Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Calico: A 200,000-year Old Site In The Americas?
ASA On Line ^ | unknown

Posted on 12/17/2001 2:22:22 PM PST by blam

Calico: A 200,000-year old site in the Americas?

New World archaeological sites inferred to be even slightly older than the 11.5 ka Clovis complexes have been controversial; so claims for a 200 ka site in North America have heretofore been treated with substantial disdain. But the acceptance of Monte Verde and Diring may soon change that.

The classic "ancient site" in the New World is "Calico," located in the Central Mojave Desert of California (Shlemon and Budinger, 1990). Two issues have dogged acceptance of Calico by mainstream archaeologists: (1) the authenticity of the artifacts; are they truly the product of human manufacture, or merely naturally produced "geofacts?" and (2) the obvious pre-Clovis age of the deposits (see, for example, lengthy discussions in Leakey and others, 1968; Haynes, 1973; Bryan, 1978; Taylor and Payen, 1975; Carter, 1980; Meighen, 1983; Patterson, 1983; and Budinger and Simpson, 1985).

Thought to be about 200 ka old, the deeply buried chert and chalcedony tools of Calico are usually dismissed as being artifacts. However, if shown to respected Old World archaeologists, many Calico assemblages are readily described as typical Paleolithic implements. Regardless, when told that the ancient tools come from the New World, these same archaeologists then often reject their original interpretation! So much for unbiased reasoning in science! Nevertheless, although it will take time, the pre-Clovis Monte Verde site in Chile and the 260 ka Diring site in Siberia may well provide a "stepping stone" for mainstream archaeological acceptance of the Calico site.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial
KEYWORDS: acrossatlanticice; americas; archaeology; australia; bering; brucebradley; clovis; dennisstanford; dillehay; dna; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; history; mtdna; multiregionalism; neandertal; paleontology; preclovis; precolumbian; primates; replacement; solutreans
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-134 next last
I will post a number of related articles on this thread as it progresses. I do believe these sites are this old.
1 posted on 12/17/2001 2:22:22 PM PST by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: LostTribe;SurferDoc;Right Whale;sawsalimb
Targeting Early Man Sites

Though Calico and many other previously inferred pre-Clovis sites may ultimately be accepted as "legitimate," the real challenge is to predict the general location and to actively explore other such sites. But where? Logically, they should occur on surfaces about 200 ka old. But such surfaces are rare owing to rapid fluvial dissection or to later covering by sediments. Indeed, most of the world's geomorphic surfaces are no older than Holocene (~10.5 ka). There are exceptions, however. For example, some remnant, high-level alluvial fans in the Mojave Desert are more than about 100 ka old, recognized by their tightly packed desert pavement, their dark- colored patina (desert varnish), and their strongly developed surface soils (relict paleosols; Shlemon, 1978). But such desert surfaces are, and were, inherently inhospitable for continued human occupance. Therefore, few high concentrations of undisturbed artifacts are likely to be found.

In contrast, the most promising, unequivocal Early Man targets are buried, often under many meters of sediments. Only a fraction of the ancient surfaces (buried paleosols) are ever seen, usually in fortuitous road or mining cuts. The most favorable Early Man targets are old shorelines that mark the junction of diverse environments, and thus are particularly susceptible to artifact concentration and preservation (Budinger, 1992).

Though rare, such paleo-environments may also be exposed in natural cuts. Ironically, one of the best Early Man "targets" are natural exposures that occur very near the Calico site. Indeed, the full acceptance of Calico may not come from collecting more on-site artifacts, but from systematic observation and possible excavations in the nearby Manix Lake beds (Shlemon and Budinger, 1990). The stratigraphy of the well exposed Manix beds is remarkable, for these beds range in age from about 20 ka to 290 ka, recording climatic and sedimentation change in this part of California for much of middle and late Quaternary time; they interfinger distal fan sediments that emanated from the Calico Mountains and other nearby "quarry sites;" they bear several datable ash beds, one of which is an estimated 185 ka, tantalizing close to the 200 ka age for the Calico artifact-bearing beds; and they contain abundant vertebrate fossils. In sum, the Manix Lake beds are a classic Early Man target. They may indeed be the place for a new breed of archaeologists and their geoscience colleagues to explore unabashedly for pre-Clovis sites. Such endeavors are no longer far fetched, particularly in light of the recent Monte Verde and Diring discoveries.
Accordingly, it appears that we will soon see a "quiet revolution" in New World archaeology whereby mainstream archaeologists reinterpret their data and thus "document" pre-Clovis sites. If so, New World archaeology will take a giant step forward, perhaps analogous to the now-famous 1970's "plate tectonic revolution" in geology.

2 posted on 12/17/2001 2:26:10 PM PST by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam
Thanks for the article. Very interesting. My grandmother insists we were always here. Since I am part of the tribe(Athabascan) that supposably came here 35,000 years ago from Asia on a landbridge. These people make these theorys and teach them as fact.
3 posted on 12/17/2001 2:29:10 PM PST by Iwentsouth
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam
Push it back,push it back.Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back!
4 posted on 12/17/2001 2:29:29 PM PST by tet68
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Sabertooth;white rose;rightofrush;Le-roy;okie01;MarkWar
The Diring Yuriakh Site, Siberia

The year 1997 saw another break through, albeit indirect, for acceptance of pre-Clovis man in the Americas. Published in the prestigious journal "Science," Michael Waters and colleagues dated the so-called "Diring" site, a lower Paleolithic assemblage of stone artifacts in central Siberia (Waters and others, 1997). Based on deep trench exposures, the stone tools are reportedly of undoubted human manufacture. They occur in eolian sands, sediments amenable to thermoluminescence (TL) dating techniques. The cultural horizons prove to be about 260 ka old, almost 250 ka older than artifacts recovered from unconformably overlying sediments, a stratigraphic relationship similar to several, heretofore generally rejected Early Man sites in the Americas.

Uncertainties always accompany various dating techniques, and hence Diring will likely be questioned. However, the dates were obtained by a well-known geologist, a specialist in the field of TL analysis and one of the co-authors. Waters, himself, is a distinguished archaeologist. He also teaches at a prestigious American university, and thus gives substantial credibility to the 260 ka age for the Diring site.

The Diring dates have profound implications for dating the possible entry of pre-Clovis man into the Americas, for they imply that ancient stone tool makers lived and perhaps even prospered in the harsh Siberian environment; and that crossing into the New World via Beringia may have indeed taken place long before the blossoming of Clovis cultures.

5 posted on 12/17/2001 2:32:34 PM PST by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Iwentsouth
These people make these theorys and teach them as
fact.

Evidence be damned, right?

6 posted on 12/17/2001 2:33:50 PM PST by gcruse
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: blam
The Monte Verde Site in Chile

So contentious have been the arguments about possible pre-Clovis man in the Americas that it appeared inevitable that acceptance would only occur if such a site contained skeletons or artifacts of unambiguous human origin, was well dated both by stratigraphic context and by unequivocal numeric dating techniques, and was excavated by highly regarded traditional archaeologists. Such a site has finally been found, not in North America geographically close to a presumed Beringia migration route, but at Monte Verde in Chile (Dillehay, 1966; Meltzer, 1997).

