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'HARRY' CATCHES HELL FROM CHRISTIANS
New York Post ^ | 11/24/01 | TODD VENEZIA

Posted on 11/24/2001 2:08:47 AM PST by kattracks

Edited on 05/26/2004 5:02:25 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

November 24, 2001 -- Is Harry Potter the spawn of Satan?

That's the opinion at one Christian school in southern Australia, where parents voted yesterday to forbid students from reading about the bespectacled wizard and his preteen cohorts.

The vote was just part of a widespread anti-Harry backlash by religious conservatives angered by the best-selling books' blatant celebration of witchcraft and the occult.


(Excerpt) Read more at nypost.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: christianlist; religion
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To: RussianBear716
You and I are on the same page. It is incomprehensible to me, that these supposed Christians, are so zealous, that it makes them fear exposure to something, which they misinterpret, and then expound on THEIR opions, as though it were GOD's commandments. Cherrypicked scriptures, blashemously used as refutation, is a larger SIN , than is reading a bookof fiction, that has wizards as a component.The Salem witch trials were an outgrowth of this same hysteria.

If the people, who pontificate against the HP books, lived their lives according to what they are preaching here, I might believe in their sinerity. I hghly doubt that this is true. : - )

201 posted on 11/25/2001 7:03:17 PM PST by nopardons
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To: nopardons
The World Publishing Company of New York publishers of Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language College Edition , 1966. in which the definition of "Harry" on page 662 reads: "Harry ,,,a masculine name n. Satan, the Devil, usually Old Harry". If you have a problem with the definition above, take it up with the publisher or the author of the Scriptures.
202 posted on 11/25/2001 7:17:04 PM PST by Woodkirk
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To: Woodkirk
Okay, then EVERY English, French, and German king named Harry / Harold / Henry / Henri / Heinrich was the devil, including Prince Harry, Prince Charles' second son. Harry Truman, Harry Belefonte, Harry Hamlin, etc. were ALL named for the devil, and EVERY person ever named JOHN, or a variation of the same, including Jesus' deciples were toilets . Happy now ?

Oh, and EVERY man and boy named Nicholas, or a variation of same, was / is also named for / is the devil.

Woodkirk... wood = wood, trees, etc. kirk= church. wooden church. Fine with me. LOL But IF you are nemed John, Nicholas, Harry, or a variation / femine variation / last name ( Harrilson, Nicholas, Nicoles, etc. ) then you too are nemed for or are the representation of the devil , by your logic; such as it is. LOL

203 posted on 11/25/2001 7:47:02 PM PST by nopardons
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To: Vets_Husband_and_Wife
I very much agree with you!

I recently became aware of Featured Films for Families (http:www.familytv.com/index_usa.asp)who make exciting movies....adventures, science fiction and even animated....specifically to give families good, entertaining movies without the political correctness of bloody gore and perverted sex.

My family loves these films.

204 posted on 11/25/2001 7:49:36 PM PST by WaterDragon
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To: Vets_Husband_and_Wife
That apple looked innocent enough too. I mean why would God make it if it wasn't to be enjoyed? And of course God had a good laugh when Eve was deceived into taking a bite..but my..... Adam knew better ...so we call it HIS sin..just a little natural curosity on Eves part ,but an intentional act on Adams...

Rather like curious children being led into sin by parents that should know better...who's sin do you suppose God will count it as?

"Of such is the kingdom of heaven!"

205 posted on 11/25/2001 8:03:24 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: nopardons
2 Timothy 3: 1-7 "In the last days . . . men shall be . . . ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
206 posted on 11/26/2001 3:21:44 AM PST by Woodkirk
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To: RnMomof7
Silly analogy in MHO. I ask you again, did you ever see Pinnochio? Snow White? The Wizard of OZ? And again if you don't mind,.. What religion teaches you to judge something you've never seen or read? Do you mind if I ask what religous affiliation you belong to?

Please go here, and read this article: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/577876/posts?page=11

I think you will find the views of several religions informative. I think the information your getting (and believing) is naive and hypocritical. It doesn't serve any useful purpose to condemn something you don't even know about. It just shows an ignorance bias (meaning, lack of knowledge regarding the subject).

There are much more important issues that need attending. I admit I skip by most of the Harry Potter threads, because I find them ridiculous. But after seeing the movie, I know how poorly slamming this movie is serving Christians as whole. And as a Christian, I resent being piled into the stereotyped Christian who would judge this movie or those attending it without really knowing what I'm talking about. There are quite a few Christians who have seen this movie and know that LIES are being spread around about it.

It's as innocent as all the other movies listed above, and the scores of others that are great family entertainment!!

In closing, your analogy about the apple, has nothing to do with anything I mentioned in my response to you. I will repeat, God must have had one heck of a great imagination to have "created" this Universe.

To deny creative thought, imaginations, and enjoyment, is a sin in my opinion. They are gifts from God. I'm sorry you can't see that. But would rather argue about something you've never even witnessed firsthand. Thats extremely closed minded.

Trust me, there are issues we discuss in this family that DO require us judging, to the extent that we say and TEACH they are wrong. Things like Homosexuality, Abortion, Murder, stealing.

We know that we can love a Homosexual as a person, but we must always admit and advocate that Homosexuality is a sin. We have to constantly try to help them know God. They can be forgiven and should either abstain (be celebate) or be the way God intended them. We don't say they are going to Hell, that isn't OUR job. We leave that, the judgement, to the Father.

