WACO: Biggest Fedkill Since Wounded Knee

myself | 3 Dec 2001 | myself

[crystalk]

They weren't a gun cult, they weren't a militia, and they weren't right-wing. They had never heard of the "patriot movement," and wouldn't have approved of it if they had. Like the SDA denomination of which all but seven of the 140 persons at Waco had been members (and most still were)...they were hardly a right-wing group: blacks alone were a third of the members; well over half were people of color. Like the parent group, most of those who voted had backed the president who incinerated them--Bill Clinton. Fewer than half were US citizens by birth. As Seventh-day Adventists they had been taught to be vegetarians, to avoid hunting or killing even animals for food, and advised if entering the military to avoid any combat or gun-carrying roles.

Their family values were strong. Their children were exceptionally intelligent and well-adjusted. Like Hillary, Koresh felt it took a village to raise a child, and their enterprises (such as the gun-assembly and gunshow-sales project operated by three Davidian men) were such as to follow the sect's advice to keep the whole family, men and all, together visibly for as nearly 24 hours a day as possible. Too bad Hillary didn't make the one phone call that could have prevented THIS village from being gasssed like Hitler or Saddam's victims--then incinerated while life was still in them, including 17 children under age 8. BTW, at least two Jews, Pablo Cohen and Renos Avraam, were in the Waco compound at the time of the fire.

All along up the Federal line of command, everyuone had said they knew nothing, had been told nothing, and the like. But at the very top of the Waco Holocaust program, at the very center of the conspiracy for the eradication of the Davidians, in the "warroom" at the White House with Vince Foster and Webb Hubbell and Hillary Rodham Clinton, the conspirators believed the group they were attacking were the people who had sent out a series of hate letters, some 30,000 in all, from a Waco post-office box over the period from Sept 1991 to July or after of 1992.

But that, of course, was not so. Those letters had been sent by two "moles" posing as Davidians, who had never met Koresh or his group, and who in fact were controlled by the same conspiracy that spurred the BATF into action on that awful chilly, damp Sunday morning of February 28, 1993.

For nearly 60 years the group known as "gentle Davidians" had lived outside Waco without harming anyone, with good relations with their neighbors. So it remained on 2/28/93 and even during the siege, and thereafter. Many Wacoans offered shelter, food, and tips on Fed movements and actions to known relatives or sympathizers of Koresh and his co-religionists. Local law was aghast, but with its hands tied, as the Fed helicopters came to kill them.

Alas, the "gentle Davidians" are no more, their soft "yea" and "nay" forever stilled. First to die was the unarmed, unsuspecting Peter Gent, riddled by machine guns from a copter as he worked on a ladder high atop the water tower. Then the copter fire proceeded to riddle the roof of the rooms BATF had been told Koresh slept in; apparently they had not been told that he was an early riser. The only person sleeping there was Peter Hipsman, 27, son of a New York City fireman, who was shot up so badly he had to be put out of his misery. (...more in this vein...)

[crystalk]

Government losses of 4 men were due to friendly fire, and all had been personal bodyguards of Bill Clinton, three of them had been such when he visited Waco some 6 or 7 months earlier. The fourth had served as such, but not in Waco...

It is interesting that our current President has a compound outside Waco, just to the West, much as Koresh had a compound outside Waco just to the East...but we are always told that the Bush ranch is in "Crawford," while we were never told that Koresh was at "Axtell" or at "Elk," the comparable hamlets there. All of these are in McLellan county, whose large city and seat is Waco.

[DoughtyOne]

Please, please, please, please, please, get it straight. Regardless of whether the Davidian members had been members of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church or still had their names on the books as members, THEY WERE NOT PRACTICING MEMBERS!!!!

Quit trying to link them to a church that didn't condone anything they were doing! SDAs do not live in communes. They do not share wives. They do not approve of sex with young girls. They do not support the theory that David Koresh was Christ. They do not support the theory that David Koresh was the hand of God, determining the message of the seven seals.