By 1997, some 80 earth-science specialists visited Monte Verde, many participated in the excavations, and still others collected samples and conducted laboratory analyses. The results are remarkable: now documented are 70 species of plants collected by Early Man, the remnants of mastodon meat, the remains of wooden canoes, mortars, and hundreds of stone artifacts including projectile points and cutting and scraping tools. Additionally, some 30 radiocarbon dates were obtained from abundant charcoal, wood and ivory found within the artifact-bearing strata. These dates indicate that Monte Verde was occupied about 12.5 ka ago, a full thousand years before Clovis (Meltzer, 1997). Now, perhaps, even the most skeptic, pre-Clovis non-believers may well have been converted.

But questions still remain: How long did it take for man to migrate from Beringia to Monte Verde? Did this occur thousands of years before 12.5 ka ago? If so, could such migration(s) have taken place during times of maximum ice extent, even though the environment would have been extremely inhospitable. Or did such migrations really take place before the last major glaciation, perhaps before about 20 ka, or even 35 ka ago? Prior to Monte Verde, the conventional answer would be "where is the evidence for such Early Man?" In reality, such evidence may well have been seen previously, but largely dismissed owing to the traditional dogma of "no pre-Clovis sites in the Americas." Accordingly, with Monte Verde now reasonably accepted, it seems likely that traditional archaeologists will soon "find" other pre-Clovis sites in the New World.

(There is another site near Monte Verde that is believed to date to 35-50,000 years old)

7 posted on 12/17/2001 2:38:15 PM PST by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Marie;vannrox;Ditter;Ernest_at_the_Beach;horsewhispersc
Targeting Early Man Sites

Though Calico and many other previously inferred pre-Clovis sites may ultimately be accepted as "legitimate," the real challenge is to predict the general location and to actively explore other such sites. But where? Logically, they should occur on surfaces about 200 ka old. But such surfaces are rare owing to rapid fluvial dissection or to later covering by sediments. Indeed, most of the world's geomorphic surfaces are no older than Holocene (~10.5 ka). There are exceptions, however. For example, some remnant, high-level alluvial fans in the Mojave Desert are more than about 100 ka old, recognized by their tightly packed desert pavement, their dark- colored patina (desert varnish), and their strongly developed surface soils (relict paleosols; Shlemon, 1978). But such desert surfaces are, and were, inherently inhospitable for continued human occupance. Therefore, few high concentrations of undisturbed artifacts are likely to be found.

In contrast, the most promising, unequivocal Early Man targets are buried, often under many meters of sediments. Only a fraction of the ancient surfaces (buried paleosols) are ever seen, usually in fortuitous road or mining cuts. The most favorable Early Man targets are old shorelines that mark the junction of diverse environments, and thus are particularly susceptible to artifact concentration and preservation (Budinger, 1992).

Though rare, such paleo-environments may also be exposed in natural cuts. Ironically, one of the best Early Man "targets" are natural exposures that occur very near the Calico site. Indeed, the full acceptance of Calico may not come from collecting more on-site artifacts, but from systematic observation and possible excavations in the nearby Manix Lake beds (Shlemon and Budinger, 1990). The stratigraphy of the well exposed Manix beds is remarkable, for these beds range in age from about 20 ka to 290 ka, recording climatic and sedimentation change in this part of California for much of middle and late Quaternary time; they interfinger distal fan sediments that emanated from the Calico Mountains and other nearby "quarry sites;" they bear several datable ash beds, one of which is an estimated 185 ka, tantalizing close to the 200 ka age for the Calico artifact-bearing beds; and they contain abundant vertebrate fossils. In sum, the Manix Lake beds are a classic Early Man target. They may indeed be the place for a new breed of archaeologists and their geoscience colleagues to explore unabashedly for pre-Clovis sites. Such endeavors are no longer far fetched, particularly in light of the recent Monte Verde and Diring discoveries. Accordingly, it appears that we will soon see a "quiet revolution" in New World archaeology whereby mainstream archaeologists reinterpret their data and thus "document" pre-Clovis sites. If so, New World archaeology will take a giant step forward, perhaps analogous to the now-famous 1970's "plate tectonic revolution" in geology.

8 posted on 12/17/2001 2:42:01 PM PST by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: blam
Thanks for the heads up blam, it's about time everything's coming out in the open. I doubt very much that the Vatican will respond as they never have in the past, for people would start going huh! lol
9 posted on 12/17/2001 2:53:04 PM PST by horsewhispersc
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: spycatcher;callisto;ada coddington;JudyB1938;Lancey Howard
Calico Site Update

The Calico Early Man site, located east of Barstow, California, has been an archaeological site of some distinction ever since Louis Leakey visited it in 1964 shortly after its discovery. Although no human remains such as bone or teeth have been unearthed as yet, over 60,000 tools and flakes have been collected. Most of these are kept in the San Bernardino County Museum under the watchful eye of Ruth Simpson, Museum Director and archaeologist. There exists a debate over whether the artifacts were made naturally or by the hand of man. Many experts in the scientific community are now convinced of the authenticity of the site.

The latest dating of the alluvial deposit where the implements reside has been set at 135,000 years old! This establishes the approximate geological date of the artifact-bearing level. You might say, "Sure, the geologic level may be that old but how do you know when the tools were actually made?" Good question! In 1981 scientists Ku and Bischoff used the uranium-thorium method to yield a date of 200,000 years (+/- 20,000) for the artifacts at the bottom of the geologic level in question. The topmost soil layer was estimated at 100,000 years. Therefore, the artifacts which were made and then covered over by later deposits have to be older than the youngest layer above them. Fred Budinger, assistant director of the site, says that this "new date is scientifically important because it provides a second independent age assessment of these beds."

This date is unusual because it is believed that the first people arrived in North America during the last ice-age, approximately 20,000 - 30,000 years ago, crossing the land-bridge at the Bering Sound, from northeastern Siberia into Alaska. The oldest documented human cultures in North America are Sandia (15000 BC), Clovis (12000 BC) and Folsom (8000 BC).

10 posted on 12/17/2001 2:56:26 PM PST by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Dream Weaver;teresat;LarryLied;janus;boris;cva66snipe
Primitive human toolmakers hunted in Siberia

WASHINGTON (AP) Primitive humans thrived in the harsh, cold climate of northern Siberia 300,000 years ago, eons earlier than once believed possible, as indicated by the dating of stone tools found in frozen tundra.
The finding means that primitive humans were clever enough to live in one of the most severe climates on Earth far earlier than most experts had thought possible, said Michael Waters of Texas A&M University, the head of a field expedition to Siberia.
"Prior to this, the oldest known occupants of Siberia were about 30,000 years ago," said Waters. "Before this, it was thought that only (anatomically) modern humans could have lived there."
He added, "It shows us that people even in that early time had the skills to deal with the severe cold."

