leaders of the early independent church movement were dispensationalists, and the defacto Bible that was used was the Scofield Study Bible.

Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer founded Dallas Seminary in 1924, and while the mainline demonominations were jettisoning the Christian faith, this dispensationalist school was upholding historic doctrines such as the inspiration of Scripture, the deity of Christ, His miracles, the bodily Resurrection, et. al.

The person in the pew didn't want to hear that the Bible was "wrong," and that Jesus--if He ever existed--was just a nice man, deluded, but just a nice man, that miracles are "impossible," and that they were not only not in the image of God, they were simply a quirk, a biological oddity, a product of time and chance--in short, animals, of no more worth or real significance than a dog, or cow, or rat, or slug. In that worldview, Mother Teresa and Adolf Hitler are ultimately the same, as ethics and morals are nothing but the subjective illusion of evolved animals, with the same reward--if anything, Hitler acted more "rationally consistent" with the modern worldview, as he fully believed in evolution and the survival of the fittest. But that is another story, with the present state of American government and public education as monuments to the nihilistic, relativistic worldview they are based upon (that includes both parties, folks--the Republican party is different in degree, not kind, from the Democratic party).

Dallas Seminary filled the void that was left by the abandoning of the Christian faith by the mainline denominations (and as a side note, the cults took advantage of this as their rise took place during the same time period)--Dallas Seminary produced scores of graduates, and these men planted churches all over the United States, Bible-believing churches, and those sickened by the liberalism of the mainline churches flocked to the new dispensational fundamental churches. These churches did preach the Gospel and defend the faith, to their credit.

And here we are today...most conservative churches today are dispensationalist in orientation, and most church goers think it is *the* historic, Bible-believing view of eschatology and hermeneutics, which it simply is not.

Anyway, that is the historic background to dispensationalism and the Hal Lindsey brand "mark of the best" and the "Left Behind" series. "The Beast" of Revelation was most likely Caesar Nero. "Apocalypse Then" essentially.

Is there going to be another physical Temple rebuilt in Jerusalem? The New Testament clearly states that believers in Christ are the Temple of God; the final view of the physical (carnal) Temple of the Old Covenant nation of the Jews was foretold by Christ to be destroyed; it was, circa A.D. 70.

The kingdom was to be taken from the Jews and given to others; it was, and now the covenant people of God are those that have their faith in Jesus Christ, whether ethnically Jewish or Gentile. National Israel rejected her covenant with God, rejected her Messiah, and ultimately rejected God Himself. There is no special significance to the modern secular state of "Israel," which is [a] utterly contemptous of Christ; [b] is overwhelming atheistic in belief; [c] ethnically, they are German, Polish, English, Romanian, Russian, Turkish, Kazaharian, etc....but biological, lineal descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Biologically doubtful, theological irrelevant as regards New Testament belief.

"The mark of the beast is a counterfeit for the seal of God's name on the saints (7:2-8; 14:1; Ezek, 9). The beast owns those who are marked, and they are his slaves. Speculations about a visible mark miss the main point of the spiritual distinction between the two groups" (New Geneva Study Bible study notes for Rev. 13:16 Thomas Nelson, 1995), p. 2023.

Recommended Sites:

Also Recommended:

Understanding Dispensationalism, by Vern S. Poythress (Zondervan Publishing House).

82 posted on 11/17/2001 4:15:29 PM PST by EthanNorth
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To: woollyone
Not to be needlessly apocalyptic, but those supermarket and pharmacy "discount" cards have been scaled down to about two inches long with a hole to slip a keyring through. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that this would also fit on a bracelet or watchband.

Notice the logic though - Because foreign Islamic terrorists have waged a campaign of terror EVERY normal American will now be the target of tracking and surveillance. What a crock! And a waste of tax dollars.

83 posted on 11/17/2001 4:22:43 PM PST by Kermit the Frog Does theWatusi
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To: mercy
Have you ever seen the movie "The Contender". Its about a Congress woman running for Vice Presidency. She does not believe in God and her only God is big government. Unfortunately this practice is growing more and more. Have a problem, we will turn to big government and let them solve it for us. As this country turns their back on God, God will get fed up and look the other way. II Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 2 ESDRAS 13:29 The day is near when the Most High will start bringing deliverance to those on earth. Its panic-stricken inhabitants will plot hostilities against one another, city against city, region against region, nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom. When that happens, and all the signs that I have shown you take place, [And as the end approaches, we will see an intensification of hostility to tile gospel.]
84 posted on 11/17/2001 5:45:24 PM PST by omenseer
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To: Texas Yellow Rose
Maybe so, but some need no interpertation. "Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist,he who denies the Father an the Son." I John 2:22 "For many decievers, have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh; such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist" II John 1:7 "Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour." I John 2:18
85 posted on 11/17/2001 5:53:42 PM PST by omenseer
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To: omenseer
"We are in a new world," Gephardt said. "This event will change the balance between freedom and security."

Probably rubbing his hands with glee as he says that.