We KNOW that Abortion is the murder of innocent helpless babies,.. but we can still love, and try to turn to God and Jesus the mothers and fathers who had abortions. They can be forgiven.

All murderers can be forgiven, there is NO sin that cannot be forgiven by the Father.

There are just so many issues, that require our time and energy. We deliver food to the Homeless on a routine basis. We do Christmas with them. We dont' buy a lot of material things for our kids and grandkids ( I made embroidered pillow cases this year for the wee ones, and homemade goodies will be made for the parents and the kids to share). We buy things for Foster kids and for the homeless.

I mention all that, because so many who proclaim to know so much, to condemn such innocent things like the show in question, sit so judgemental on such ridiculous things. Profess to be so all knowing.. and yet don't follow the word of Our Father. They don't help those less fortunate. They don't LEAD people to God, but rather turn people away from God by acting so pious. Its the old "Holier than thou" attitude. I personally think it repulses people. "Love" and "examples of caring, loving and giving" are what bring people to God. Not this judgemental hateful diatribe that has followed this movie. Its just ludicrous!!

I know that movies like this one, and the others I mentioned above are innocous. They are good family fun. That anyone see's evil in it is a stretch of the imagination. But then again, the loudest naysayers, haven't even seen the movie. Nuff said!!

207 posted on 11/26/2001 10:59:36 AM PST by Vets_Husband_and_Wife
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To: Vets_Husband_and_Wife
Silly analogy in MHO. I ask you again, did you ever see Pinnochio? Snow White? The Wizard of OZ? And again if you don't mind,.. What religion teaches you to judge something you've never seen or read? Do you mind if I ask what religous affiliation you belong to?

Yes I did. To me there is a big difference between a fantasy that is good against evil,and one that teaches REAL spells..and talks about REAL people involved in witchcraft

I do not need to read HP to know what the word of God says about witchcraft..

We had very firm rules about what was allowed in our home...no sexual material (like playboy),no "new age" material eithor books or music,no heavy metal....and no witchcraft (Horoscopes etc.) no tatoos. We had lots of rules that were best summerized as "garbage in garbage out". Put in those things that are pleasing to God..and you raise a Godly family (which we did)

Have you sat down and read the entire bible with your children? My guess is not.But you seem to be expending alot of energy to defend HP.Do as you like with your kids..but you need to know that all things are not spiritually neutral.

I attend a Nazarene church..the denomination would leave it to you...our Pastor doesn't let stuff like HP in his home..nor do his kids "celebrate" halloween....Yes I would consider myself a fundamentalist..

208 posted on 11/26/2001 11:21:47 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: nopardons
You have a lot more patience than I would, dealing with 'woodkirk' so calmly and rationally. Good for you! You really help make this side of the argument look rational. (As opposed to the Potter-haters 'never read the books but Tim LeHaye says they're evil and I believe every word he says and buy all his books, he isn't a bit jealous that Rowling is both talented and rich while his books are fit for toilet paper' people)
209 posted on 11/26/2001 11:38:00 AM PST by JenB
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To: Woodkirk
Cherrypicked scriptyre is blasphemous, and refutes nothing at all ! It is the refuge of the scoundrel, ill educated, bigot. Have you ever read " ELMER GANTRY " ? If not, I heartily suggest that you do so. : - )
210 posted on 11/26/2001 11:52:40 AM PST by nopardons
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To: kattracks
At first there was just a vague sense of recognition. Had we seen this Harry Potter before? But as we probed deeper the mystery intensified until the high weirdness clicked and we realized that "Waldo" (of Where's Waldo?) either had sired an illegitimate son or had a cousin wandering around out there. Perhaps they were both related to a common ancestor, a prince of geeks, as it were. We had heard the reports of a plagiarism suit against the Harry cult author, but was the visual model for Harry also unoriginal? Or was there some wider OliverStonean conspiracy of nerdy geeks with heavy glasses invading children's fantasy adventure literature?


211 posted on 11/26/2001 11:59:34 AM PST by Kermit the Frog Does theWatusi
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To: nopardons
I prefer fact to fiction --
212 posted on 11/26/2001 12:07:11 PM PST by Woodkirk
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To: RnMomof7
and one that teaches REAL spells..and talks about REAL people involved in witchcraft

What a bunch of CRAP!! There were NO REAL people depicted in this film. There were NO REAL SPELLS uttered. For crying out loud. Do you "read" the posts you respond to, or do you just respond?

Have you sat down and read the entire bible with your children? My guess is not.

There you go again... JUDGING without Knowledge. That is the "epitomy" of ignorance. And btw, being led like sheep is not serving our Father very well. Yes, we have read the ENTIRE Bible with our children. The King James version, and the New English version. We are getting ready to buy the newest version which I hear is even "stricter" than the previous two in its translation of Gods Rules in the Bible!!

But you seem to be expending alot of energy to defend HP.Do as you like with your kids..but you need to know that all things are not spiritually neutral.

Say what??? I happen to think your serving Satan quite well, but diverting our attention away from things that truly need our attention. You may be well intended,.. but your misdirected. Next time, please take the time to "read" someones post. Your answers are benign and irrelevant. "Spiritually Nuetral".. what the heck are you talking about regarding my post??