The study, to be published Friday in the journal Science, adds to a growing body of evidence that primitive humans were more intelligent, organized and resourceful than previously believed. Other scientists reported this week the discovery in Germany of some 400,000-year-old spears and evidence of a skilled hunting culture.
Waters said these findings are a surprise because most researchers had thought sophisticated survival skills came into wide use among ancient humanlike animals only with the appearance about 150,000 years ago of anatomically modern humans.

The Siberian site studied by Waters and his team is called Diring Yuriakh. It is located on a plateau above the Lena River, near the town of Yakutsk about 480 km south of the Arctic Circle.

Russian archaeologists first excavated the site in 1982 and discovered that it was an ancient quarry that had been used during several different periods of human occupation over many thousands of years.
Waters and colleagues from the University of Illinois were invited to determine the age of the oldest site using a technique that counts the number of electrons trapped in the grains of quartzite sand.
The Americans took a number of samples, said Waters, and determined that the crude stone tools were between sediment layers 260,000 to 370,000 years old.

Waters said the weather in Siberia 300,000 years ago is thought to have been very much like the present-day weather. Winter temperatures at Diring Yuriakh routinely drop to minus 50, and the soil freezes down to about 1 meter.
No bones, animal or human, have been found in Diring Yuriakh, and Waters said it is uncertain how long the ancient humans lived there. Their primary food source also is unknown, he said, although the nearby Lena River probably had fish, and large animals, such as elephant-like mammoths, lived in the area.
"We know very little about these humans," said Waters. He said it is not known which of the premodern human species could have lived at the Siberian site 300,000 years ago.

Some scientists have said the crude stone tools found at Diring Yuriakh were actually made by natural processes, not by human hand. But archaeologist Rob Bonnichsen of Oregon State University said he believes the site analyzed by the Waters team clearly was once a home to an ancient people.
"It is obvious that this is a human site," said Bonnichsen. The fist-size stone tools recovered from the site are thought to be quartz stones that were shaped by pounding them against other stones until a sharp edge was developed. The process left markings that could not be made by natural forces, said Waters.

But the ultimate proof came when scientists found a debris pile at what may have been a toolmaker's work station. In the debris pile were distinctive quartz flakes. Some of the flakes could be fitted exactly into the sharpened faces of some of the stone tools, said Waters.

11 posted on 12/17/2001 3:06:28 PM PST by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: blam
There has been and continues to be a continuous overlay of micrometeorite dust over the entire planet. In the course of a few megayears this is a substantial amount of new material. If we could strip the top ten feet of soil off the entire planet, what would we find? In some places airborne sediment is a lot more than this.
12 posted on 12/17/2001 3:07:49 PM PST by RightWhale
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: blam
I agree with you. The stupid idea that rasoning man just appeared 6000 years ago is absurb.
13 posted on 12/17/2001 3:13:19 PM PST by vannrox
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam
These reports don't make much sense. THe Siberian layer with a date of 260K was just below layers dated 10K. The article said a lot of these "earliest sites" are like this. How do we know that the makers didn't live 10 K ago and BURY there implements, putting the implements in the 260K old soil?

Lumenessence (sic) is also a suspect method of dating. It gives only maximum dates. The actual date of an artifact could easily be 1/20th that date.

14 posted on 12/17/2001 3:17:46 PM PST by Ahban
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: vannrox
THE AMERICAN DISCOVERY OF EUROPE!

Wow, that's an inflammatory title, and we must be very wary here. Who could be promoting such an idea? The perpetrator is J. Forbes, a professor of Native American Studies at the University of California-Davis. The title above is, in fact, the title of Forbes' forthcoming book. Forbes recently gave a talk on his thesis in Berkeley, and the evidence below is based on a newspaper account of his talk. The account began with:

"It is a common perception, and one which is taught in most history classes, that the Europeans 'discovered' America. Some scholars, however, postulate that it may be quite the opposite: Native Americans went across the Atlantic and 'found' their European counterparts first." Now for the claimed evidence:

Carribean people were the Polynesians of the Americas. Excellent mariners, they built sophisticated sailing vessels 80-feet long, carrying up to 80 people. With the favorable winds and currents, they had the capabilities of reaching Europe.

There are tales of "redmen" arriving on the west coast of Portugal during the Middle Ages.

Columbus himself, during a visit to Ireland, noted the presence of people resembling North Americans.

Columbus also made notes on Indians in canoes wrecked off the coast of Germany in 1410.

Inuits (Eskimos) are said to have landed in the Orkneys, off Scotland. Old Inuit harpoon heads have been dug up in Ireland and Scotland.

(Kluepfel, Brian; "Native Americans May Have Found Europe, Says Scholar," Berkeley Voice, January 28, 1993. Cr. P.F. Young.

Comment. Obviously, stronger evidence will be required to convince most archeologists. And what about all the purported claims for early contacts with the Americas by Celts, Phonecians, Hebrews, Romans, Africans, etc,?

15 posted on 12/17/2001 3:20:28 PM PST by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: blam
I have always thought that the reason "old sites" were not found it the Northern Hemisphere was that no one looked. Old sites were obviously in Africa, Asia, etc.

I would look at the edge of old lake beds, river banks, and naturally, caves. I suspect that someone with a "trained eye" could find many interesting artifacts. As an example, looking for shark's teeth. Once one has walked the beach where they are, in a week or so, they just pop out at you. I was standing with one between my feet, and I didn't see it. My friend who lived there said, "I was standing on one." The same is true for pottery shards. Once you look for a while, where there are some, you see them everywhere.

16 posted on 12/17/2001 3:21:52 PM PST by Citizen Tom Paine
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: blam
THE 50,000-YEAR-OLD AMERICANS OF PEDRA FURADA

French archeologists (not American) have established to the satisfaction of most European archeologists (not American) that humans were present in Brazil at least 50,000 years ago. F. Parenti, with N. Guidon, presented their data at a recent Paris meeting. The main site studied was the sandstone rock shelter of Pedra Furada, which is one of several hundred painted rock shelters discovered in northeastern Brazil. Guidon began her work in 1978; Parenti, in 1984. The fourvolume, 7-kilogram report (actually Parenti's doctoral thesis) concentrates on three lines of evidence:

A coherent series of 54 radiocarbon dates ranging from 5,000 to 50,000 years.

Crudely flaked stones, some 6,000 of which are deemed of human manufacture, even when the most stringent criteria are applied. Many of these came from Pleistocene strata 50,000 years old or older.

Some 50 Pleistocene "structures" consisting of artificial arrangements of stones, some burned, some accompanied by charcoal. These are likely ancient hearths.

(Bahn, Paul G.; "50,000-Year-Old Americans of Pedra Furada," Nature, 362:114, 1993.)

Comment. With the Brazil and Chile (Monte Verde) sites looking more and more convincing, it is reasonable to ask why even older sites have not been found in North America, which is nearer the famous Bering Land Bridge. As a matter of fact, controverted human artifacts have been found at such sites as Calico Hills, California, which are claimed to be much older than 50,000 years. It will be interesting to see how the Pedra Furada data are received in the States.

