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No Thumbprint, No Rental Car
Wired News ^ | 11/21/01 | Julia Scheeres

Posted on 11/21/2001 12:00:54 PM PST by Jean S

Edited on 06/29/2004 7:08:27 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

When James Glave arrived at Oakland International Airport and went to retrieve the rental car he had reserved over the Internet, he was dismayed to learn that the agency not only required his driver's license and payment information, but also his thumbprint.


(Excerpt) Read more at wired.com ...


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To: eagleflightpath
The GPS and speeding crap was mentioned earlier in the thread. I'm not going to bother looking up the post #s but I obviously am not in favor of these things and do not equate them to fingerprints for identification purposes.
101 posted on 12/05/2001 8:57:22 AM PST by Cold Heat
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To: Anitius Severinus Boethius
It's horrible that the government mandates this! They don't? Oh. It's horrible that I am forced to rent a car from this company! I'm not? Oh. It's horrible that this company would establish a contractual requirement without consulting my opinion first! Yeah, that's it!

LOL

102 posted on 12/05/2001 9:02:47 AM PST by Roscoe
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To: freeeee
Try this on then.

Bogus customer rents cars with bogus ID.

B.c. delivers car to Soprano chop shop. Car chopped.

Rental company loses many cars to Soprano car theft chop shop operation.

Profits collapse.

Dividends disappear.

Shareholders unhappy with stock price collapse demand better methods of security. Thumbprint.

Remember the episode in the Soprano's where Chris pays some Asian guy to take his broker's license test?

Remember how many of the hijackers had phony IDs drivers licenses etc.

Proof of identity will become even more important in the future. Will you object to providing a physical description of yourself?

103 posted on 12/05/2001 9:05:37 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit
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To: stuartcr
The purpose of that fingerprinting is to make sure that there is no history of crime...very different than allowing big brother to begin a file on your child..

I would ask them to weigh the benefits of being printed against not getting the job..

There is a plan being put forth that everyone in America have a "travel" card (National ID by another name) with a picture,a thumb print,and a chip with information from one or more of the many national data bases.....

Sorry stu..but I don't like it...

104 posted on 12/05/2001 9:10:34 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: justshutupandtakeit
Another problem with fingerprints is that they are not as good as many people believe.

Suspect Identities

105 posted on 12/05/2001 9:11:54 AM PST by Doctor Stochastic
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To: justshutupandtakeit
Investors just want their money. They don't really care one way or another how the company makes it.

The market (through investors) will decide if the losses from consumer boycott will outweigh losses from stolen rental cars.

Proof of identity will become even more important in the future. Will you object to providing a physical description of yourself?

Yes, I will object. And I'll make my preference known to the market in the only language it speaks - with my dollars.

106 posted on 12/05/2001 9:16:09 AM PST by freeeee
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To: RnMomof7
When the military or civil authorities finger print you, you will have a file, regardless of the original reason. Most states licensing agencies now have your face in a digital database. When you walk by a mirror in a supermarket, you usually have your picture taken, when you go to the bank, the same. There are very few individuals in this country that are not in a database. Currently, you cannot ride on a commercial airliner without a picture ID. I don't care for it either, but unless we want to go back in time, that's the way it is. With increased civil protections, we have decreased civil liberties.
107 posted on 12/05/2001 9:17:24 AM PST by stuartcr
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To: Doctor Stochastic
How many criminals have been arrested on fingerprint evidence only to be released later when other evidence comes to light? Many, a few , none?

My point though is that it is necessary in certain circumstances to be able to prove that you are who you claim to be and IDs are not reliable.

108 posted on 12/05/2001 9:18:15 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit
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To: stuartcr
With increased civil protections, we have decreased civil liberties.

At what price freedom? The safest place in the world is China......God help us!

109 posted on 12/05/2001 9:20:27 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: blackdog
I totally agree with your point. Three years ago I had my wallet stolen out of my own office. I reported it to the police and all three of my cards(Visa, Master & Amex)within 2 hours. The guy that swiped my cards was able to use them in the local WalMart, Toys-R-Us and K-Mart to the tune of over $8000.00. When I personally contacted the manager of the Walmart, he looked up the sales and thru a stroke of luck one of them was rung up thru a back store counter that took pictures of all transactions. The manager told me to have the local police call and he would hand over the tape. I called the police and the credit card companies and to make a long story short, they did not get around to asking for the tape for 2 months( by then the tape had been erased). But the kicker was that 6 months after this episode I was contacted by the security division of two of the cards and the gentlemen no so subtly insinuated that the circumstances were highly suspicious of some sort of fraud on my part. I straightened both of those people out with a vocal and in your face phone call to their superiors but the whole episode left me with the real feeling that these credit card companies give lip service to these incidents and happily pass the cost of these thefts on to the cardholders
110 posted on 12/05/2001 9:24:58 AM PST by Cyman
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To: freeeee
Did you object when you filled out job applications or college applications when that information was required?