86 posted on 11/17/2001 5:57:02 PM PST by xm177e2
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To: EthanNorth
Do not get to comfortable just because a Republican is in office. He is suppose to be a conservative. But considering the family, do you know who his father is. This is in honor of George Herbert Walker Bush. The George Bush Presidential Library Center will be located in College Station on 90 acres of the Texas A&M University campus, offering a central location which is easily accessible from major population centers in Texas. The Center will chronicle the history of President Bush's time, including his presidency and his long public service career in the United Nations, China, the Central Intelligence Agency, Congress and as vice president and world leader. It will be a living, enduring, and vital enterprise. As part of the National Archives, the library holdings will be accessible to scholars and students from around the world. They will write the history of one of the most exciting periods in world politics-the demise of communism and what has been termed the creation of a "new world order." These facilities and programs will afford national and international scholars the opportunity to assemble for study, research and conferences.
87 posted on 11/17/2001 6:01:24 PM PST by omenseer
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To: EthanNorth
John Nelson Darby of the Plymouth Brethren (circa A.D. 1830s) literally invented isn't found in the Church fathers; it isn't found in the universal creeds of the historic Church; it isn't found in Augustine; it isn't found in any of the great Reformation creeds and statements of faith; it isn't found in Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Knox, Spurgeon, Dabney, Machen, well, I hope the reader gets the point.


There's nothing like dropping a 'daisy cutter' on this disp/pre-mil movement. In all my conversations with dispies (an endearing term, because I do consider them to be valuable brothers/sisters in Christ) all are very suprised to hear that their eschotology is of very recent construction. That this view is only 170 years old doesn't logically dismiss it as invalid, but it certainly should give one pause.

Furthermore, their 'literal' hermenutic simply cannot stand on its own. In reality, most do not take what these passages in question absolutely literally.

They, for example, don't read that Rev. 20 actually has two millennia: "4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment (Original Greek: krima:verdict) was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands;

(The Original Greek here actually shows two distinct groups of people which John sees. One group dead (beheaded) and one group very possibly still alive -soul has been used to denote a person still living in the body-see: Romans 13:1: And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and the souls of the (ones) having been beheaded because of the witness of Jesus and because of the word of God, and (those) who did not worship the beast nor the image of it and did not receive the mark on the forehead and on the hand of them;)

and they lived (past tense) and reigned (past tense) with Christ a thousand years...6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall (future event) be priests of God and of Christ, and shall (future event) reign with him a thousand years.

So, these dispies who claim to take the Bible 'at it's word' really cannot in this circumstance because they would have no explanation for the different millennia.

Also, when confronted with 1 Corinthians 15: 51-53, they deny that the "last trumpet" is really the last trumpet. They claim it is the 'last trumpet for the Church'. After all, if it was really the last trumpet, as the passage says it is, it would be the same trumpet as Matthew 24:31 which is the trumpet after the 'great tribulation'.

We also here from the disp/pre-mill's that when 1 Thessalonians 4:16 seems to plainly suggest a very noisy, loud, visible return of Christ, it actually teaches a silent, secret coming to rapture only the church.

The disp/pre-mill's also try to explain away 2 Thessalonians 2 which warns specifically the Thessalonian congregation that 'the day of the Lord' will occur only after the man of lawlessness (during the tribulation according to dispies) has been revealed. They explain this away by arguing that the Thessalonian congregation is jewish. Sorry, the Thessalonians are decidedly gentile!

We also see further 'explanations' in Matthew 24:31 regarding the 'gathering of the elect' after the 'great tribulation'. Because this terminology sounds very similar to 1 Thessalonians 4 and their 'pre-tribulational' rapture, the dispies claim the 'elect' are the 'chosen jews'. Interestingly, that distinction is absent from from the text and, too, the New Testament is filled with referrences to the 'elect' being the New Testament church (see Romans 8:33; 1 Peter 1:2).

We also see Jesus' words in Matthew 24 saying nothing about removing the believers from earth. A literal reading of Matthew 24:22-24 indisputedly tells us that the days will be only 'cut short' for the elect, not that the 'elect' will be removed -implying that they will still be on earth.

As for Revelation 3? To "keep thee from the hour of temptation" in no way means removing those from the face of the earth any more than praying "keep us from temptation" (Lord's prayer) means that God yanks us off the planet every time we face temptations.

This is why EthanNorth is correct in his summation that dispensational pre-millennialsim is simply made up. They cannot demonstrate the scriptures teach a pre-tribulational secret coming of Christ. They cannot demonstrate the scriptures teach a 7 year tribulation. It simply isn't in the Bible. Rather, it is read into the Bible.