17 posted on 12/17/2001 3:24:33 PM PST by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Iwentsouth;blam
Wow, you sure did go south. Seriously, I love these posts. Thanks, blam. Will be watching for what follows.
18 posted on 12/17/2001 3:40:40 PM PST by Bahbah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: RightWhale
"In some places airborne sediment is a lot more than this."

Yup. I've read that (the) Ukraine has a topsoil depth of 150 feet. It blew in there over the eons from other places.

19 posted on 12/17/2001 3:55:26 PM PST by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: blam
What the hell is ka?
20 posted on 12/17/2001 4:01:53 PM PST by Texas_Jarhead
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Texas_Jarhead
What the hell is ka?

An excellent question. k stands for 1000 in the SI system. a stands for year [anno].

21 posted on 12/17/2001 4:05:06 PM PST by RightWhale
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: blam
TOOL TIME ON CACTUS HILL

In search of the earliest Americans
Tim Beardsly
SEARCHING FOR CLUES

to human occupation of Cactus Hill are archaeologist Michael F. Johnson (above) and his helpers. Artifacts found there may be 14,000 years old.

On a scorching Saturday in late August in southern Virginia, at the end of a dirt track leading through fields of corn and soybeans, archaeologist Michael F. Johnson sits in the shade of oak and hickory trees eating his packed lunch. Nearby, bright-blue tarpaulins protect excavations that have brought Johnson here most weekends for the past several years.

The object of Johnson's passion is a dune of blown sand known as Cactus Hill. Between bites, Johnson is debating with visiting archaeologist Stuart J. Fiedel what the place was like 14,000 years ago. It must have been ideal for a summer camp, Johnson thinks. Facing north, it would have been cooled by winds coming off glaciers hundreds of miles distant. He offers me an inverted plastic bucket to sit on. The dune would have been dry, he continues, a welcome relief from the surrounding insect-infested bogs. The Nottoway River was at the time only a stone's throw away. There were lots of animals: mastodon, elk, bison, deer, perhaps moose and caribou.

And there were people, maintains Johnson (who is employed by the Fairfax County Park Authority), hunter-gatherers whose descendants may have given rise to Native American tribes. Johnson has found at Cactus Hill quartzite blades, blade fragments and both halves of a broken "point" suitable for a spear, fully nine inches below the well-defined Clovis horizon at the site. That level, recognized all over the country by its characteristic and abundant stone-tool technology, was created 13,000 years ago, according to Fiedel, who conducts surveys for John Milner Associates. (Several studies in the past few years indicate that the conventional date of 11,000 years, based on radiocarbon dating, is a significant underestimate.) Only in recent years has a long investigation at Monte Verde in Chile finally convinced most archaeologists that humans were in the Americas well before Clovis times, so a new potential pre-Clovis site is an important rarity.

In a separate, adjacent dig at Cactus Hill, Joseph M. McAvoy and Lynn D. McAvoy of the Nottoway River Survey have found numerous blade-type tools, some associated with charcoal fragments that tested at 15,000 and 16,000 years old by radiocarbon dating or 18,000 to 19,000 years old by Fiedel's recalibration. Johnson is excited that McAvoy's larger excavation and his own have found "fully comparable" artifacts from below the Clovis horizon. Cactus Hill is "one of the best candidate pre-Clovis sites to come down in a long time," says C. Vance Haynes, Jr., of the University of Arizona, a leading scholar of Paleo-Indian cultures.

On this day Fiedel is listening hard to Johnson's arguments in favor of pre-Clovis occupation, but he is frowning. Johnson says 14,000 years is a "conservative" estimate of the age of his oldest finds. Fiedel agrees that Johnson's fragments are clearly human artifacts, but he is not persuaded by his dates. "You can't be sure stuff hasn't moved around," he says later. Burrowing wasps and rodents, notoriously, can move objects through sand. McAvoy's published evidence of a pre-Clovis technology at Cactus Hill is "fairly convincing," Fiedel says, but the radiocarbon dates seem almost too old, suggesting evidence of fire 5,000 years before the Clovis culture exploded--a time when few other signs of humans have been documented. Haynes, too, notes that there could be unrecognized errors in the dating of the Cactus Hill layers.

Johnson is undeterred. The pieces of his prized ancient broken point came from the same level but were found several feet apart: because animals would hardly move the separated fragments vertically the same distance, they are probably in their original bed, he argues. Moreover, the stone and the style of workmanship differs from that of Clovis material. "I'm really confident it doesn't fit into Clovis," he says. Johnson's opinion on tool styles counts for something; he has taught himself how to make "Clovis" points that can fool most people.

Fiedel and the other visitors at Cactus Hill this day continue to spin scenarios about the earliest Americans as they take up tools and patiently skim successive half-inch layers of sand from a more recent horizon. Perhaps the inhabitants were members of a hypothetical proto-Clovis culture, Fiedel muses. He observes that some blades like Johnson's and the McAvoys' have recently come to light in South Carolina. But when did the makers arrive from Eurasia? The land bridge that connected it to Alaska was often covered by glaciers. The Cactus Hill archaeologists visiting Johnson's dig, all donating their time, ponder the conundrums as they patiently mark every visible fragment of stone and photograph each exposed level, then sift through the removed material for anything they might have missed the first time. The heat is daunting. As the afternoon wears on, the debate between Johnson and Fiedel moves first one way, then the other, like a tug-of-war.

The debate might never be resolved. The site's owner, Union Camp Corporation, has halted sand mining at Cactus Hill, provided some security and allowed the archaeologists complete access, but time presses. Johnson grimaces as he lifts a tarp to show a ruined trench where the Clovis horizon has been crudely dug out by looters in search of stone points, which can sell for thousands of dollars each. In the process, the pillagers have destroyed layers above and below Clovis. Cactus Hill may be among the earliest inhabited sites in the U.S. But if point rustlers continue to run ahead of the volunteers, science may forever be unable to prove it.

(I've read subsequent reports that state that the tools found there are similar to the technology present at the time on the Iberian peninsula. Early Basque?)

22 posted on 12/17/2001 4:37:32 PM PST by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: blam
Scientific America did a great review on these issues in their September, 2000 issue. They included a great map here showing the various sites (some are now identified as 30,000 years old) and possible migration routes.

(I've read subsequent reports that state that the tools found there are similar to the technology present at the time on the Iberian peninsula. Early Basque?)

Note the Atlantic crossing route. It has now been theorized that Cro-Magnon Man's (from Iberia and Southern France) Solutrean stone points and Clovis points are VERY similar.

23 posted on 12/17/2001 5:24:16 PM PST by Alas Babylon!
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Alas Babylon!
Thanks, Good link.
24 posted on 12/17/2001 5:33:43 PM PST by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: blam
S.C. dig challenges theory of first Americans

Evidence suggests a diverse wave of migrants trekked here earlier than experts once believed . . . By HENRY EICHEL Columbia Bureau [name of paper unknown -ed.]

