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Mark of the Beast on Fast Track
11-17-01 | omenseer

Posted on 11/17/2001 5:11:48 AM PST by omenseer

Bush briefly discussed the ID card option with British Prime Minister Tony Blair, according to insiders. "I can tell you this, the president is very reluctant [to issue a national ID card]," a top White House source said on Sunday. "But we must look at all options." Just as House Democratic Leader Richard Gephardt [D-MO] says Congress should quickly move to open debate on security measures such as a national ID card. "We are in a new world," Gephardt said. "This event will change the balance between freedom and security." The Clinton Administration then extracted the various pieces from the various bills, two of which were illegally passed, and assigned the task to implementing a national drivers license (a clone of the European Union national ID card) to the National Transportation Safety Board. The internal passport will go into effect on October 1, 1999. In 1996 when Congress passed the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act. certain guidelines found in Section 656 (b) of the act. Federal agencies will be required to prohibit the use of state drivers licenses beginning Oct. 1, 2000, unless they comply with the federal standards. The new licenses must use the Social Security number as the driver's license number, for example. The act also calls for digitized biometric information to be a part of each license, or "smart card." Former Secretary of Defense William Cohen said Americans will be forced to make "choices between security and civil liberties." NBC's Tom Brokaw said, "We're going to have to reconsider a lot of our freedoms because of our attack." Representive Frank D. Lucas (R-OK) said, "If we were going to be absolutely safe, we'd have to restrict people's freedoms to the point that it wouldn't be America anymore."

TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Free Republic
KEYWORDS: billofrights
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To: itsinthebag
Earlier thread on national ID card.

Eagle Forum should have more info on them As would The one we defeated was geared so you couldn't bank, work, fly or numerous other activities with out the National ID card.

81 posted on 11/17/2001 1:12:00 PM PST by GailA
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To: Matchett-PI
While the pre-tribulational, pre-millennial dispensationalist scheme has certaily caught in American Christianity, vis. Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye's popularizing (Late Great Planet Earth; Left Behind serial offerings), and within the 20th century promoted on a more scholarly basis by Lewis Chafer and Dallas Seminary and others, who in turn took it from John Scofield and his Scofield Study Bible, it is a novel view of eschatology. A novel view that is having less and less support among even some dispensationalists...

It is not based upon historic Reformational theology in any sense, and is completely at odds with covenantal Reformed theology. Point of fact, it was *never* taught, believed, or even hinted at, by anyone in the historic Christian faith.

John Nelson Darby of the Plymouth Brethren (circa A.D. 1830s) literally invented it, though others in the Plymouth Brethren sect certainly contributed to its formulation (e.g., A.N. Groves; B.W. Newton; W.H. Dorman; E. Cronin; and J.G. Bullett). Some dispensationalists chafe at this, but the fact is dispensationalism is a direct product of the Plymouth Brethren movement in England in the early 19th century. It isn't found in the New Testament; it isn't found in the Church fathers; it isn't found in the universal creeds of the historic Church; it isn't found in Augustine; it isn't found in any of the great Reformation creeds and statements of faith; it isn't found in Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Knox, Spurgeon, Dabney, Machen, well, I hope the reader gets the point.

I am not saying it was a minority view, or a hated view, or even considered a heretical view--it simply didn't exist until J.N Darby concocted it in the 1830s.

It didn't exist in any form in the United States until circa 1864; Darby graced the United States with his presence.

Darby so impressed Dr. James Brooks of the 16th and Walnut Avenue Presbyterian Church in St. Louis that Dr. Brooks is considered the "father of American dispensationalism."

One of Dr. Brooks' students was named C.I. Scofield. So, essentially, the historical beginnings may be rightly traced, literally, from JN Darby, to James Brooks, to C.I. Scofield, to Lewis Chafer and subsequently being churned out at Dallas Seminary, founded by Dr. Chafer.

What made it "take off," so to speak? During this circa of history, the American denomoniations were being heavily corrupted by liberalism, in the wake of Chuck Darwin's philosophical piece, Origins of Species (Darwin wasn't a scientist, but a failed divinity student--his Origins is one of the books that everyone talks about but never is not a work of science, but is simply the [largely borrowed...] musings of Darwin), and the cultural impact it had.

