Prayer Warriors Fight Church-State Division

The New York Times ^ | 11.17.01 | John W. Fountain

[Ahban]

All radical wings of religions think that all the other religions are going to hell. Don't believe it one minute. The only power of God is Love. And everyone has it

You make a lot of confident assertions here, all without evidence. Does Osama 'have it?" Did Hitler? Will they and Mother Teresa end up in the same place 'cause the "only" power of God is love?

[Ahban]

I must point out that the classic Christian position is that we all deserve eternal separation from God (what Hell is). In ourselves, we all deserve it. Even though we do love and are capable of much good, there is a tendency toward corruption in the human heart that is unsubmitted to God. It may be small enough that we can keep that inner corruption from showing up in our outer actions for a while- say 70 years or so. But any heart not dedicated to serving God will become progressively more corrupt.

It may be outwardly OK for 70-80 years, but not for millions. THose little areas of sin and rebellion that don't seem so bad no will grow to make us like demons if unchecked for an eternity.

[Verax]

Amen!

Fight on brothers!

"Let he that has no sword sell his garmet and buy one." - Jesus Christ

[Hacksaw]

The founding fathers were deists.

No, a few of the founders were Deists. And Washington was not one of them.

[Verax]

Bump for the truth!

[4CJ]

What "church-state" division? Where in the Constitution does it say that? It doesn't? Where is the admonition that government must be comprised of atheists? There's not one? Who is included in the phrase "We the People..."? - just atheists? If a religious person's house is on fire, can government funded emergency personnel fight the fire? Can people continue to pray for our leaders, or is that now illegal?

Does anyone think that this is what John Witherspoon intended? The Reverend John Witherspoon that signed the Declaration of Independence and ratified the Constitution. Along with him were Abraham Baldwin (a chaplain), John Langdon and Charles Pinckney (founders of the American Bible Society), James McHenry (founder of the Baltimore Bible Society), Rufus King (founder of the New York Bible and Common Prayer Book Society), Alexander Hamilton (formed the Christian Constitutional Society), and numerous others.

I'm sure that they wanted atheists running America. < /sarcasm >)

[Tribune7]

Contempt of Constitution is worse.

Kids prayed in public schools for 174 years under the Constitution. There was never any amendement -- or even legislation -- to ban it. The ban was solely an act of whimsy by the Supreme Court using power which cannot be found in the Constitution.

Pray away, Havey, Illinois.

[All-American Medic]

Thats fine but what you gave me were quotes from the founders of America, not the men and women who were part of the Mayflower compact or Jamestown settlement. I am not against faith, and surely not against christianity. But its diffcult for me to accept the fact that the GOVERNMENT should decide what religion is good or bad, true or untrue. Being a Roman Catholic, I know for a fact that there are christians of other demoninations who feel catholics are not really christians and that the catholic faith is not a religion but a cult. Thats their belief and thats fine, but I disagree with them. You cannot open public school to organized prayer during the school day, I have no problem with schools allowing christian clubs etc. to meet after school. But you are going to have to allow the other faiths to do the same. There is no way the Supreme Court will rule that prayer in school is OK, only for christians but not others. So if you open that door, be prepared to greet what or whom ever walks through it.

[All-American Medic]

"Besides, I think quoting scripture from teacher to pupil should be allowed too IF THE PARENTS WANT IT. I think scripture reading issue should be as big or bigger than the prayer issue. There is a lot of wisdom on how to act and teach children in proverbs alone." And you will sit idly and quietly by, when your kids are hearing quotes and passages from the Koran or Talmud, when the muslim or jewish parents want it?? Values taught by religion are excellent, but they are meant to be instilled at home and church, not at a public school. The same way schools shouldnt be teaching your kids about things that are antithetical to your religion. You have a place where scripture is quoted to students, those are called parochial schools.

[newgeezer]

It is sad to think that you believe prayer is about gaining economic gifts from God. Yes, he will bless you if you have faith in Him and ask Him to bless you. But, if you ask for a 25% return on your IRA, I think that's a non starter.

But, what about The Prayer of Jabez? Isn't that what this latest, bestselling craze is about (the goodness in praying for prosperity)?

[so_real]

Wonderful links! Great reading! Thank you!

[so_real]

Oh come on. It the 50s just about EVERYONE would be considered a member of what is called the "religious right" today. In fact there have been man times in our history when the "religious right" set standards for local communities. We never did get like the Taliban. Instead, we progressively became the best, most prosperous nation in human history.

YUS! How soon we forget this when God has blessed us so richly.

[so_real]

There is no way the Supreme Court will rule that prayer in school is OK, only for christians but not others.

Pity, that.

I'm not convinced it has to be that way, though. The present day anti-religious chaos was not the objective of the Founders. As a nation we have strayed from the path they laid before us. I long for a course-correction. Is it really so impossible?

[nicmarlo]

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. Matthew 6:6

But it is also written: "Pray without ceasing."

[nicmarlo]

Biblical references:

1 Thessalonians 5

16 Rejoice always;
17 pray without ceasing;
18 in everything give thanks; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 6

18 With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,

[Luis Gonzalez]

I wonder if a Church would get angry if I stood on a pew during Sunday Services and began teaching my biology class?

[Luis Gonzalez]

Not questioning any of your quotes, but every one can be done as described in Matthew, basically quietly.

[rwfromkansas]

Again, their religious beliefs do nothing to change what they wanted in the new American nation: Christian religion in public.