Talk about the Davidians all you want. Leave the SDA church out of it! How many lapsed Catholics have committed grave crimes. Just because a lapsed Catholic robs a bank, it doesn't mean that the Pope approves.

Thanks for dumping the SDA reference in your future posts.

[Saundra Duffy]

I will never forget the children and I hold Butch Reno and the Clintoons responsible for their torture and murder. For victory & freedom!!!

[A CA Guy]

WOW, why is this up now? Did the FEDS kill other new people at WACO today or are we still trying to defend the loons that wouldn't come out? PS: I don't have a stock pile of weapons and fuel behind any walls. Wink Wink!

[Saundra Duffy]

CHILDREN GOT FRIED THAT DAY! For victory & freedom!!!

[Buffalo Bob]

An 8 yr old Branch Davidian girl was found after the fire, laying on her side, her mangled body twisted grossly backwards till her feet angled towards her forehead. This child did not die of flames twisting her body. She had no carbon monoxide in her system.

Click for picture of her, Warning: Graphic Content!

She died in agonizing pain from the CS gas. The ensuing seizures and powerful wrenching muscle spasms caused her body to bow in such a manner. It would have taken her agonizing minutes to die...

"I cry to think of what went through those mothers minds as they choked and gasped for air, watching their babies vomit and die the siezures taking the infants and twisting them. How DARE our government impose such a sentence!"

 
After breaking into tears, Sonny Bono had to look away from Jack Zimmerman as he testified about the babies, and the effects the gas had on them.

Buffalo Bob Sez: Janet Reno; I hope your last years are full of constant, intense pain. I hope every shake of your deteriorating condition reminds you of the babies and mothers who wriggled in pain. You authorized the use of CS gas which was banned for use against foreign enemies by an international agreement in 1969. Usage of CS gas, is considered a "crime against humanity" and is punishable by prison and severe penalties, yet you found it suitable to use against Texas women, children and babies.

I hope the end comes the same for you as it did for those two criminals in the movie Ghost. I wish I could be there in your last moments as those dark deamons rise from the ashes of Hell itself to take you kicking and screaming to meet your Master whom you have served so well, as you begin to serve your eternal sentence in the place reserved for Elite Members of the New Butt Order (NBO).

"There is no spot of ground so holy as where defeated valor lies."

[Tymesup]

Kathrine Andrade and Shari Doyle, two children who died at Waco. Never forget!

[A CA Guy]

CHILDREN GOT FRIED THAT DAY! For victory & freedom!!!

5 posted on 12/3/01 11:37 AM Pacific by Saundra Duffy

There parents were devils for putting them in harms way. So many times they were begged to be let go. I think those parents went to the same place as those Taliban do with the 72 virgins.

[crystalk]

You missed the whole point of my post. Which was: that they DID NOTHING WRONG, broke no laws, were innocent victims. Furthermore, my mention of their SDA background was TO HELP ESTABLISH THEIR BONA FIDES AS DECENT CHRISTIAN HUMAN BEINGS, not to tar them with any kind of brush.

Perhaps you were loaded for bear because of some things of the sort I too have seen which amount to Koresh is a loony, Koresh is bad, Koresh (& friends) are former SDA, therefore SDA too is bad and kooky, etc.

But that is hardly what I have said: what I said amounts to, SDA is decent and harmless, even beneficial; Koresh (& friends) are of SDA extraction and membership; therefore Koresh & co. are probably decent, harmless, even beneficial and thus deserve the benefit of the doubt!

[A CA Guy]

Never forget there parents put them there and wouldn't let them go. The ultimate act of child abuse.

Granted Reno was a F up. But parents were crazy to go into a Manson style compound with that loon.

[Saundra Duffy]

Thanks for the tribute to the children. May we never forget.

[A CA Guy]

They were asked to open their doors and come out. There were unsafe conditions for children there to say the least.

Weapons and fuel lined up against inside walls are SO AGAINST THE LAW by the way!

Open the door and come out and NONE of this would have happened. Their FREE WILL CHOICE caused their own downfall.