By 1923, liberalism and historic Christian teaching came to a real confrontation at Princeton Seminary (at one time one of the great defenders of the historic Christian faith). The General Assembly in 1923 resulted in J. Gresham Machen and other scholars from Princeton breaking from the school and forming Westminster Theological Seminary, September 25, 1929. A truly great educational institution.

The Reformed scholars of the school defended historic Christian teaching against the anti-christian liberalism that was taking over much of the American church. The works they published defended the fundamentals of the faith, such as the inspiration of Scripture, the Virgin birth of Christ, the bodily Resurrection, the divinity of Christ and the substitutionary atonement of Christ. Those that held to historic Christian teaching were then labeled "fundamentalists" (it should be carefully noted that these "fundamentalists" should not be equated with or confused with the current dispensationalist fundamentalists, as they are strikingly different, whereas the so-called present-day fundamentalist is typified as being anti-intellectual, anti-historic, anti-creedal, which the great men that fought the liberals in the early 20th century were certainly not any of the above).

The liberalism of the day made such headway into the mainline denominations that they essentially ceased being Christian when an honest analysis is made of their doctrinal and creedal content; in our day, none of the mainline denominations may be rightly called Christian from a historic, New Testament perspective.

In this horrific state of affairs, came the Scofield Study Bible and the energetic preaching of C.I. Scofield. In response to the major denominations in the U.S. being corrupted by liberalism, the independent church movement began, and with noble purposes to be sure.

Essentially all of the leaders of the early independent church movement were dispensationalists, and the defacto Bible that was used was the Scofield Study Bible.

Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer founded Dallas Seminary in 1924, and while the mainline demonominations were jettisoning the Christian faith, this dispensationalist school was upholding historic doctrines such as the inspiration of Scripture, the deity of Christ, His miracles, the bodily Resurrection, et. al.

The person in the pew didn't want to hear that the Bible was "wrong," and that Jesus--if He ever existed--was just a nice man, deluded, but just a nice man, that miracles are "impossible," and that they were not only not in the image of God, they were simply a quirk, a biological oddity, a product of time and chance--in short, animals, of no more worth or real significance than a dog, or cow, or rat, or slug. In that worldview, Mother Teresa and Adolf Hitler are ultimately the same, as ethics and morals are nothing but the subjective illusion of evolved animals, with the same reward--if anything, Hitler acted more "rationally consistent" with the modern worldview, as he fully believed in evolution and the survival of the fittest. But that is another story, with the present state of American government and public education as monuments to the nihilistic, relativistic worldview they are based upon (that includes both parties, folks--the Republican party is different in degree, not kind, from the Democratic party).

Dallas Seminary filled the void that was left by the abandoning of the Christian faith by the mainline denominations (and as a side note, the cults took advantage of this as their rise took place during the same time period)--Dallas Seminary produced scores of graduates, and these men planted churches all over the United States, Bible-believing churches, and those sickened by the liberalism of the mainline churches flocked to the new dispensational fundamental churches. These churches did preach the Gospel and defend the faith, to their credit.

And here we are today...most conservative churches today are dispensationalist in orientation, and most church goers think it is *the* historic, Bible-believing view of eschatology and hermeneutics, which it simply is not.

Anyway, that is the historic background to dispensationalism and the Hal Lindsey brand "mark of the best" and the "Left Behind" series. "The Beast" of Revelation was most likely Caesar Nero. "Apocalypse Then" essentially.

Is there going to be another physical Temple rebuilt in Jerusalem? The New Testament clearly states that believers in Christ are the Temple of God; the final view of the physical (carnal) Temple of the Old Covenant nation of the Jews was foretold by Christ to be destroyed; it was, circa A.D. 70.

The kingdom was to be taken from the Jews and given to others; it was, and now the covenant people of God are those that have their faith in Jesus Christ, whether ethnically Jewish or Gentile. National Israel rejected her covenant with God, rejected her Messiah, and ultimately rejected God Himself. There is no special significance to the modern secular state of "Israel," which is [a] utterly contemptous of Christ; [b] is overwhelming atheistic in belief; [c] ethnically, they are German, Polish, English, Romanian, Russian, Turkish, Kazaharian, etc....but biological, lineal descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Biologically doubtful, theological irrelevant as regards New Testament belief.