88 posted on 11/17/2001 7:57:07 PM PST by Jean Chauvin
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To: omenseer
I can't 'argue' with you and prior to 9/11 I was more of your persuasion than I am now. I don't see this nation turning it's back on God. Many, yes but not nearly all. God is not going to wreak a special affliction on a land with at least 30% believing Christians. It doesn't fulfill any Biblical type. Maybe there is a pre-trib rapture but I fail to see that type anywhere either. No, not the deliverence of the Jews through the Red Sea. Though miraculous it was still very much 'in the flesh'. Not that God cannot do a new thing. I'm for it. I think everybody ... world wide ... is going to take the hits at the same time. Multitudes killed by disease and famine. Could happen starting tomorrow and for many it is now taking place. Multitudes killed in war. That's certainly gearing up right now. I guess when the anti-christ commits the abomination that causes desolation he will have a very reduced audience.
89 posted on 11/17/2001 8:59:20 PM PST by mercy
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To: Uncle Meat
Get a "rectal scan" at you own risk…

I got something in my eye…

90 posted on 11/17/2001 10:54:22 PM PST by DB
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To: DB
Can I buy an "r"?

One fell out there somewhere...

91 posted on 11/17/2001 10:58:59 PM PST by DB
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To: veracious
Another person with his eyes open. Welcome to a very small group. From the posts on this forum, many "conservatives" would rather feel "cuddly safe" than be free.
92 posted on 11/17/2001 11:04:44 PM PST by poet
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To: justabig
How about our commandoes targeting drone rocket attacks while riding horseback with NA cavalry charge?

Come on that was just a photo op. They are doing other things then riding around on horses. I could just imagine the lady from uncle bens rice coming up with that one.
93 posted on 11/17/2001 11:13:23 PM PST by Libertarian_4_eva
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To: omenseer
I knew it! Larry Ellison is the anti-christ!
94 posted on 11/17/2001 11:15:52 PM PST by StockAyatollah
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To: anniegetyourgun
"He never said it would be easy - He only said we'll never be alone!" FReegards
95 posted on 11/17/2001 11:18:27 PM PST by 185JHP
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To: mercy
Hers' something I wrote based on the Book of Revelation
There's no doubt in my mind it will come to pass

Beware The Hoofbeats

Only one could open the book
even Angels were not permitted to look
the Blessed Lamb was the worthy one
He is Yahweh’s son

The First Seal

Four horsemen of different color
each was given evil power
one white, one red, one black, one pale
in the beginning they will not fail

The rider on the white horse
powered from the Satanic source
was given his instruction
to bring chaos and destruction

The Second Seal

Then the rider on the red horse
powered from the same source
will take peace from the earth
bringing mankind a great hurt

The Third Seal

Comes the rider on the black horse
with balances in his hand
speaking of weights and measures
to bring famine across the land

The Fourth Seal

The pale horse rider named Death
brings with him living Hell
with power over quarter of earth
he will bring forth the birth
of pestilence and man eating beasts
lost souls will be the demon's feast

The Fifth Seal

The souls of them slain for God
for whose testimony they trod
over many lands to preach
a white robe will be given to each

The Sixth Seal

Now comes the devastating quake
causing all on earth to shake
in fear of the wrath of the Lamb
from which no one can withstand

The sun will turn black
while the moon turns to blood
'tis the start of great destruction
more devastating than the flood

But those that washed their robes
making them white in the blood of the Lamb
keeping their faith as did Job
they will be able to stand
and dwell with Him who shed His blood
for the redemption of man

Copyright © 1996 By John J. Lindsay. All Rights Reserved
July 30 , 1996

96 posted on 11/17/2001 11:49:01 PM PST by poet
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To: poet
97 posted on 11/18/2001 1:55:14 AM PST by 2sheep
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To: veracious
You made the connection. By liberal lawyer Lysander Spooner (1808-87), a constitutional laywer and writer active in the abolitionist and other libertatian movements. In his essay "The Constitution of No Authority" (1870) with a series called No Treason, he argues that the Constitution of the Uniteds States has no authority over anyone who didn't sign it. They are all deceased. How can you argue with this kind of reasoning by liberals who swear oaths that are meaningless.
98 posted on 11/18/2001 6:38:26 AM PST by omenseer
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To: anniegetyourgun; woollyone
remember, until it is the ANTI-CHRIST, any 'mark' is not THE mark!

We will all soon be forced to use a debit type card, to eliminate cash, and most will welcome it. But remember, it is not the card that makes the data transfer, the card only allows usage into an already existing machine! What makes the card SMART is the CHIP that is in it, and these chips can be read by electronic signal or a bar code scanner or something. I would not be surprised to see a permanent implant in all military personnel within the next 7 years, and also in children. The digital angel will be 'perfected'. The pretense will be there, "Why, My husband got one of those 25 years ago, we arent in the New World Order!"

Scarey, it is happening as we speak. The timeline is the only question. But, surely, the crude technology to do this is here TODAY!!

99 posted on 11/18/2001 7:14:29 AM PST by RaceBannon
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To: woollyone
I didn't read ALL these replies to see if this was mentioned, but yesterday I saw a thread about how they will use the registration for the Smallpox vacine to gather all our info.

Then, using nano-chips they can imbed/implant all this info when they administer the vaccine.

I think I'll take my chances that my original vaccination is still good!

100 posted on 11/18/2001 7:19:45 AM PST by Bill Rice
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