MARTIN, S.C. -- From a pair of 6-foot-deep pits, a team of archaeologists and volunteers has spent the last month sifting hundreds of tiny stone flakes from the gray sand, trying to unravel one of the continent's oldest mysteries: Who got here first?

For decades, most scientists believed the first Americans were big-game hunters who crossed a now-disappeared land bridge across the Bering Strait from Siberia during the last ice age about 11,500 years ago. Supposedly, today's American Indians are all descended from these ancient people. But the discoveries at the Topper Site in rural Allendale County, about 85 miles southwest of Columbia, are part of a growing body of evidence that could overturn that theory.

Scientists are starting to believe that people may have arrived in the New World thousands to tens of thousands of years earlier, in many waves of migrations and from many different places. Stone Age America may have been a more crowded and racially diverse place than we thought.

At the heavily wooded dig site earlier this week, University of South Carolina professor Albert Goodyear opened a plastic bag and took out a pale yellow rock about the size of a person's little finger. Pointing to the stone's sharp, beveled edges, Goodyear said, "Nature can't make this; a human being has to do it very carefully. He would have had to take like a split beaver tooth, or a tiny hard bone with a sharp tip, and he'd have to pressure the flakes off. You've got to be good."

The person who worked this piece of rock camped at this spot between 12,000 and 18,000 years ago, and possibly even earlier, said Goodyear, director of the Topper excavations. That was a time when huge ice sheets covered what is now the northern United States, and South Carolina was a much colder place, with spruce and fir forests that resembled present-day Canada.

Mammoth and mastodon roamed the forests, as did now-extinct species of bison, camels and tiny horses. "They all would have been here," Goodyear said, "but whether these people used them or not, we don't know." Unlike some other prehistoric sites where archaeologists have found human skeletons, animal bones, charcoal from ancient campfires and even the remnants of huts, none of those things appear to have survived in the acidic soil at the Topper Site. All that has remained are hundreds of small stone blades and the rocks from which they were chipped.

"They're little razor blade-type things," Goodyear said. "People might have set several of them into a wooden or a bone handle and used it as a knife to cut something soft, like fish." They are identical to blades discovered in Siberia that have been proved to be 20,000 years old, he said. Little blades like that were also typically used to groove and splinter antlers, mastodon tusks and wood.

If one could ask these prehistoric people for their biggest artifact, Goodyear said, "they might produce a hardwood spear with a 4-inch long antler tip on it." But, he said, "We won't find any in these sands." This year's dig wraps up today, but Goodyear has his eye on a spot in the Savannah River swamp a half mile to the north, where geologists have dated a peat bog to 18,000 years. "If there are any antler or wood artifacts, they'll be preserved in peat," he said.

Some things can be safely assumed about the people who once camped here. They were hunter-gatherers, because at that time, that's what everyone in the world was. Agriculture didn't catch on in a big way until about 6,000 years ago. So, they wandered a lot, looking for food. They traveled light. They wouldn't have needed much in the way of shelter in the summer, although they may have made huts out of animal hides for the winter. Were they the ancestors of modern Indians?

"There's a good chance they weren't," said Goodyear. "Some of the skulls that are showing up (at other sites) are not the typical Mongoloid types. They could still be from Asia, but from an old archaic population that migrated into the Western Hemisphere and died off." Ted Tsolovlos, 52, of Columbia, one of the 15 volunteers at the site this week, said, "I think ice age man was probably closer to God, in a sense, and that there was something magical about that time. We're finding these certain little facts about this culture. How did they see the world?"

For the past two years, through USC's Institute of Archaeology and Anthropology, Goodyear has recruited volunteers from the public to sign up for a week or more to help with the excavation. They each paid $366, which included camping, lunch and dinner, evening lectures and a T-shirt. "I never thought I would enjoy digging in the dirt. But it's so much fun; you never know what you're going to find next," said Wanda Stover, a 48-year-old Bank of America officer from Charlotte who returned to the site for her second year.

In her pre-teen years, she said, she read Nancy Drew mysteries and other books set around archaeological digs and began a lifetime fascination with the subject. Then last year, she found the Topper Site expedition's Internet page and signed up. Goodyear will start taking applications for next year in January, giving preference to people who have been before. This year's 75 slots filled up by March.

For the next three weeks, geologists from around the country will comb the entire site, which is on land owned by Clariant Corp., a maker of industrial dyes. "They're going to interpret the age of the place based on the geological layers," Goodyear said. "That's a very important study that needs to be done for this site to gain widespread acceptance within the profession." Goodyear has been exploring the site since 1981. It's named for David Topper, a local landowner who first guided Goodyear and fellow USC archaeologist Thomas Charles to it. What made the heavily wooded hillside attractive to archaeologists were the outcroppings of chert, an impure form of flint. "You find a chert quarry, you'll find early man, because they were dependent on these rocks," Goodyear said.

Excavations since 1981 showed the quarry was a magnet for humans, with each layer of soil revealing an earlier culture. Two feet down, Goodyear found several 10,000-year-old spear points, and beneath those, some "blanks'' - rojectile points in their preliminary stages that had been broken and thrown away. "But I had never dreamed there was anything earlier," Goodyear said, because there weren't supposed to have been any people in North America before 11,000 years ago. But in 1998, Goodyear read in an archaeological journal about discoveries at a site called Cactus Hills, 45 miles southeast of Richmond, Va.

There, tests on charcoal from prehistoric campfires, along with stone tools and other evidence, showed that the site was occupied by humans at least 15,000 years ago. Earlier, in southern Chile, archaeologists had discovered the remnants of a 12,500-year-old hunting camp. That encouraged Goodyear to dig some deeper test holes. "In just a few hours," he said, "I was finding things I'd never seen before."

25 posted on 12/17/2001 5:42:28 PM PST by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: blam
Thanks for the heads up blam. Fascinating article. Nothing happens or comes to light by coincedence IMO, and I find it interesting that much is coming to light simultaneously in one generation. Ours! Please do keep us updated, it would be greatly appreciated.
26 posted on 12/17/2001 6:47:53 PM PST by DreamWeaver
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: blam
Bones off coast may date back 13,000 years

The finding on an island off California supports the notion that the first humans in America came by boat

Monday, July 5, 1999
By Richard L. Hill of The Oregonian staff

Three human bones found 40 years ago off the Southern California coast may rewrite the history of the Americas.

Recent radiocarbon dates indicate they are about 13,000 years old. If confirmed, that would make them the oldest remains ever found in North America.

The bones -- two thigh bones and a kneecap -- were found in 1959, buried 30 feet deep in the side wall of Arlington Canyon on Santa Rosa Island in the Channel Islands off Santa Barbara. Phil C. Orr, who was curator of anthropology and paleontology at the Santa Barbara Museum of Natural History, discovered them.

The finding adds support to the theory that at least some of the first humans who came to the New World may have arrived by boat rather than by a land route.

John R. Johnson, current curator of anthropology at the Santa Barbara Museum, where the bones are stored, said Orr was interested in the pygmy mammoths that had become extinct on the Channel Islands at the end of the last ice age.