I can assure you, that we don't "Celebrate" Halloween. We have a party at our church called the Fall Harvest. Our kids DO go trick or treating, and guess what? They STILL don't believe that Goblins and witches are REAL. They don't think that dressing up as cartoon characters and getting candy is evil. I happen to think you would have to sit down and be teaching that it is something, before kids would think that. And we don't teach them that it is devil worship, but rather a time of year for kids to dress up and go get free candy from nice neighbors. The joy on kids faces,..and the elderly as wee ones come knock on their door is so worth it!!! I don't care what it started out as.. (All hallows), the fact is, that as a kid I did it,.. I laughed and had fun. I never knew that some called it anything else until I was an adult. I know what it was to me as a kid,..and I still grew up to be a pretty decent person.

Do I know that there are misguided folks who try to conjure up evil spirits? Yes. I think there ARE aspects of evil that are real. Like Murder. And I feel that the beauty of God is that he gave us free choice. Thats how we either go to heaven or suffer eternal damnation. We choose how we live, rather that be a life of good, or evil. Evil DOES exist.. but it isn't with real live witches. Those who become shamans, or witches are misguided souls. They ARE possessed, but I feel it is more in their minds and souls than anything that you could reach out and touch, that is made up of solid matter. It is mental. It is in their souls and hearts. Have you actually SEEN a demon?? I don't mean the actions of someone falling on the floor and flopping all over the place,..I mean SEEN a demon?? Because you won't!! You will SEE evil behavior.. just like you'll SEE good behavior. The deeds that result from those are "evil" or "good". It is wise to know the difference in my humble opinion and experience. To suggest otherwise is wrong. And all kids grow up and figure it out. I happen to think thats why so many leave their faith. Because they never SEE these things that they were taught were REAL. Its so important to explain it right, because one day they grow up, and if you are percieved to have lied to them,.. they will never believe anything else you tell them. So teach them reality,.. the truth, and they will stay true to the Word. In MHO.

Good Grief!! Tell me one flying witch you ever saw. Tell me one goblin, or devil you've SEEN.

Evil is in peoples behavior. Just as the Spirit of our Father is in our hearts and souls. It is SEEN by our actions.

If we follow the word of God, if we are bathed in the blood of Christ, then we FEAR no evil.

In fact, I would wager to say that FEAR is evil!! Our Father tells us constantly to NOT FEAR EVIL.

I will choose to BELIEVE with all my heart. I will continue to "teach" our kids and grandkids the difference between right and wrong. But I will never be so petty and so judgemental as some professed Christians claim to be. We teach with Love and Joy the Love of our Father. We teach that eternity is at stake. We explain that this life is but the blink of an eye compared to eternity. Why would anyone want to suffer forever? So we teach that God Loves us so much that He gave His only Begotten Son for us. He gave us FREE will. We choose our destiny's. We teach that life can be so joyful here on earth, if we choose His path.

If you think that teaching "fear" of things that "aren't" real brings anyone to our Lord you are sadly mistaken. If you think your kids won't hear about Harry Potter, if you think they won't know the difference from fact or fiction, then I will pray for you. Because if your teaching them that Witches are REAL (not saying there are not misguided people who think they are witches, just that you should be teaching your kids that they are mentally imbalanced and need our prayers, not that they are REAL, that they can fly or do spells). They are mentally imbalanced and deserve our prayers. I suppose you think those who practiced being witches or were percieved to be in Salem deserved their fate?? Come on!!! There will always be misguided and mistaken people in this world. The only danger is to themselves. They will know eternal damntion. I won't be the one to judge them.. God will.

I know that there have been people who do evil things. They are misguided to think that by sacrificing a person, that they will garner favor from Satan. Trust me, I know those kinds of evil are real. There are pedophilles, they are evil. There are murderers,.. they are evil. WE do need to warn our children of "true EVIL". But to warn them that things like this movie are evil, only diminishes our words when we try to warn them against REAL evil. We have discussed with our kids the danger of some who try to conjur up evil by killing chickens and burning them in a circle of stones,... we warn them that to worship anything evil, perils their eternal soul. But this is the little boy crying wolf. Trust me,. I've seen this movie and read this book and you haven't.

You and I will never agree on this subject. But at least I can say I've seen the movie. And if you've seen "The Wizard of Oz" then you should be ashamed of yourself. Because the Harry Potter show was no different. In fact, I remember seeing Dorothy do a spell with those little red slippers. But I'd have to think for a bit to remember any spells done on the Harry Potter movie. They might have done one to open a door. Thats the only one I remember. It wasn't ingrained into my mind the way Dorothy's was on "The Wizard of Oz".

I wish you could see how ridiculous and hypocritical you are on this subject. But if you never read the book, or see the movie, you will never KNOW how ignorant your stand on this is. But then, your Minister said so .. and thats enough for you .. right? Now thats scary!! I could expound on that,.. but I won't. But I would caution you to remember what the Bible says about simular things regarding "following" false leaders, idol worship etc. God gave us a brain and the ability to "reason". But how on earth can you do that with a closed mind?

A closed mind is like a parachute that won't open... dangerous!!

Sadly, that you watched all those other movies, then condemn this one, is just blatantly hypocritical.

I think that is sad. I think it shows a weakness of faith,.. not strength in it. There are real tangible things we need to warn our children about.. but this isn't one of them.