There will be no serious boycott of this company for requiring fingerprints. Considering the fact that the per rental profit is fairly low it would take hundreds of boycotters refusing rental to offset the loss of even one car.

This is a tempest in a teapot.

111 posted on 12/05/2001 9:33:45 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit
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To: freeeee
OK... I tried this a ways upthread but got no takers:

Does a person renting someone else's car have a right to anonymity?

I'm not taking a stand on fingerprints per se, but identification is something that does matter. Specifically: my right to be free from having someone else masquerade as me. There's the rub...

112 posted on 12/05/2001 9:36:59 AM PST by Ramius
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To: JeanS
It sounds like a good business opportunity for some entrepenuer to set up a car rental across the street with a "NO THUMBPRINTS/No Hassle - CAR RENTAL" sign.
113 posted on 12/05/2001 9:42:08 AM PST by Wm Bach
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To: justshutupandtakeit
Did you object when you filled out job applications or college applications when that information was required?

No job or school has ever required fingerprints or any other biometric information of me. And I strongly object when SSN is asked for to the point that I'll refrain from doing business with those that demand it, if I can possibly do so. If someone isn't from the Social Security Administration, they don't need to know my SSN, period.

There will be no serious boycott of this company for requiring fingerprints.

Just look at what happened when they put GPS trackers in cars and started fining people for speeding. They dropped that idea like a hot potato.

Considering the fact that the per rental profit is fairly low it would take hundreds of boycotters refusing rental to offset the loss of even one car.

I'm doing my part. If you are correct and profits favor fingerprinting, I'll do without rental cars. Firms that disrespect my privacy and treat me like a prospective criminal will not find my money in their cash register.

This is a tempest in a teapot.

This is a single example of a much larger, and extremely important issue - privacy.

114 posted on 12/05/2001 9:43:05 AM PST by freeeee
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To: Ramius
Does a person renting someone else's car have a right to anonymity?

No. The customer is voluntarily entering a contract with a private party. If the customer doesn't like the terms of the rental agreement, they can decide not to enter the contract.

The car's owner has private property rights that allow him to make requirements of customers as he sees fit. If the car owner requires more than the market is willing to bear, whether it be high prices or fingerprints, the market will respond negatively and the car owner may be pressured by economic concerns to reconsider the terms of his contract.

The only rights relevant to this case are private property rights, and the right to voluntarily enter or decline a contract.

115 posted on 12/05/2001 9:50:22 AM PST by freeeee
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To: freeeee
My question following your comment was about physical descriptions required for those applications. SS# are required by schools as a matter of course without abuse. This was true even 35 years ago when I was on campus. Big whoop. Obviously your employer will have to have that number. And it is known to just about anyone who wants to know it. You don't tell hospitals or insurance companies?

Using mechanisms that result in higher charges to the customer such as tracking devices etc. are much different than mere security means of assuring identity. I would certainly not rent a car with those mechanisms but have heard nothing about them being dropped.

There is no privacy issue here; unless you wear gloves at all times you leave your fingerprints everywhere everyday.

116 posted on 12/05/2001 9:54:11 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit
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To: justshutupandtakeit
SS# are required by schools as a matter of course without abuse. This was true even 35 years ago when I was on campus. Big whoop.

Oh, I see. If someone does something wrong for long enough, it isn't wrong anymore. Thanks for helping me with that.

Obviously your employer will have to have that number.

That is because they deduct steal money from my check for Social Security. I call it stealing because I'll never see a dime of that money because it's been lost in the government's unconstitutional ponzi scheme.

Amazing how one constitutional violation (creating Social Security) leads to all sorts of problems.

If the employer uses the SSN for any other purpose, or discloses it to anyone but Social Security, they have violated my privacy.

And it is known to just about anyone who wants to know it.

"Momma, the kitchen is on fire!"

"Don't put it out, son. Light the living room on fire too."