[A CA Guy]

It's ashame those children had those parents. Still, it is terrible the parents caused their childrens death. Very sad!

[sinkspur]

Government losses of 4 men were due to friendly fire,

Only one was due to friendly fire, or so I'm told here on Free Republic.

It is interesting that our current President has a compound outside Waco, just to the West, much as Koresh had a compound outside Waco just to the East...but we are always told that the Bush ranch is in "Crawford," while we were never told that Koresh was at "Axtell" or at "Elk," the comparable hamlets there. All of these are in McLellan county, whose large city and seat is Waco.

Find Axtell or Elk on a Texas map, pal.

Crawford is a city, with a city government. These other two burgs are in no way comparable to Crawford. There are no post offices in Texas tied to Axtell or Elk either.

And what is the point anyway? You're pi**ed that Vernon Howell (who's at room temperature) doesn't get equal billing with the President of the United States?

You're a head case.

[Aurelius]

"But parents were crazy to go into a Manson style compound with that loon."

"crazy", "Manson", "compound", "loon". Do you get paid by the word for the number of words from the official Waco-propaganda list that you can squeeze into one post?

[prambo]

Moron - take a hike liberal dreck.

prambo

[prambo]

Moron - take a hike liberal dreck.

prambo

[crystalk]

I have indeed found both Axtell and Elk on my Texas map, had done so before I posted, and the print is the same size as that for Crawford.

Axtell and Crawford obviously do have post offices; I do not know for sure about Elk.

That these simple throw-away-line facts have drawn such a disproportionate response from you, suggests that it is not I who am the head case.

[Aurelius]

This must be your first post. What has it got to do with this thread?

[crystalk]

I have indeed found both Axtell and Elk on my Texas map, had done so before I posted, and the print is the same size as that for Crawford.

Axtell and Crawford obviously do have post offices; I do not know for sure about Elk.

That these simple throw-away-line facts have drawn such a disproportionate response from you, suggests that it is not I who am the head case.

[DoughtyOne]

I know you didn't do this with malice. I do have to disagree with you that Koresh was harmless. His practice of taking the women unto himself, and using the young women was totally wrong. His assumption of the role of spiritual leader was severely flawed. I'm not saying that it's wrong for people to commune up if they wish. I'm not saying it's wrong to have a spiritual leader who isn't ordained. But that person should be a level headed individual who is open to debate and true soul searching. Koresh seems to have set himself up as close to omnipotent. That was terribly destructive to those around him.

If it weren't for these major flaws, I would agree that mentioning the SDA angle would be far more appropriate.

Koresh didn't seem to be violent. He did seem to be a good neighbor. But that isn't the whole picture. In other ways he was a real idiot.

Despite this, I do not think he or his group deserved to be attacked the way they were. I support our government in many ways. In others I am totally embarassed to have such a government represent me.

[Aurelius]

This must be your first post. What has it got to do with this thread?

[RLK]

Quit trying to link them to a church that didn't condone anything they were doing! SDAs do not live in communes. They do not share wives. They do not approve of sex with young girls. They do not support the theory that David Koresh was Christ.

---------------------------

Uh, how much evidence is there that the Davidians believed and did this. Much of this is propaganda released after Waco to retroactively justify the original attack. Be careful what you believe and state as fact, pilgrim.

[DoughtyOne]

Is this a grade school holiday? If not why aren't you in school? Geez you two loons, got nothing better to do than exhibit your ignorance this afternoon?

[crystalk]

You are now being told that they are all four from friendly fire, that others who were at Waco have been killed by friendly fire since then, and that at least one prominent other man wounded on 2/28/93 was also due entirely to friendly fire.

My main motive for still occasionally sounding this note, other than that no justice has been done and the cover-up remains in place, apparently with the Missouri duo of Danforth & Ashcroft heavily involved--

is precisely that JANET RENO, the BUTCHERESS OF WACO, who hid out by cruising around drunk for 4 hrs or so in a TAXICAB while Waco burned, is not only still alive and loose, but is running for governor of Florida against the best gov. we have ever had here, JEB BUSH!