I mean no disrespect to you by discussing this. I just feel strongly that we do a diservice to Christianity by acting this irrational! We become fanatical like the Taliban. So threatened by a couple thousand year old statues of Buhdda, that they destroyed them. I would never worship that statue, thats not my belief,.. but I'm sure not threatened by it. Those are just dangerous ways to think. And one day, if that kind of radical thinking continues,..then we won't be able to have this discussion. We won't be able to pray at all, or share our belief in Christ in a public way.

It is better to bring people to Christ with Love, not by condemning or being so judgemental. Thats just MHO

Now,.. on to bigger things. Like a trip to town to get some things for those less fortunate than us (which I do often and had already planned for this season). Energy better spent! And please do me a favor and read the whole post.. don't take my words out of content. Remember that a computer doesn't convey tone inflection or facial expressions. I mean you no disrespect in giving you my view. I'm NOT judging you, I'm giving you my opinion, and to sum it up,... I don't think all the hoopla over this movie warrants this much attention. I'm voicing my opinion to YOU, as I think the whole "Christians are worried about Harry" business, doesn't serve Christianity well at all!!!

God Bless!!

213 posted on 11/26/2001 12:28:26 PM PST by Vets_Husband_and_Wife
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To: nopardons
It is incomprehensible to me, that these supposed Christians, are so zealous, that it makes them fear exposure to something, which they misinterpret, and then expound on THEIR opions, as though it were GOD's

Could be it is God's

Deuteronomy 18:14
For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so [to do].

Jeremiah 29:8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Let not your prophets and your diviners, that [be] in the midst of you, deceive you, neither hearken to your dreams which ye cause to be dreamed.

Jeremiah 27:9

Therefore hearken not ye to your prophets, nor to your diviners, nor to your dreamers, nor to your enchanters, nor to your sorcerers, which speak unto you, saying, Ye shall not serve the king of Babylon:
27:10For they prophesy a lie unto you, to remove you far from your land; and that I should drive you out, and ye should perish.

Malachi 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in [his] wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger [from his right], and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

Revelation 22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

You seem to spend an aweful lot of time defending HP..makes me wonder why???

214 posted on 11/26/2001 12:29:38 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: SamAdams76
You know, if I was a Bible-thumper, I'd be a lot more concerned with 90% of the other movies out there myself. There is so much garbage in the movies today. The fuss the Bible-thumpers are making about this movie is akin to complaining about the weather in the middle of an earthquake.

I am a Bible-thumper, and I agree. At least I suppose that I am a Bible-thumper - I believe the Bible is the Word of God and is true. So if that means that I am a Bible-thumper to some, I guess I'll wear the mantle.

I have not seen Harry Potter. However, my feeling is that it is probably not half as bad as a lot of the unadulterated swill that is spewed out from Hollywood. If I am wrong, I'll gladly retract.

215 posted on 11/26/2001 12:29:38 PM PST by Zack Nguyen
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To: Skooz
Oh, no. Not again. Some people have religious convictions and principles. Other people have lives so vacuous and devoid of meaning that they must ridicule those who have religious convictions and principles. Boring.

And even lower on the food chain, some people have such goofy convictions that they have to justify them, to themselves and others, by forcing everyone else to go along with them.

If a parent wants to interfere with their kids love of reading, fine, more power to them. But when they start burning books, or trying to get them banned from libraries, it’s time to point them out as the idiots they are

216 posted on 11/26/2001 12:36:58 PM PST by Hittman
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To: Hittman
But when they start burning books

Who is advocating that? Who is burning books?

217 posted on 11/26/2001 12:45:29 PM PST by Skooz
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To: Vets_Husband_and_Wife
I will do a search for you..there was an article published and posted here on FR by one formerly involved in new Age..He said the spells are real..and some of the names used are taken from real people involved..

Why is this so personal with you? It really does make me wonder why all the energy expended to defend this book..

Unfortunately these things are real..they are not make believe..God believed in them enough to put warnings about them in His word..

We do no service to anyone when we fail to warn of the potential harm of something like this..I do not call that love..LINK

218 posted on 11/26/2001 12:49:04 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: eaglewatch
As for promoting witchcraft, how many witches do we find in the good old fairytales and Walt Disney movies? (The old movies - not that crap they produce today.)

Weren't the witches usually the villians, with the heroes struggling to overcome the nefarious mischief caused by these sorcerers?

(Gal 5:19 KJV) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, (Gal 5:20 KJV) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, (Gal 5:21 KJV) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

(Rev 21:8 KJV) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

219 posted on 11/26/2001 1:01:26 PM PST by razorbak
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To: JenB
It isn't patience, as much as it is my hope, that people reading my repiies , will learn something and be able to see that facts just don't jibe with the emotional hysterics , that others post about these rather benign, innocent books. Chilren and adults have been telling / reading tales about wizards and magic , for millenia. Far from driving all of them into pagan religions, it has just given the vast majority of them a little escapist fun.

Some people don't like fantasy. That's okay, but tryng to twist the HP series, into some dire evil, that will turn unsuspecting children away from their own Christian or Jewish ( or whatever ) beliefs, is REALLY illogical. There is no proof of that at all. If it were true, past generations would all have been trying to follow in the steps of the likes of Merlin, the good witches in " THE WOZARD OF OZ ". and any or all of the wizards, witches, shapeshifters, and fairies, found throughout much of extant litterature. That hasn't ever happened . : - )

220 posted on 11/26/2001 1:01:51 PM PST by nopardons
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To: Woodkirk
Then stick to facts, and stop offerring your assumptions as facts !
221 posted on 11/26/2001 1:06:36 PM PST by nopardons
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To: TomB
Yes, they can believe whatever they want, but when they start trying to ban books (or burn them, as happened in Pittsburgh last year), it worries me.

I'm not sure I agree. As long as libraries are funded by tax dollars, tax payers should have some say. And, parents should always have a say in what their children read.

Burning books and preventing them from being published are abhorrent to me, but simply not purchasing them for a library is unfairly categorized as "censorship."

That said, our family is both evangelical and HP fans. My kids know the difference between fantasy and reality -- unlike too many adults (the Clintons among them *g*).

222 posted on 11/26/2001 1:11:05 PM PST by Exigence
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To: RnMomof7
and some of the names used are taken from real people involved

Yes. It's called "folklore." In fact, did you know most Arthurian retellings use the names of characters from folklore too? *tongue in cheek* And, some nursey rhymes talk about dead people and the plaque. Shall we ban "Ring Round the Rosie"? Did folks get so excited about naming the space capsules after mythological figures?

Let's not get silly about this. Folklore is folklore and British folklore is different than American. That doesn't make it "real."

223 posted on 11/26/2001 1:15:56 PM PST by Exigence
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To: RnMomof7
You know, don't you, that YOU spend even MORE time on thee threads, posting cherrypicked scriptures, and heaping calumny on people, whom you don't know ? You have accused many of being " bad " Christians, advocating " evil " , and claiming that they haven't read the Bible to their children, when they have done. Why is that ?

Posting scroptures, higglity pigglty , and ignoring the parts where GOD has actually FAVORED someone who uses their gift from GOD, to do what you would claim is " occult ", is hypocritical. Isn't Joseph's dream interpretation dabbling in foretelling the future ? If not, why not ?

If the HP series bothers you so much, then stay away from them. It's as simple as that. It's a pity that your faith is so shallow, that you believe that these books will make other Christians reneg their faith. It won't.

Have you nt told / read your children fairy tales, " THE WIZARD OF OZ ", and / or any of the variations of the Arthurian legend ? How about Shakespeare's " A MIDSUMMER NIGHT'S DREAM " and the Scottish play. ( I won't even type the name, as most thatre folk won't; that's just tradition.) : - )

224 posted on 11/26/2001 1:26:39 PM PST by nopardons
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Comment #225 Removed by Moderator

To: RnMomof7
You know, don't you, that YOU spend even MORE time on thee threads, posting cherrypicked scriptures, and heaping calumny on people, whom you don't know ? You have accused many of being " bad " Christians, advocating " evil " , and claiming that they haven't read the Bible to their children, when they have done. Why is that ?

Posting scriptures, higglity pigglty , and ignoring the parts where GOD has actually FAVORED someone who uses their gift from GOD, to do what you would claim is " occult ", is hypocritical. Isn't Joseph's dream interpretation dabbling in foretelling the future ? If not, why not ?

If the HP series bothers you so much, then stay away from them. It's as simple as that. It's a pity that your faith is so shallow, that you believe that these books will make other Christians reneg their faith. It won't.

Have you not told / read your children fairy tales, " THE WIZARD OF OZ ", and / or any of the variations of the Arthurian legend ? How about Shakespeare's " A MIDSUMMER NIGHT'S DREAM " and the Scottish play. ( I won't even type the name, as most thatre folk won't; that's just tradition.) If you have done so, then that is hypocritical.

226 posted on 11/26/2001 1:28:07 PM PST by nopardons
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To: RnMomof7
Unfortunately these things are real..they are not make believe..God believed in them enough to put warnings about them in His word..

Until someone can give me a spell that can magically clean up my house while I sit by my computer posting on FR, I will not believe any such cr@p. If you think witchcraft is real, please offer some proof.

227 posted on 11/26/2001 1:36:17 PM PST by Snowy
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To: RMrattlesnake
Ha! Good one, 'snake!
228 posted on 11/26/2001 1:43:39 PM PST by Harry Zee
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To: nopardons
"Facts -- facts -- facts, you say -- you can't handle the facts" There is that better. Since you don't believe Webster's Dictionary or the Scriptures, how about some wisdom from Jack Nicholson in his fiction mode.
229 posted on 11/26/2001 1:44:53 PM PST by Woodkirk
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To: Ahban
EXCELLENT RESPONSE. This is exactly what it is. Why can't they see it for what it is? It's sleek advertising aimed at our children.
230 posted on 11/26/2001 1:45:08 PM PST by bookwurm
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To: RnMomof7
Why is this so personal with you? It really does make me wonder why all the energy expended to defend this book..

Because people are LYING about this movie. And THATS wrong!! Sheesh.. did you even read the link I provided YOU??

231 posted on 11/26/2001 1:57:31 PM PST by Vets_Husband_and_Wife
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To: Snowy
Until someone can give me a spell that can magically clean up my house while I sit by my computer posting on FR, I will not believe any such cr@p.

LOL!!!! I wish it were so... LOL

Your post just reminded me of the tv show "Bewitched". I think there was a bunch of hoopla over that at one time too. I remember trying to twitch my nose and make things happen. Never did!!! :o)

I loved your response. I think its time we just laugh at all this, it really is getting comical. Thanks for a voice of reason!! Mary Ann

232 posted on 11/26/2001 2:02:02 PM PST by Vets_Husband_and_Wife
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To: nopardons
You know, don't you, that YOU spend even MORE time on thee threads, posting cherrypicked scriptures, and heaping calumny on people, whom you don't know ? You have accused many of being " bad " Christians, advocating " evil " , and claiming that they haven't read the Bible to their children, when they have done. Why is that ?