"Phil was trying to prove that their extinction was no accident -- that humans were out there hunting the mammoth and roasting them in pits," Johnson said.

Orr, who died in 1991, was surveying mammoth bones on the island when he saw a human thigh bone poking out from the side of the canyon. A closer examination revealed the other two bones.

Johnson said Orr, who called his discovery "Arlington Springs Man," obtained a radiocarbon date of 10,000 years from charcoal in the same soil layer that contained the bones. But because of questions about the date's accuracy, he removed the block of earth that contained the bones, wrapped it in plaster and placed it in a museum storage room.

"Phil realized what a stupendous find it was," Johnson said, "so he did the smart thing by archiving that block of earth with the remains for that future time when dating techniques would improve."

Johnson and Don P. Morris, an archaeologist with Channel Islands National Park, recently sent a minute bone fragment to Thomas W. Stafford, a research geochemist who runs the Stafford Research Laboratories in Boulder, Colo., who came up with the 13,000-year-old date.

The researchers also determined that Arlington Springs Man actually is Arlington Springs Woman. They estimated from the length of one thigh bone that the woman was about 5 feet 1 inch tall.

Johnson said field work at the discovery site might provide more information. "Once there is a series of radiocarbon dates obtained in the strata above Arlington Springs Woman, it'll give us more confidence in the dates we have," he said.

Discoveries of such ancient remains are rare. The oldest previous skeletal remains found in North America were those of "Buhla." They were found in 1989 in a gravel quarry near Buhl in south-central Idaho. Only about half of her was recovered, as her pelvis and other lower-limb bones apparently were lost in a rock crusher. Radiocarbon dating put the remains at 10,675 years old.

The oldest remains found in Washington or Oregon are those of Kennewick Man, a virtually complete skeleton found in July 1996 on the banks of the Columbia River in Kennewick, Wash. A radiocarbon date determined the remains to be about 9,300 years old; further testing is planned.

(If the 13,000 year old date holds up, this would be the oldest human skeleton found anywhere in the Americas, North and South. Luzia is dated at 11,500 years old.)

27 posted on 12/17/2001 7:26:01 PM PST by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam

THE GLEN ROSE AND ANTELOPE SPRINGS TRACKS

Here is the remarkable story of ancient human tracks, which evolutionists would rather that you not know about.

Source:  http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/13anc07.htm#Antelope Springs Tracks

 

THE GLEN ROSE TRACKS

There are giant human tracks, in Texas, by dinosaur prints.

In a Cretaceous limestone formation near Glen Rose, Texas, are to be found some remarkable footprints. They are the tracks of giant men! You can go look at them for yourself. (But when you arrive, ask one of the old timers to tell you where to look. As soon as they are exposed, they gradually begin eroding away.)

Glen Rose is located in north central Texas, about 40 miles southwest of the Fort Worth-Dallas metropolitan area. The area has little rainfall; and, for several months each year the Paluxy River is completely dry. From time to time the river changes its course. This occurs at those times when the quiet river becomes a raging torrent. Because the river has such a steep slope (a drop of 17 feet [51.8 dm] per mile), it is the second swiftest river in Texas and quite dangerous in time of heavy rainfall.

Tracks are found in several of the layers of limestone, as they are exposed by river erosion. Man tracks have been found in layers BELOW that of the dinosaur prints! Fossils from land, seashore, and open sea have all been found here.

Human footprints are found above, with, and below prints of bears, saber-toothed tigers, mammoths, and dinosaurs.

THE ANTELOPE SPRINGS TRACKS

Sandaled footprints were found amid trilobites.

Trilobites are small marine creatures that are now extinct. Evolutionists tell us that trilobites are one of the most ancient creatures which have ever lived on Planet Earth, and they existed millions of years before there were human beings. William J. Meister, Sr., a drafting supervisor by trade (and, by the way, a non-Christian), made a hobby of searching for trilobite fossils in the mountains of Utah. On June 1, 1968, he found a human footprint, and there were trilobites in the same rock! The location was Antelope Springs, about 43 miles northwest of Delta, Utah.

Breaking off a large, two-inch thick piece of rock, he hit it on edge with a hammer, and it fell open in his hand. To his great astonishment, he found on one side the footprint of a human being, with trilobites right in the footprint itself! The other half of the rock slab showed an almost perfect mold of a footprint and fossils. Amazingly, the human was wearing a sandal!

The footprint measured 10¼ inches long by 3½ inches wide at the sole [26.035 x 8.89 cm], and 3 inches wide [7.62 cm] at the heel. The heel print was indented in the rock about an eighth of an inch [1.676 cm] more than the sole. It was clearly the right foot, because the sandal was well-worn on the right side of the heel. Several easily visible trilobites were in the footprint. It had stepped on them, pressing them underfoot.

No chance of hand-made "carvings" here, as the evolutionists charge at Glen Rose. The footprint was located halfway up a 2,000-foot mountain face, and Meister had to stop to rest many times as he climbed. Where he found the print, he had to make footholds to stand on, in order to search for trilobites.

Meister mentions that he told Burdick and Carlisle about the site. This is what happened next:

"The first week in August, Dr. Clifford Burdick, a well-traveled consulting geologist of Tucson, Arizona, visited the site of the discovery at Antelope Springs with Mr. Carlisle [a graduate geologist at the University of Colorado]. On this visit Dr. Burdick found a footprint of a barefoot child in the same location as my discovery. He showed my this footprint on August 18.

"The day before, my family and I had met Dr. Burdick at Antelope Springs. While there we found another sandal print. Dr. Burdick continued; and, on Monday, August 19, he informed me by letter that he had found a second child's footprint.

"In addition to my discovery and that of Dr. Burdick's, a friend of mine, George Silver, digging alone in this location, discovered more footprints of a human or human beings, also shod in sandals. His specimen, which he showed to me (I also showed this specimen to Dr. Melvin Clark), had two footprints, one about a half inch [2.54 cm] above and on top of the other.

"Finally Dean Bitter, teacher in the public schools of Salt Lake City, discovered other footprints of human beings wearing sandals much like those found by George Silver and me. Both Dr. Cook and I have seen his specimens found at Antelope Springs, some distance from the site of my discovery."—William J. Meister, Sr., "Discovery of Trilobite Fossils in Shod Footprint of Human in `Trilobite Beds'—A Cambrian Formation—Antelope Springs, Utah," in Why Not Creation? (1970), p. 190.

As a result of finding the footprints, Meister became a Christian.

*Leland Davis, a consulting geologist, analyzed the strata the footprints had been found in—and found them to be "consisting almost entirely of Cambrian strata"! This is the oldest regular fossil-bearing strata on the planet!

You can find a complete description of the Antelope Springs footprint discoveries in the book, Why Not Creation? pp. 185-193.

Similar giant human footprints have been found in Arizona, near Mount Whitney, in California; near White Sands, New Mexico; and other places.

Visit: Freeper Tips and Helps for posting photos, links and other HTML goodies.
You can also bookmark the thread athttp://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/562247/posts

Please visit my Profile for a Christmas Greeting!