Thinking of it that way puts slippery slope arguments into persective.

You don't tell hospitals or insurance companies?

Nope. They aren't the Social Security Administration, so they can KMA.

117 posted on 12/05/2001 10:04:33 AM PST by freeeee
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To: freeeee
Fine just go back to the cave.

BTW none of your retorts are convincing and are beside the point.

118 posted on 12/05/2001 10:14:08 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit
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To: justshutupandtakeit
none of your retorts…are beside the point.

We were discussing privacy here, right?

119 posted on 12/05/2001 10:21:23 AM PST by freeeee
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To: JeanS
" ...saying that thousands of Dollar customers have been thumbprinted in past weeks and the company has received few complaints."

Today thumbprints, tomorrow DNA samples. And soon a bio-implants to make sure your a subject of the UN's new one world government. Anyone without the required implant will not be allowed to buy nor sell.

It is most difficult to free slaves from the chains they worship

120 posted on 12/05/2001 11:47:14 AM PST by Mikey
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To: freeeee
You are discussing the delusion of privacy. I am discussing the rights of the company to protect its property from thieves.
121 posted on 12/05/2001 11:58:32 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit
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To: justshutupandtakeit
the delusion of privacy

I can just imagine years ago, as some former freeee debated some historical justshutupandtakeit over privacy.

I can imagine my predecessor not wanting to take that first step down the slippery slope of total destruction of privacy. Maybe it was the SSN first being created or maybe it started long before that.

I can also imagine the old justshutupandtakeit telling him to 'put on the tin foil hat' or something like that when he stated that privacy will become a delusion if we aren't very careful not to take that fateful first step.

And now here we are, long after the fact, when privacy is all but gone, when what's left of it has one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel, when we are about to make '1984' no longer a work of fiction.

And now even the thought of privacy is delusional. Now, 50 or more years of destruction of privacy isn't warning of what happens when we allow small, incremental, seemingly harmless surveillance 'for our own good', when privacy is dead last in priorities, below safely, below money, below even convenience. No, now it has to seem as if it has always been this way. To want privacy is absurd, a crazy pipe dream.

Well, I won't have it. I'm not going to repeat the mistake of wanting more and more surveillance. It was wrong then, and its wrong now. Giving up fingerprints will lead to all kinds of unintended and other obvious consequences, just like the SSN did.

Today the argument is, "Why don't you want a national ID? Why don't you give fingerprints to whoever wants them? You already have a SSN and a drivers license."

Tomorrow it will be, "Why don't you want biometric cameras in every public place? You already have a national ID that tracks your every move."

I don't buy these arguments that deny that we are something other than flying down the slippery slope and trying to grab hold is dumb. Privacy is an essential part of Liberty and always will be.

122 posted on 12/05/2001 12:28:25 PM PST by freeeee
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To: HighWheeler
In the climate of fear following the Sept. 11 attack, the public has been more willing to forfeit privacy for the promise of greater security, without considering the long-term consequences, Weinstein said.

I agree with your comment, HighWheeler. A friend of mine complained the other day that he had gone to open a bank account and they were requiring thumbprinting. He walked right out. Unfortunately, he and the fellow in this article, are exceptions.
I find it so irritating to have my stand on privacy protection met with the response, "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about." As if THAT were the issue!

Thanks for the ping and hi! :)

123 posted on 12/05/2001 12:30:01 PM PST by SusanUSA
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To: Publius6961
I can understand the need, and yes, people who have nothing to hide usually don't mind

You are right, lets see.

We don't need the first amendment because we don't have anything to say about anything.

And if we don't have anything to hide we certainly don't need the second amendment because we don't need to fear anyone.

We don't need the fourth amendment because if we don't have anything to hide, anyone can search our stuff because we don't have anything to hide.

We don't need the fifth amendment because if we have nothing to hide, we don't need to worry about due process.

And we don't need the sixth amendment because if we have noting to hide, we don't need to worry about a speedy trial.

And if we don't have anything to hide, we don't need the seventh amendment, who needs a trial by jury.

And we don't need the eighth amendment, because if we don't have anything to hide why do we need to worry about excessive bail? And if we don't have anything to hide, we don't need the ninth amendment because we don't have anything to hide.

You are so right, the bill of rights are just stupid. All we need is the third and the tenth amendments.

You are a very stupid person. You don't deserve any rights because you don't understand what they are all about.