Actually I think you are the bandwith champ in favor of HP..I have posted frequently..but little compared to you

If someone is "feeling" condemnation from the scriptures that I post..it is the Holy Spirit not me. I have not "heaped" anything on anyone...the word of God speaks to it..I do not have to.

Do I believe that there are alot of "professing " Christians that see nothing the matter with reading these books to their kids..or purchasing them for their kids..yep..again I would ask them have you sat down with your 4th or 5th grade child and read the entire Bible with your child? So what counsel should that child take..which is more important..moms defense of a book that glorifies witchcraft or one that glorifies God? And that leads me to observe that such parents may live lives very different than their profession..

And yes if parents are reading these to their children and taking them to the movie...they have little care for their child's spiritual welfare..

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. God's comdemnation not mine

So why are you such a big defender of this book? You know I hate it because it is antichrist..why as you so passionate in its defense?

233 posted on 11/26/2001 2:13:01 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Snowy
Until someone can give me a spell that can magically clean up my house while I sit by my computer posting on FR, I will not believe any such cr@p. If you think witchcraft is real, please offer some proof.

Is God a liar? Or perhaps you think the Bible is fantasy too.

234 posted on 11/26/2001 2:15:27 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Vets_Husband_and_Wife
Because people are LYING about this movie. And THATS wrong!! Sheesh.. did you even read the link I provided YOU??

People lie all the time...and about many things..what interest do you have in promoting witchcraft in children?

235 posted on 11/26/2001 2:17:25 PM PST by RnMomof7
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Comment #236 Removed by Moderator

To: Exigence
Yes. It's called "folklore." In fact, did you know most Arthurian retellings use the names of characters from folklore too? *tongue in cheek* And, some nursey rhymes talk about dead people and the plaque. Shall we ban "Ring Round the Rosie"? Did folks get so excited about naming the space capsules after mythological figures?

" One character is named Vablatsky (a play on the name of Madame Blavatsky, a theosophist of the 19th century). A class in "Transfiguration" (regardless of its sacrilegious context for us Muggles) also hints at familiarity with the "New Age" belief in stages of enlightenment, including that of "transfiguration". A closer reading might also reveal a woman author plagued by the perpetual adolescence of the rest of her generation and with very probable extracurricular interests in the occult. "

237 posted on 11/26/2001 2:26:22 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Vets_Husband_and_Wife
Gonna bump you here. I've been part timing on these threads, they're amazingly frustrating. Big bump on your statement about how the anti-Potter venom is turning people away from Christianity. I've been on the "wrong" side of these arguements most of my life (started playing D&D in '79). I can honestly say that the constant pounding of the "it's satanic occultism" crowd is what drove me to actually study the occult for a time (had to find out what these people were talking about). And the constant venom these people keep mustering up for how I chose to entertain myself has pushed me to the point where, regardless of my beliefs, I will never call myself Christian again. While I know that you represent the majority and they represent a rather insignificant minority, they're loud and they're ever present and I don't want to share any labels with them. It's bad enough I share the label of American (and now Freeper, and they have caused me to seriously reconsider that on ocassion) with them; but I will not share the label they are most proud of, the one they wave as a rallying banner and brandish as a weapon against the "unbelievers". If I ever convert back I'll be making a new word for it, and I'll borrow a page from L. Ron Hubbard and copyright it so I can sue them if they try to use it.
238 posted on 11/26/2001 2:26:26 PM PST by discostu
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Comment #239 Removed by Moderator

To: Central Scrutiniser
I did offer proof...but it is proof you can not see or understand,because you reject the word of God

Deuteronomy 18:14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so [to do].

Jeremiah 29:8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Let not your prophets and your diviners, that [be] in the midst of you, deceive you, neither hearken to your dreams which ye cause to be dreamed.

Jeremiah 27:9 Therefore hearken not ye to your prophets, nor to your diviners, nor to your dreamers, nor to your enchanters, nor to your sorcerers, which speak unto you, saying, Ye shall not serve the king of Babylon: 27:10For they prophesy a lie unto you, to remove you far from your land; and that I should drive you out, and ye should perish.

Malachi 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in [his] wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger [from his right], and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

Revelation 22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

God the creator of all believes in it..he warns against it and tells you the penality for participation in it

240 posted on 11/26/2001 2:30:51 PM PST by RnMomof7
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Comment #241 Removed by Moderator

To: discostu
Gonna bump you here. I've been part timing on these threads, they're amazingly frustrating. Big bump on your statement about how the anti-Potter venom is turning people away from Christianity.

I find your concern for the well being of the church of Jesus Christ touching..You said it all..you have no interst in the word of God,in being obedient to God and you pretend concern that this will "turn "people away" no my friend it is the time when the wheat and chaff will be seperated..

I will never call myself Christian again. While I know that you represent the majority and they represent a rather insignificant minority, they're loud and they're ever present and I don't want to share any labels with them. It's bad enough I share the label of American (and now Freeper, and they have caused me to seriously reconsider that on ocassion) with them; but I will not share the label they are most proud of, the one they wave as a rallying banner and brandish as a weapon against the "unbelievers". If I ever convert back I'll be making a new word for it, and I'll borrow a page from L. Ron Hubbard and copyright it so I can sue them if they try to use it.

I trust that those that say they are followers of Jeus Christ understand that the lost have no true concern for the things of God. You have a label that I do not wear..lost...and as for those that have been vocal in their warnings..I believe you are correct we are a minority..but Jesus said that would be so "Many are called but few are choosen" ,when some come to Him crying "Lord ,Lord".He will say "I knew you not"

Now how do I know that? Simple you can not decide which of God's word you choose to accept..if you are His you take Him at His word..all of it.

I expect heathans to like this book..the surprise to me is how few obedient Christians there are

242 posted on 11/26/2001 2:44:18 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Central Scrutiniser
Well, for you to know that I reject God, then you must have pretty supernatural powers, you must be a Witch

No I just need to read your profile..you hate God..

I don't trust the major religions of the world, nor do I consider myself religious. I have found that, regardless of the religious sect you belong to, how you live your life will be how you are judged. If you want to call me a heretic, go ahead, you have to live with your beliefs.

243 posted on 11/26/2001 2:46:19 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: nopardons
Personally, I think your right!! Those who are the most judgemental,.. post the most. Yet claim others spend so much time "defending" the Harry Potter books and movie. Not only in my opinion are they hypocritical as many admit they watched "The Wizard of Oz", and other like movies. But they are extremely judgemental, and yes, shallow!!

Someone else said.. "They will soon be attackin *Lord of the Rings*", the movie coming next that is from another great Fiction novel . I think they will too. There are always this type of judgemental Christians. They give Christianity a black eye.

As I said before, this type of radical element is a deterrent to the cause they claim to promote. Be it pro-lifers who kill in the name of the unborn, or anti-government types like Timothy McVeigh who KILL in the name of our Constitution, or Religious zealots like the Taliban who JUDGE and punish even to death everyone and everything that doesn't think and act EXACTLY like they want them to. They loose more followers than they gain.. THANK GOD!! There always seems to be people like that. I think they probably need our prayers the most.

I firmly believe that we bring more people to have a personal relationship with the Lord when we love unconditionally, when we leave the judging to HIM,..and when we use the good sense the Lord gave us. I think you get it. Just ignore the radical elements of anything. God teaches through love, and by example.

I do think some of us felt compelled as Christians to intercede when we saw some professing to judge this movie as evil and any who watched it as Non Believers. I don't profess to speak for all Christians, but I do know I speak for some. I just don't want people to think ALL Christians are this shallow minded. Yes, those people who profess to be Christians have a right to voice their opinion, but not to say they speak for God or for me or like minded people like me. But they are really getting old with all their ranting and raving about this movie. I think they have spurred a lot of people to go see it. A lot of us have seen it now,..and now realize they are hypocrits in this regard and are LYING.

I honestly think the people who "blindly" follow their Ministers are dangerous. I can't help but think of the people who followed "Jones". They committed Mass Suicide.

The Lord expects us to USE the gift of cognitive process that he gave us. Some choose not to do so on their own, and the religious leaders who they follow, prefer it that way!! I would consider THAT sinful. Just food for thought.

I do understand where your coming from NoPardons. I think you probably "GET" Christianity better than most of those who proclaim they know all about it.

For me,.. I'm a "PRACTICING" Christian, in that I'm constantly learning!!! Until the day I die.. I'll be learning.

I think it is really frightening for anyone to say they know EVERYTHING,.. There is only ONE entity that is ALL KNOWING!! Maybe one day when I die I will be blessed and given the purest form of that knowledge. I hope I will be blessed by seeing God face to face one day. God Willing I will :o)

Until then, I will just continue to realize I don't know all,..and continue to learn with the best of my ability.

In closing, I have to say that every time I read the Bible, I find it fascinating. One time I read a verse one way,...and it means one thing. Then the second or third time I read a verse it will be like a light went on. A new meaning will just come to me from it. I don't think we are meant to read the Bible just once. I think it is the "LIVING" word of God. If we ask for knowledge,.. if we really delve into the Word,.. we will continue to grow. I think it is meant to be that way. It is meant to be ALIVE, and to give me the comfort and knowledge I need. Knowledge will just keep pouring into our hearts as long as we keep them open. I feel sad to realize that some Christians think that once they've read a verse, their interpretation is the only one. That really limits what God wanted us to learn from the Bible. It just is such an Awesome book.. and God is such an Awesome God!!! :o)

I've read posts by you for a couple years. You seem like a really nice person. I like how you think!! I just wanted you to know I read some of the things written back to you..and I personally think your thinking is on the right track.

God Bless,.. Mary Ann

244 posted on 11/26/2001 2:51:20 PM PST by Vets_Husband_and_Wife
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To: RnMomof7
People lie all the time...and about many things..what interest do you have in promoting witchcraft in children?

Oh that's a beaut. First you comment on the general prevelence of lies, as a response to the fact that people lie about Harry Potter. Then, as if to prove your point, you lie about Harry Potter.

OK here's the low down. For about 22 years a certain subsection of the Christian community (one with higly dubious intellect) has been picking on certain subsections of popular culture and entertainment. Spreading utter BS and total lies about them. Talking about them causing satanism, teaching the occult, warping minds away from God. First it was D&D, then heavy metal (full disclosure, yes there have been satanic heavy metal bands, they never did real well, nobody liked them, cause they sucked; everybody's favorite "satanic" metal band Black Sabbath had a born again Christian for a lead singer (Ozzy), sorry guys you lose), then Doom, then Vampire (cool RPG, kind of a wierd subcrowd that played it heavily, not wierd like normal hardcore RPGers, wierd in a totally different way), then Magic the Gathering got a little press but it wasn't popular anymore by the time certain Christian's started gunning for it, now Harry Potter.

And it's the same crap every time: it's satanic, it teaches the occult, it portrays witchcraft in a good light, it woo's kids away from the church, yadda yadda yadda. You can write half the next generation of articles just by doing a global search and replace with the articles on the last topic du jur. And every single time (with the exception of Danzig and King Diamond) they are wrong. Pure and simple, wrong, BS, no foundation in truth, written with no actual knowledge of the thing they're writing about or the evils they say it's drawing kids to. They build on a foundation of "evidence" that's usually one whacked out kid in Florida who probably should have been committed long before the "evil" thing got published in the first place. Then they take misquote (and sometimes outright made up BS that never happened) as "proof".

And you're post here is a classic example. Some pinhead that doesn't know anything about the occult (like the guy in last weeks article that says he was close personal friends with traitors... well he says "warlocks" but the Wiccan community uses the original definition of that word which is traitor) tell you there are real spell in Harry Potter, even though it's probable he's never read of the books, and plainly obvious they guy would know a real spell if it were cast on him. Next you have 20 or 30 people who have actually read the book, some of whom have actually done some studying in the occult (after a decade of being told you're a satanist because of your hobby, inspite of being born again during that time period and going to church fairly regularly, there's not much else to do), are standing up and saying "there are no "real" spells in Harry Potter, if you can get a feather to float doing what they do film it, we can make money at this". But you don't believe them, actually you completely ignore them. They post some huge post giving you all kinds of cool stuff to work with and all you can do is repeat what was just refuted.

See it's personal for people like me because you and people like you say I'm an occultist baby killer but you refuse to tell me where my sacrificial knife is. It's personal for people like vets because you make her look bad and cause people like me to have a bad reaction to people like her when they say they're Christian. And I guess it's personal for people like you because if you ever figure out that you're full of BS you'll lose your purpose in life.

BTW, you guys should turn your guns back on D&D for old times' sake. 3rd Edition Player's Handbook kicked HP out of the number 1 spot. D&D is back and raking in bucks just as fast as Potter.

245 posted on 11/26/2001 2:52:11 PM PST by discostu
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To: discostu
I can honestly say that the constant pounding of the "it's satanic occultism" crowd is what drove me to actually study the occult for a time (had to find out what these people were talking about).

I have a few questions for you... If you were a Christian at one time... did you read the Bible, or did you just go by what a few 'loud' Christians were saying? As I said in this post, the Bible is very clear about witchcraft and the occult. You can click on those scriptures and see for yourself.

When you called yourself a Christian, did you believe the Bible or not?

246 posted on 11/26/2001 2:53:43 PM PST by incindiary
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To: RnMomof7
Are you now denying that you told another poster that you bet she hadn't read the Bible to her children ? Are you also denying, like Peter, that you have repeatedly, and on many HP threads condemned outright, and implied that your fellow FREEPERS are not " good " Christians ? I wouldn't do that, if I were you, dear.

I am not condemned by GOD. Cherrypicking scriptures, doesn't really work as refutation. Nowhere, in either the OT, nor in the NT, is it stated that reading books about a fantasy world , which has wizaedry in it, is a sin, immoral, against GOD's teachings. It says things like " Do not suffer a witch to live ", and don't consort ( that means be up close and personal with, ask advice from, pay for the services of ) with witchs. K ?

You do keep ignoring salient points , so I'll repeat. Wasn't Joseph foretelling the future ( dabbling in witchcraft / the occult ) when he told Pharoh, what the meaning of his dreams meant ? Was Joseph punished ? NO, he was rewarded. Did Moses engage in magic ? Why, yes he did.

Have you EVER read / told / taken your children to see movies and / or stage plays , stories that contained witches, wizards, fairies, and magic ? If you jave, then your posts to others are hyocritical.

WHy do I post on these threads ? To countermand the lies and misinformation spread by others; that's why. We don't need any more " witch trials " in this country. Innocent people were murdered, because some people had their own agendas . Bearing false witness, in case you have forgotten, is breaking one of the 10 Commandments, and that is exactly what many do on these threads.

247 posted on 11/26/2001 2:53:45 PM PST by nopardons
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Comment #248 Removed by Moderator

To: discostu
See it's personal for people like me because you and people like you say I'm an occultist baby killer but you refuse to tell me where my sacrificial knife is. It's personal for people like vets because you make her look bad and cause people like me to have a bad reaction to people like her when they say they're Christian. And I guess it's personal for people like you because if you ever figure out that you're full of BS you'll lose your purpose in life.

Did I say that about you? Show me OK? You are not a Christian..go do what you want to do..this is a free country...now on a day certain you will get to meet God..then He can explain what he meant.

My purpose in posting was for Christians to rethink taking their kids..those of you that want to go ..go....

"But as for me and my house we will serve the Lord"

249 posted on 11/26/2001 3:01:44 PM PST by RnMomof7
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Comment #250 Removed by Moderator


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