Posted on 11/25/2001 10:07:37 AM PST by marbren
Dear VietVet, thank you, first, for serving in Viet Nam. I am old enough to have lived knowingly through that horror, while having the safety of an ocean between myself and the conflict, but being torn and horrified by it all, as my country was torn.
As to being perfect, the way I understand (and have been taught) the Scriptures on this point, the New Testament writers are urging us to be formed into the perfect image of our Lord Jesus Christ, who IS perfect (hallelujah!), and that the word "perfect" in many (possibly all) of these contexts means "mature" in our current usage. We are commanded to be holy because God is holy, but none of us can DO that; His holiness is imputed to us by faith and because we have the Holy One living in us when we are born again, but we also have to "work out" our "own salvation with fear and trembling," meaning, we have to keep working at obeying Him.
I make no claims to perfection! Mercy, no. But He who abides in Me is perfect, and He steers me hourly, daily, toward letting Him live out His holy life in me.
God bless you richly.
Just a quick question...
I saw you posted Isaiah 14 earlier on. Why do Christians view this as referring to some sort of supernatural evil being?
Reading the chapter as is, it seems to be a political diatribe against the king of Babylon, a countrty which was the 'superpower' of its age and one which was giving the Hebrews a lot of trouble. The Jews themmselves certainly see it this way and don't connect it with 'Satan' at all.
Reading the chapter as is,
Now I am no expert, but merely a well-informed amateur (and some in this thread think that my info is one sided because that is all they've seen of it), but I think the reason maybe that using the WHOLE amount of Scripture they had available 2000 years ago, they did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah, either.
We (Christians) know that our bible is a collection, a compilation of 66 separate writings over many hundreds of years, and that none of the originals are known to exist, but copies of copies, numbering in the thousands ARE known and that the THEME of these writings have a consist subject: God's relation to Man.
Paul has written(1) that the natural mind cannot understand the spiritual; Old Testement writers have said that when you truly seek God, that you WILL find Him.
This said, I'll say that some Scripture requires OTHER Scripture to illuminate it. The scoffers(2) will say 'circular logic', I'll say, especially in reference to the NT, the AUDIENCES that the writings were going to had MORE information than WE are privy to today. Many of them were ANSWERS to questions they had, and we, today, must figure them out by using the data that we have. Interestingly enough, many of the letters address the same ideas so that we have been able figure out most of it.
If you look REAL close, you'll see the tree: step back aways and the forest becomes clear.
Consider these verses:
NIV 2 Peter 3:15-16
15. Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
16. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
You can see, by the proliferation of 'denominations' and 'sects' that the TRUTH of verse sixteen is readily evident - and this by folks who claim the name of Jesus!
About the verses you ask about, many things are written on two levels, just as Harry Potter, LOTR, tolkien, CSLewis, Shakespear(e) - indeed, much of our literature is this way. Think of Brothers Grimm, Aesop's fables or the local daily commentarys in the paper.
NIV Isaiah 14:16-17
NIV Isaiah 14:4
4. you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has come to an end! How his fury has ended!
16. Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: "Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble,
Babylon is mentioned six times in the Book of Revelation and it is STILL symbolic of the opposite of God's kingdom. There are many instances of the Spirit of the world guiding or controlling the MEN that are being written about, but you'll have to read a bit further afield than just the immediate text - chapter and verse - to be able to put it together. Consider this, the very text the eunuch was asking about..............
Isaiah 53
1. Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2. He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4. Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.
5. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
6. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.
8. By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
9. He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10. Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11. After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light [of life] and be satisfied ; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
12. Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
We consider the SUBJECT to be Jesus, yet, is there anything in Chapter 53 itself that indicates this? Notice the TENSE of it..... Was, Did: past tense items - mixed with.. Will, future tense.
he will see his offspring (vs 10) compared to And who can speak of his descendants? (vs 8)
ILLOGICAL! they say - yet, it is on two levels.
I hope that I've helped a bit, as I want to shed Light, not create Heat. (We have been given the ministry of reconciliation)
(1) NIV 1 Corinthians 2:14
14. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(2) NIV 2 Peter 3:3
3. First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.
Actually I'm of the school that considers that Satan is the title character in 'The Lord of the Rings'.
Thanks, you have helped!
I have read much of the bible, out of general interest (religion is a subject which interests me) and have never really been able to see the connection. I'm afraid, though, that I have to stick with the Jews on this one and treat the chapter 'as is'. As far as Revelation is concerned, I think that it refers to the historical Rome and again is something like a political diatribe, rather than something describing events which are relevant to today, ie, the 'Beast' was Nero!
Posting on FreeRepublic?
As far as golf goes, its how I pay my bills! So it is NOT a waste of time. Unless you would like to pay them for me.
Very strange that you're willing to acknowledge differing spelling and pronunciations but so quick so condemn differing interpretations of ideas. Hmmm... very Freudian.
Exactly. Most fundamentalists agree that only the orignal rendering is God-inspired. Any translation is fallible. And, not all words translate one-to-one, thus the problem with satanism (calling on Satan for power) vs. magician (slight of hand, chemistry, etc.). A good example is trying to translate the English word "snow" into Inuit or the reverse. Inuit has many words for snow; English only has one. We see the same thing in biblical translations with the word "love."
I couldn't agree more. I have yet to see any of these wannabe witch-burners show me one example of an eight year old flying a broomstick since the 110 million Harry Potter books have been sold. We also have not seen an example of an eight year old plummeting to his or her death while trying to fly a broom. The reason is as simple as it is obvious. An eight year old has sense enough to distinguish fantasy from reality. Apparently, some of our brethren on FR lack that ability.
By the way, the number of HP threads is getting a bit ridiculous, insn't it?
That it is... and probably pushing the sales of the books and movie even higher. If those who opposed HP were really concerned, they'd let the controversy die down instead of continually fueling it. Talk about unintended consequences...
Very strange that you're willing to acknowledge differing spelling and pronunciations but so quick so to condemn differing interpretations of ideas. Hmmm... very Freudian.
Could you SHOW me where I did this?
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