[x]

What has changed since Waco?

What has been done to prevent such a thing from happening again?

[Tymesup]

Agreed Reno is a F up. What do you think should be done about that?

[A CA Guy]

I am extreemly conservative and clear headed unlike some here. I am not defending Reno. For the parents to go into that situation with their kids is like Jim Jones all over again. You have to be a nut to think it is normal to NOT come out when the FBI knocks at the door. All they had to do was walk out.

My cousin is married to a man who's brother died at Waco and he appeared with Larry King over this issue. I told them the same thing. It's ashame his brother got mixed up with a nutty cult. Nobody likes how it ended, but they even know it was nuts to stay their.

Question?: How many here would drag their children into that situation and remain there?

[sinkspur]

Koresh & co. are probably decent, harmless, even beneficial and thus deserve the benefit of the doubt!

Vernon Howell committed statutory rape of underage girls. That their mothers consented does not mitigate his crimes in the eyes of the law.

Howell had a death wish for himself and all his followers.

One nut was all that was needed in a situation like that. That there were two (Janet Reno being the other and she had the superior firepower) led to the death of 80 people.

[Aurelius]

You are absolutely right, people should never be allowed to forget what Reno did, neither to the Davidians nor to innocent victims in Florida when she was State AG there, before going to D.C.

I noticed on today's Newsmax that Rosie O'Donnell is going to be fund-raising for Reno's campaign.

[DoughtyOne]

I'd like to defend myself, but it is true that it is very difficult to know what was fact and what was fiction when it comes to the Davidian family life. We do need to suspect about everything we've been told when it comes to the family life. I do believe there is some creedence to these charges, but then that's not knowing for sure is it.

[A CA Guy]

I can't believe she wasn't forced to leave the post. If she wasn't a handicapped person and a big lesbian I think she would have been gone.

She should have had the shame to leave on her own. No class or sense of shame at all in that woman.

[verity]

Give it a rest!

[A CA Guy]

Bono was a nice guy. It is ashame he died.

[crystalk]

There, there, D.O. Now you are coming around.

But you should be aware that there is only the flimsiest evidence of any of the serious slanders against Koresh having been true, even the one you quote about his underage girls.

He married his wife, Rachel, when she was 14, with the permission of her parents under Texas law this is perfectly OK.

That he had sex with other women, and possibly children by them, may also be true but that is hardly a rarity today, and when you look at the claims that some were under 14 (Texas de facto age for consent) the evidence seems to just dry up and blow away...

Even if every word of the govt. slander against Koresh had been true, it would hardly have warranted the murder of him and 90 of his friends.

[Marine Inspector]

use of CS gas which was banned for use against foreign enemies by an international agreement in 1969.

So far no one I have spoken with, can produce a copy of this international agreement, can you?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning Waco, I just what to see this so called agreement.

[coloradan]

You have to be a nut to think it is normal to NOT come out when the FBI knocks at the door. All they had to do was walk out.

The ATF went in shooting, not knocking on the door. They murdered the guy on the water tower by shots fired from the helicopter. And when the news came on, the ATF side was nothing but lies, such as that the Davidians "ambushed" the "peaceful" warrant servers. The ATF didn't even have the warrant in their possession!! The ATF gave the Davidians zero reason to trust them and zero reason to come out.

[crystalk]

The Davidians believed that David Koresh was a m'shiyach, an anointed one, chosen for a specific salvific role by God and often to involve suffering for the sake of others, and/or martyrdom.

Never had Koresh claimed to be Jesus Christ, or any kind of return or reincarnation of Jesus Christ, indeed as a Christian he would have considered that a great blasphemy. He simply said that he, himself, had a role ordained by God and that he and his community would be anointed ones, probably to die, at the hands of the most powerful empire on earth, which they did do. He had even predicted that tanks would be sent, which they were, and which seemed so weird that a few of his followers left when he said that...