28 posted on 12/17/2001 7:26:22 PM PST by Texas Yellow Rose
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam
These are fascinating articles, and most interesting.

What has to be borne in mind is that the "people" of pre-history are not the same species as those making history here during the last 6,000 years, or so. No respectable anthropologist I am aware of asserts anymore that these older species are us. "Something" unique happened about 6K years ago, perhaps using the same basic bodies as before, but we clearly ain't the same as them.

29 posted on 12/17/2001 9:07:06 PM PST by LostTribe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: LostTribe
bump for further review.
30 posted on 12/17/2001 9:54:17 PM PST by d4now
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: LostTribe
If you believe that the Neanderthals were a seperate species than the humans alive today (which I don't), then the last Neanderthal lived about 28k years ago. This is the belief of most anthropologist/archaeologists in the world today. They believe that modern humans first appeared about 150k years ago. There have been periods in human history that different species co-existed but, it was a long time ago. A good book on this subject is Extinct Humans by Ian Tattersall, released a couple years ago.

The group that we call the American Indians today first appeared in North America about 6,000 years ago and are believed to have their origins in North China.

31 posted on 12/18/2001 3:11:57 AM PST by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Citizen Tom Paine
"I have always thought that the reason "old sites" were not found it the Northern Hemisphere was that no one looked."

This is exactly what happened at either the Meadowcroft or the Topper site (Can't remember which). The discoverer dug down to the Clovis level then stopped. Only after the discovery of the Monte Verde site did he decide (years later) to go back and dig deeper. Below the Clovis level, guess what, he found even earlier human artifacts.

32 posted on 12/18/2001 3:22:02 AM PST by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: blam
This article may have some fact, but that 200,000 years is really a stretch.
33 posted on 12/18/2001 3:43:50 AM PST by CWRWinger
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Comment #34 Removed by Moderator

To: blam
>Uncertainties always accompany various dating techniques...

Thanks for the heads up. It's always interesting when _really_ strange stuff gets good press.

However, I have very unorthodox views on pre-history... Specifically, I wonder about two things.

1) There is slim but accumulating evidence that universal "constants" are not constants at all. If constants are changing which affect radioactive decay, then many "accepted" chronologies will have to be re-evaluated.

2) On an even more extreme issue, I've always been intrigued by Genesis 10:25 -- "Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg, for in his days the earth was divided;" This is typically interpretted to refer to the incident at the Tower of Babal, when the people were dispersed, but later, in Genesis 10:32 we read -- "These were the families of the sons of Noah, according to their generations, in their nations; and from these the nations were divided on the earth after the flood." Here the text speaks of the nations being divided, not the earth. What if Scripture here is being accurate? What if the Tower of Babal story _actually_ recounts the breakup of the supercontient Pangaea taking place in historic/pre-historic times, rather than hundreds of millions years in the past?

I think it makes for a more entertaining view of the past to think that the "super continent" -- call it Pangaea, whatever -- existed into almost historic times. If this is so, then it explains how a _single_ flood could have inundated the "entire earth." Because if the continents were merged during prehistory, then a single catastrophe could have affected everyone.

There are other implications to Pangaea existing into pre-historic times, and they're all fun to speculate about.

Mark W.

35 posted on 12/18/2001 6:31:37 AM PST by MarkWar
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: blam
>This is the belief of most anthropologist/archaeologists in the world today.

I think you are behind the times on this one, blam. Go to any world-class conference on this subject and see most of the pioneering anthros distancing themselves from the old Darwinian theories and old texts and moving the dividing line up to ~10,000 years ago and closer. Some are still holding at the close of the last ice age, ~13,000 years at most.

36 posted on 12/18/2001 6:33:46 AM PST by LostTribe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

Comment #37 Removed by Moderator

To: wasfree
>finding ancient stone tools in the Americas is no problem. Merely the refuse and lost items of the decendants of survivors of the last try.

I can live with that, until something better comes along. Hardcore Darwinism and "evolution" exists only in the outdated notes of a few outdated professors. The old guard is trying hard to hide him in the closet and develop some distance from his theories. When the director of the British Museum announces that Darwinism is dead, you know it's history.

38 posted on 12/18/2001 6:40:27 AM PST by LostTribe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: RightWhale
Thanks. I figured k was 1000 but 'a' was unknown. Had I referenced my spanglish vocab I might have come up with año. Of course, little a shouldn't be confused with big A as in AU.

Merry Christmas!
39 posted on 12/18/2001 8:00:46 AM PST by Texas_Jarhead
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: wasfree
"What about that site in Russia that has tungsten and iridium coils that date to 100,000 years ago? "

That's been debunked. It was/is an early Soviet era dump site.

If you think about it long and hard the idea that we are not the first try at civilization explains a lot. I mean if there was a large meteor(comet) or a nuclear war, 99% of the survivors would be forced to live in basically stone age conditions. All it takes is one event and we have to start all over again. It should not be a big leap to conclude that has occured at least once. "

I do believe this. I'm a catastrophist. There's quite a bit of evidence for this view.

40 posted on 12/18/2001 8:14:07 AM PST by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: LostTribe
"I think you are behind the times on this one, blam. Go to any world-class conference on this subject and see most of the pioneering anthros distancing themselves from the old Darwinian theories and old texts and moving the dividing line up to ~10,000 years ago and closer."

For a new species of human? Point me in the direction of just one. You know me. Shoot, I'll check it out.

41 posted on 12/18/2001 8:18:17 AM PST by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: MarkWar
"I think it makes for a more entertaining view of the past to think that the "super continent" -- call it Pangaea, whatever -- existed into almost historic times. If this is so, then it explains how a _single_ flood could have inundated the "entire earth." Because if the continents were merged during prehistory, then a single catastrophe could have affected everyone."

That's way to big a leap for me. The geology of the earth does not support it. The continents continue to move today at about the same rate that your fingernails grow.

42 posted on 12/18/2001 8:23:12 AM PST by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: blam
Latest hominid theory would classify these tool makers as homo erectus. Since this creature wandered the planet for around a million years I've always wondered why scientists were so sure they couldn't get here.
43 posted on 12/18/2001 8:34:41 AM PST by Righty1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: blam
I do believe this. I'm a catastrophist

Better than a dogmatist.

44 posted on 12/18/2001 8:53:07 AM PST by RightWhale
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: blam
>You know me. Shoot, I'll check it out.

Of that I am positive.~ggg~ Am straying out of my field of interest with this one, but I'll see what I can come up with after the relatives leave...

45 posted on 12/18/2001 10:47:15 AM PST by LostTribe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: Rooper

 

TIME UPSIDE DOWN
Dr. Erich von Fange Ph.D.

Part 7


Footprints Tell Tales

Handprints and footprints have held a fascination since ancient times. Paintings and rock carvings of these representations are found in many parts of the world. On rare occasions footprints are found or uncovered in rock strata. For such prints to form in the first place, they must be rapidly covered or they will erode away from wind and water action. From time to time human prints have been reported in strange places. Understandably, paleontologists are not interested in considering the possibility of human prints in formations they believe to be older than the emergence of man.