"The mark of the beast is a counterfeit for the seal of God's name on the saints (7:2-8; 14:1; Ezek, 9). The beast owns those who are marked, and they are his slaves. Speculations about a visible mark miss the main point of the spiritual distinction between the two groups" (New Geneva Study Bible study notes for Rev. 13:16 Thomas Nelson, 1995), p. 2023.

Recommended Sites:

Also Recommended:

Understanding Dispensationalism, by Vern S. Poythress (Zondervan Publishing House).

82 posted on 11/17/2001 4:15:29 PM PST by EthanNorth
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To: woollyone
Not to be needlessly apocalyptic, but those supermarket and pharmacy "discount" cards have been scaled down to about two inches long with a hole to slip a keyring through. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that this would also fit on a bracelet or watchband.

Notice the logic though - Because foreign Islamic terrorists have waged a campaign of terror EVERY normal American will now be the target of tracking and surveillance. What a crock! And a waste of tax dollars.

83 posted on 11/17/2001 4:22:43 PM PST by Kermit the Frog Does theWatusi
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To: mercy
Have you ever seen the movie "The Contender". Its about a Congress woman running for Vice Presidency. She does not believe in God and her only God is big government. Unfortunately this practice is growing more and more. Have a problem, we will turn to big government and let them solve it for us. As this country turns their back on God, God will get fed up and look the other way. II Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 2 ESDRAS 13:29 The day is near when the Most High will start bringing deliverance to those on earth. Its panic-stricken inhabitants will plot hostilities against one another, city against city, region against region, nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom. When that happens, and all the signs that I have shown you take place, [And as the end approaches, we will see an intensification of hostility to tile gospel.]
84 posted on 11/17/2001 5:45:24 PM PST by omenseer
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To: Texas Yellow Rose
Maybe so, but some need no interpertation. "Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist,he who denies the Father an the Son." I John 2:22 "For many decievers, have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh; such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist" II John 1:7 "Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour." I John 2:18
85 posted on 11/17/2001 5:53:42 PM PST by omenseer
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To: omenseer
"We are in a new world," Gephardt said. "This event will change the balance between freedom and security."

Probably rubbing his hands with glee as he says that.

86 posted on 11/17/2001 5:57:02 PM PST by xm177e2
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To: EthanNorth
Do not get to comfortable just because a Republican is in office. He is suppose to be a conservative. But considering the family, do you know who his father is. This is in honor of George Herbert Walker Bush. The George Bush Presidential Library Center will be located in College Station on 90 acres of the Texas A&M University campus, offering a central location which is easily accessible from major population centers in Texas. The Center will chronicle the history of President Bush's time, including his presidency and his long public service career in the United Nations, China, the Central Intelligence Agency, Congress and as vice president and world leader. It will be a living, enduring, and vital enterprise. As part of the National Archives, the library holdings will be accessible to scholars and students from around the world. They will write the history of one of the most exciting periods in world politics-the demise of communism and what has been termed the creation of a "new world order." These facilities and programs will afford national and international scholars the opportunity to assemble for study, research and conferences.
87 posted on 11/17/2001 6:01:24 PM PST by omenseer
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To: EthanNorth
John Nelson Darby of the Plymouth Brethren (circa A.D. 1830s) literally invented isn't found in the Church fathers; it isn't found in the universal creeds of the historic Church; it isn't found in Augustine; it isn't found in any of the great Reformation creeds and statements of faith; it isn't found in Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Knox, Spurgeon, Dabney, Machen, well, I hope the reader gets the point.


There's nothing like dropping a 'daisy cutter' on this disp/pre-mil movement. In all my conversations with dispies (an endearing term, because I do consider them to be valuable brothers/sisters in Christ) all are very suprised to hear that their eschotology is of very recent construction. That this view is only 170 years old doesn't logically dismiss it as invalid, but it certainly should give one pause.

Furthermore, their 'literal' hermenutic simply cannot stand on its own. In reality, most do not take what these passages in question absolutely literally.

They, for example, don't read that Rev. 20 actually has two millennia: "4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment (Original Greek: krima:verdict) was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands;

(The Original Greek here actually shows two distinct groups of people which John sees. One group dead (beheaded) and one group very possibly still alive -soul has been used to denote a person still living in the body-see: Romans 13:1: And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and the souls of the (ones) having been beheaded because of the witness of Jesus and because of the word of God, and (those) who did not worship the beast nor the image of it and did not receive the mark on the forehead and on the hand of them;)

and they lived (past tense) and reigned (past tense) with Christ a thousand years...6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall (future event) be priests of God and of Christ, and shall (future event) reign with him a thousand years.

So, these dispies who claim to take the Bible 'at it's word' really cannot in this circumstance because they would have no explanation for the different millennia.

Also, when confronted with 1 Corinthians 15: 51-53, they deny that the "last trumpet" is really the last trumpet. They claim it is the 'last trumpet for the Church'. After all, if it was really the last trumpet, as the passage says it is, it would be the same trumpet as Matthew 24:31 which is the trumpet after the 'great tribulation'.

We also here from the disp/pre-mill's that when 1 Thessalonians 4:16 seems to plainly suggest a very noisy, loud, visible return of Christ, it actually teaches a silent, secret coming to rapture only the church.

The disp/pre-mill's also try to explain away 2 Thessalonians 2 which warns specifically the Thessalonian congregation that 'the day of the Lord' will occur only after the man of lawlessness (during the tribulation according to dispies) has been revealed. They explain this away by arguing that the Thessalonian congregation is jewish. Sorry, the Thessalonians are decidedly gentile!

We also see further 'explanations' in Matthew 24:31 regarding the 'gathering of the elect' after the 'great tribulation'. Because this terminology sounds very similar to 1 Thessalonians 4 and their 'pre-tribulational' rapture, the dispies claim the 'elect' are the 'chosen jews'. Interestingly, that distinction is absent from from the text and, too, the New Testament is filled with referrences to the 'elect' being the New Testament church (see Romans 8:33; 1 Peter 1:2).

We also see Jesus' words in Matthew 24 saying nothing about removing the believers from earth. A literal reading of Matthew 24:22-24 indisputedly tells us that the days will be only 'cut short' for the elect, not that the 'elect' will be removed -implying that they will still be on earth.

As for Revelation 3? To "keep thee from the hour of temptation" in no way means removing those from the face of the earth any more than praying "keep us from temptation" (Lord's prayer) means that God yanks us off the planet every time we face temptations.

This is why EthanNorth is correct in his summation that dispensational pre-millennialsim is simply made up. They cannot demonstrate the scriptures teach a pre-tribulational secret coming of Christ. They cannot demonstrate the scriptures teach a 7 year tribulation. It simply isn't in the Bible. Rather, it is read into the Bible.

88 posted on 11/17/2001 7:57:07 PM PST by Jean Chauvin
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To: omenseer
I can't 'argue' with you and prior to 9/11 I was more of your persuasion than I am now. I don't see this nation turning it's back on God. Many, yes but not nearly all. God is not going to wreak a special affliction on a land with at least 30% believing Christians. It doesn't fulfill any Biblical type. Maybe there is a pre-trib rapture but I fail to see that type anywhere either. No, not the deliverence of the Jews through the Red Sea. Though miraculous it was still very much 'in the flesh'. Not that God cannot do a new thing. I'm for it. I think everybody ... world wide ... is going to take the hits at the same time. Multitudes killed by disease and famine. Could happen starting tomorrow and for many it is now taking place. Multitudes killed in war. That's certainly gearing up right now. I guess when the anti-christ commits the abomination that causes desolation he will have a very reduced audience.
89 posted on 11/17/2001 8:59:20 PM PST by mercy
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To: Uncle Meat
Get a "rectal scan" at you own risk…

I got something in my eye…

90 posted on 11/17/2001 10:54:22 PM PST by DB
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To: DB
Can I buy an "r"?

One fell out there somewhere...

91 posted on 11/17/2001 10:58:59 PM PST by DB
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To: veracious
Another person with his eyes open. Welcome to a very small group. From the posts on this forum, many "conservatives" would rather feel "cuddly safe" than be free.
92 posted on 11/17/2001 11:04:44 PM PST by poet
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To: justabig
How about our commandoes targeting drone rocket attacks while riding horseback with NA cavalry charge?

Come on that was just a photo op. They are doing other things then riding around on horses. I could just imagine the lady from uncle bens rice coming up with that one.
93 posted on 11/17/2001 11:13:23 PM PST by Libertarian_4_eva
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To: omenseer
I knew it! Larry Ellison is the anti-christ!
94 posted on 11/17/2001 11:15:52 PM PST by StockAyatollah
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To: anniegetyourgun
"He never said it would be easy - He only said we'll never be alone!" FReegards
95 posted on 11/17/2001 11:18:27 PM PST by 185JHP
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To: mercy
Hers' something I wrote based on the Book of Revelation
There's no doubt in my mind it will come to pass

Beware The Hoofbeats

Only one could open the book
even Angels were not permitted to look
the Blessed Lamb was the worthy one
He is Yahweh’s son

The First Seal

Four horsemen of different color
each was given evil power
one white, one red, one black, one pale
in the beginning they will not fail

The rider on the white horse
powered from the Satanic source
was given his instruction
to bring chaos and destruction

The Second Seal

Then the rider on the red horse
powered from the same source
will take peace from the earth
bringing mankind a great hurt

The Third Seal

Comes the rider on the black horse
with balances in his hand
speaking of weights and measures
to bring famine across the land

The Fourth Seal

The pale horse rider named Death
brings with him living Hell
with power over quarter of earth
he will bring forth the birth
of pestilence and man eating beasts
lost souls will be the demon's feast

The Fifth Seal

The souls of them slain for God
for whose testimony they trod
over many lands to preach
a white robe will be given to each

The Sixth Seal

Now comes the devastating quake
causing all on earth to shake
in fear of the wrath of the Lamb
from which no one can withstand

The sun will turn black
while the moon turns to blood
'tis the start of great destruction
more devastating than the flood

But those that washed their robes
making them white in the blood of the Lamb
keeping their faith as did Job
they will be able to stand
and dwell with Him who shed His blood
for the redemption of man

Copyright © 1996 By John J. Lindsay. All Rights Reserved
July 30 , 1996

96 posted on 11/17/2001 11:49:01 PM PST by poet
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To: poet
97 posted on 11/18/2001 1:55:14 AM PST by 2sheep
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To: veracious
You made the connection. By liberal lawyer Lysander Spooner (1808-87), a constitutional laywer and writer active in the abolitionist and other libertatian movements. In his essay "The Constitution of No Authority" (1870) with a series called No Treason, he argues that the Constitution of the Uniteds States has no authority over anyone who didn't sign it. They are all deceased. How can you argue with this kind of reasoning by liberals who swear oaths that are meaningless.
98 posted on 11/18/2001 6:38:26 AM PST by omenseer
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To: anniegetyourgun; woollyone
remember, until it is the ANTI-CHRIST, any 'mark' is not THE mark!

We will all soon be forced to use a debit type card, to eliminate cash, and most will welcome it. But remember, it is not the card that makes the data transfer, the card only allows usage into an already existing machine! What makes the card SMART is the CHIP that is in it, and these chips can be read by electronic signal or a bar code scanner or something. I would not be surprised to see a permanent implant in all military personnel within the next 7 years, and also in children. The digital angel will be 'perfected'. The pretense will be there, "Why, My husband got one of those 25 years ago, we arent in the New World Order!"

Scarey, it is happening as we speak. The timeline is the only question. But, surely, the crude technology to do this is here TODAY!!

99 posted on 11/18/2001 7:14:29 AM PST by RaceBannon
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To: woollyone
I didn't read ALL these replies to see if this was mentioned, but yesterday I saw a thread about how they will use the registration for the Smallpox vacine to gather all our info.

Then, using nano-chips they can imbed/implant all this info when they administer the vaccine.

I think I'll take my chances that my original vaccination is still good!

100 posted on 11/18/2001 7:19:45 AM PST by Bill Rice
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