[A CA Guy]

I don't know what planet you live on, but here on earth they were living in a cult like compound. If the FBI came to my door and asked me to come out, I would.
Maybe they are wrong to ask me out of my house, but that can be addressed later. I don't go get the family and kids dead over the issue. That's just plain nuts!

I've been pulled over before by six police cars with several cops with guns. The reason was there was a robbery in our area and my car was the exact match for the one in the crime. I did not know that. But I followed what they said and was fine. I was shook up with the guns and all, but I understood.
I didn't make them force me out of the car. That would be ignorant and stupid to be generous. I managed to NOT get myself killed and they could have also.

So the people at Waco handed their kids a death sentence! That is terrible.

[sinkspur]

and the print is the same size as that for Crawford.

Well, on MY Texas map, Crawford is listed with a population of 631; my map also doesn't list any bumps in the road with populations of less than 100 people.

Crawford is at least six times as large as Axtell or Elk. To draw an equivalence (for what reason, I couldn't begin to fathom) is erroneous on your part.

[A CA Guy]

There was an earlier time when they were asked to come out and they resisted. This is like Rodney King dropping his shorts and telling the cops to kiss his a$$ when told to get down.

[crystalk]

How sure are you that THAT was not related to Waco? I have serious allegations in my files that Bono was murdered.

[RLK]

I am extreemly conservative and clear headed unlike some here. I am not defending Reno. For the parents to go into that situation with their kids is like Jim Jones all over again. You have to be a nut to think it is normal to NOT come out when the FBI knocks at the door. All they had to do was walk out.

-------------------------

Uh, fool, the FBI didn't knock at the door. They began with a full scale assault which was shown on the evening news. Koresh was readily accessable and could be freequently found walking about on the street. He was an occasional visitor to the sheriff's office. There was no reason for any of what happened to happen, except the feds wanted it.

[A CA Guy]

Yeah I heard they were uprooting major trees all day and planting them in front of him hoping he would hit one. LOL

I almost need to be illegaly medicated with a tinfoiled hat to go with Bono being a murdered.

[sinkspur]

You are now being told that they are all four from friendly fire, that others who were at Waco have been killed by friendly fire since then, and that at least one prominent other man wounded on 2/28/93 was also due entirely to friendly fire.

Sorry. Your word alone ain't convincing.

[DoughtyOne]

No Crystal, I'm not coming around.  I've been studying this case since it's inception.  And making the case for Koresh to be a model citizen is a no go.  He professed to be a man of God.  Then even by your own admission, he did things that were by no means Christlike.

What the government did was wrong.  But things Koresh was doing, were wrong also.

As far as I am concerned Koresh is a minor issue here.  There simply was no reason to mount a full assult on the Davidian buildings.  Exterminating the men women and children at Waco was a crime.  Anyone associated with it should be incarcerated, including Hillary, Hubble, Foster and Reno.

[crystalk]

Furthermore this warrant, which was left back at the station, did not say what they were coming to get, who they were coming to arrest, why they were going to search, etc? It made no mention of firearms or drugs, but only said that some person may have provided firearms to aliens who were not legally in the USA...

weird charge, that, when it was known that about half the persons in there were either British or Australian citizens, possibly overstayed on tourist or student visas, and that guns and firearms related paraphernalia were being assembled for sale at gun shows across Texas!

The three men, and the gun inventory, who were involved in this had all left for a show at 6 am that Sunday morning, which is why the BATF held off until almost 9! They were AFRAID that some of the guns MIGHT be used against them.

[A CA Guy]

Not at first. They made a move after how many days that they could have come out? Nearly a hundred, I don't exactly recall? Maybe 2400 hours and 125,000 minutes to just think about opening the door and comming out.

[prambo]

I don't believe one word of your BS.

The FBI is NOT the law in this country, the Constitution and BOR provide that.

Anyone who opens their door to these goofs is the real nut. Amazing that one day before SEP 11 they were the most discredited bunch of buffoons and scumbags in the country, and the next day they are infallible.

Get your head screwed on straight and give me a call.

Another member of the "gubmint and POO-lice are always right" crowd. Sheesh!

prambo