124 posted on 12/05/2001 1:56:16 PM PST by gunshy
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To: Wm Bach
It sounds like a good business opportunity for some entrepenuer to set up a car rental across the street with a "NO THUMBPRINTS/No Hassle - CAR RENTAL" sign.

Lot's of folks are too busy complaining to take any ACTION. Don't like the current situation, then offer an alternative.

None of the complaining geniuses on this thread has the brains or guts to make themselves a multi-millionaire by setting up a "No Hassle" Car Rental Business.

I'm running three businesses now, and I just might have to start a 4th. Thanks for the idea Wm Bach.

125 posted on 12/05/2001 5:35:58 PM PST by freebilly
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To: freeeee
Cute.

In days gone by where was the privacy when everyone knew your business who lived in the town or the neighborhood? Where was the privacy concern when laws were enacted regarding personal morality such as adultery, sodomy, being an atheist or a Baptist (in Virginia), or marrying a person of another color?

With regard to such (truly important matters) we have far more privacy than in the past. Thus it is a delusion that we have less privacy today than in times past. It is true that we have to IDENTIFY ourselves more because we live in a society wherein it is easy to maintain privacy and thus hide our identity. In earlier society there was not as much travel and people did not need more rigorous means of identification because everyone knew everyone. Cities themselves developed as a means of gaining privacy by escaping the social responsibilities placed upon individuals within a feudal order. Those often escaped to freedom. Now that would be somewhat more difficult.

National I.D. cards are just dumb since it would be as easy to forge them as all other means of identification.

In the past we didn't need biometric cameras since we had the old Lady down the block who monitored every move on the block voluntarily and reported all.

126 posted on 12/06/2001 7:29:57 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit
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To: stuartcr
Might be hard to drive the rental without arms or legs.

Fortunately, the paraplegics in question are merely missing their arms or hands. How 'bout if he/she had prostheses? Could you get a thumbprint from an artificial hand? Do prosthetics manufacturers go into such fine detail?

127 posted on 12/06/2001 2:39:19 PM PST by Tolerance Sucks Rocks
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To: Fred Mertz
Tell us about the plan, Ole Okie.

Sorry Fred, my hard drive died and I've been out of Freeperdom for a week. Gives one the shakes.

The plan they 'splained to me was simple: "Put your damned fingers on the card or we'll let you become a dogface."

128 posted on 12/07/2001 3:08:42 PM PST by Ole Okie
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To: justshutupandtakeit
How about this one. Mr. or Mrs. or miss thief hops over fence and steals car or just car jacks someone whilst they're at a red light or stop sign. Will thumb prints stop that?
How about this, while car is sitting at store, movie's, whatever, thief steals car and brings it to a chop shop. Will thumb prints stop that?

Thumb prints are just another way to get the people used to the idea of being tracked and prepare them for the eventual bio-chip implant.

129 posted on 12/08/2001 1:43:26 PM PST by Mikey
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To: Mikey
Nor will thumbprints stop lightning from hitting the car but that is as irrelevent as your comment. Thumbprints or some form of conclusive identification will be required by rental agencies should collossal loss rates due to theft by fraud mount. This is not a political issue merely an example of creative private property owners attempting to safeguard their property.
130 posted on 12/10/2001 9:00:53 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit
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Comment #131 Removed by Moderator

To: justshutupandtakeit
I can tell by you screen name that no matter what I say it won't matter. You "just shut up and take it' sound like a perfect NWO slave.

I can fake a thumb print (or any other finger print temporarily) so easily it ain't funny. There's an old saying; 'locks were made to keep honest people honest, but a thief will always find away around it'.
Do you honestly believe thumbprints will stop the theft of rental cars? If you do than your living in a fantasy world.

132 posted on 12/18/2001 7:13:15 PM PST by Mikey
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To: Mikey
It appears you pay little attention to my words so I won't bother anymore other than to say that companies have a right to attempt to protect their property be it thumbprints, retinal scams, DNA, breathanalyzers or whatnot. That is their right just as it is your right to scream about "Big Brother" or "Tyranny" or "Communism" or whatnot.

As to your ability to fake fingerprints. Yeah, suuure you can.

133 posted on 12/19/2001 9:00:38 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit
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To: Old Hickory
The sky is falling, the sky is falling!
134 posted on 12/19/2001 9:14:03 AM PST by oldoverholt
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Comment #135 Removed by Moderator


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