One paleontologist warned his colleagues about the extraordinary forms that 'false' prints may take. He described a print found in Triassic rock. It appeared to be the fossilized leather sole of a shoe, about size 13, which showed a double line of sewed stitches, one line close to the outside edge and the other parallel at a distance of about a third of an inch. The edges of the sole were rounded off smoothly as if cut, and the right side of the heel seems to be more worn than the left (Victoria Institute , 1948, 80:21-22).

Another unusual find was reported in newspapers in 1968, but geologists had no comment about it. A sandal footprint of an adult and the footprints of a child were found embedded in strata right on top of trilobite fossils. This is a Cambrian deposit near Antelope Springs, Utah (See Table 1: Q). Photographs have been published of these finds, but more evaluation is needed.


This find must be classed as very inconclusive, tempting as it may appear (CRSQ, 1968, 5:3, p.97).
In the American Journal of Science a number of references to footprints in rock strata are discussed and reproduced, such as the following: Human impressions were reported in various locations in South America, but details are lacking...Human footprints in a limestone slab in a paved area between a house and garden in New Harmony, Indiana...A rock outcrop extending for three miles in front of St. Louis, Missouri, one to 200 feet wide, was observed during low water stages. The large number of human footprints there were noted already by early French explorers. The prints are in crinoidal limestone. The prints are described as of a man standing erect with toes spread apart. They appeared strikingly natural with every muscular impression, and the swell of heel and toes. The print described was about 10 1/2 inches long. The observer contrasted these prints with obviously carved footprints he had observed elsewhere...Other prints were reported in a quarry at Herculaneum, Missouri, and on rocks near Kingston, New York (CRSQ , 1970, 7:4, p.205).

Footprints up to twenty inches long were found in sandstone near Carson City, Nevada. Some of the larger prints are very clear and well-defined and were reproduced in the American Journal of Science . While some argue that the prints were of humans, they were later identified as the prints of the giant sloth (Fort, 1941, p.159; Wendt, 1956, p.519-520).

The State Geologist of Kentucky performed extensive tests on footprints found near Berea. The prints were discovered when the overburden from a sandstone formation was removed in logging operations about 1930. One series of prints found included some arranged in a normal walking stride. Microscopic studies showed that the grain counts were greater in the soles than in the adjacent sandstone, showing greater compression within the print areas.

Distinct left and right foot impressions were found, each with five toes and with a distinct arch. The prints could not have been carved since some of the tracks were still partly covered by higher sandstone strata. Other prints have been reported in nearby areas, but further information is lacking (CRSQ , 1970, 7:4, p.207).

A shoeprint was discovered in a coal seam in Fisher Canyon, Pershing County, Nevada. The imprint of the sole is so clear that traces of sewed thread are visible. The age of the coal is estimated to be more than 15,000,000 years (Thomas, 1971, p.24).

Close by a lake near Managua, Nicaragua are perhaps the most famous footprints in the Americas. They lie under eleven strata of solid rock from 16-24 feet under the surface. Heated debate about the age of the prints has gone on for almost a century. Initially they were dated about 200,000 years old, but since the feet were perfectly modern the age was reduced to older than 50,000 years. The only geologist to visit the scene at the initial discovery also found traces of domesticated dogs and horses with the prints - an impossible situation to resolve.

Polished stone artifacts and projectile points were also discovered. The prints are now dated at about 3000 B.C. on the basis of C14 tests, but this forces a considerable number of catastrophic events in a very short time period. Since various fossilized animal bones and mastodon remains have been found in strata above the human prints, the conclusion then is forced that the mastodon lived into very recent times. Near the city of San Raphael other human and animal tracks were found, including a sandal print which is now in the museum at Harvard (Victoria Institute , 1886, 22:148-152; Archaeology , 26 [April 1973], 146-147).

Near Glen Rose, Texas, the river bed of the Paluxy river is still revealing the astonishing sight of what apparently is human and dinosaur tracks together in stone. The rock formation is the Cretaceous. In 1970, James Ryals, who had been cutting out tracks and selling them since the 1930s, was interviewed. He reported the human tracks as mostly barefooted, but sometimes encased in some form of wrapping. The stride varied from two to seven feet. There are human tracks crossing dinosaur tracks, and dinosaur tracks which have blotted out human tracks in sequence.

Excavation of tracks show a compressed layer pattern underneath as one would expect if they are genuine. A scientist who did not examine the evidence ruled out the possibility that the tracks were human. A professor of medicine from the Unversity of Illinois examined the tracks and was convinced that they were genuine (CRSQ , 1970, 7:3, p.142; 1970, 7:4, p.246; Ryals, undated). Some years later at least some of the supposed human tracks were definitely shown to be dinosaur tracks. In the past 20 years many additional discoveries have been made to add to the controversy. Many books and articles treat these finds, both for and against their authenticity.

We must say that reports of footprints call for the utmost caution. Many people are imaginative creatures and with a little effort they can see almost anything patterned in worn rocks. Some rocks erode in a curious manner which could leave depressions much like footprints. No one questions the dinosaur footprints, however. The topic is too fascinating to pass by. Perhaps new finds will clarify the situation.

Visit: Freeper Tips and Helps for posting photos, links and other HTML goodies.
You can also bookmark the thread athttp://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/562247/posts

Please visit my Profile for a Christmas Greeting!


46 posted on 12/19/2001 2:37:44 AM PST by Texas Yellow Rose
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: blam;Gods, Graves, Glyphs;
More good stuff!

To find all articles tagged or indexed using 'Gods, Graves, Glyphs'

Click here: 'Gods, Graves, Glyphs'

47 posted on 01/07/2002 10:42:51 AM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Texas Yellow Rose
Simple explanation. The universe is largely unknown. Humans have the propensity to believe they are the end all-be all. Infallable, as it were. Give us a task and we can figure it out. Consider this: an unknown number of people disappear every year. So do uncounted numbers of socks from dryers. A person is walking down a road, for example. Suddenly....poof! Gone! Where to? Perhaps, through a rip in the "fabric" of the known universe? To where? 70 million years past? His/her prints are found along with dino tracks. Eventually, unable to return "home", time traveling Robinson Crusoe passes on. Where's the body? Simple. T Rex is a very hungry creature who can run fast and eats every scrap. Anomaly solved! Next?
48 posted on 01/08/2002 6:55:04 PM PST by Thumper1960
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: blam
I visted the Calico site several years ago. Easy to get to, it is interesting. Don't know if I believe the age or not.
49 posted on 01/10/2002 7:26:28 PM PST by DensaMensa
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: DensaMensa
If this is in the vicinity of the "Calico Ghost Town", I used to be acquainted with a lady that grew up there. Her mother was a cook for a bunch of miner's when she was 15, and that was during the time a dog was used to deliver mail to the miners in the hills.
50 posted on 01/10/2002 7:38:10 PM PST by stumpy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-134 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson