Posted on 12/24/2001 4:49:53 PM PST by dlt
It was 1 Jew. You are using plural. But facts don't matter to you. Merry Christmas.
It was my experience that people can legally worship as they choose in Israel. However, there is tremendous pressure not to discuss any other religious alternatives with people of the Jewish faith. Maybe the following article will shed some light on this for you:
Tuesday, March 31, 1998
No missionary activity in Holy Land
The Associated Press
Representatives of 50 Christian evangelical groups have agreed to make an unprecedented joint statement promising not to carry out missionary activity in Israel. As a result, MK Nissim Zvili (Labor) said yesterday he would drop his sponsorship of an anti-proselytizing bill that has drawn protests from Christians around the world.
"This is better than a law," Zvili told The Associated Press. "This is a very big accomplishment."
In the statement, the Christian groups say they "rejoice in the presence of the Jewish people in this country of their ancestors" and agree to avoid "activities which have as their intention to alienate them from their tradition and community."
Missionary activity touches a particularly raw nerve in the Jewish state, home to 300,000 Holocaust survivors.
Clarence Wagner, director of the evangelical foundation Bridges for Peace, said the statement was an important step toward understanding between Jews and Christians. But none of the groups were engaged in proselytizing anyway, adding: "We don't believe that we have been or are in any way a threat to the Jewish people. We are among the most vocal supporters of Israel worldwide."
Christian groups opposed the proposed bill as stifling their freedom of religious expression, Wagner said. The agreement, which is to be announced formally tomorrow, was reached through the mediation of Joseph Alpher, director of the American Jewish Committee's Israel office. The accord represented "a dynamic Christian commitment to the vitality of Israel and Judaism," he said.
Another sponsor of the anti-proselytizing bill, MK Moshe Gafni (United Torah Judaism) said yesterday that he rejected the agreement. "We have a long account with Christendom," Gafni said. "They tried to wipe out Judaism by force Ñ the pogroms, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the expulsion from Spain, and now they are pursuing us even into our own country."
But the decision by Zvili to drop his sponsorship will deprive the bill of broad-based support. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has also said he opposed the bill, which Alpher said he hoped would now "wither on the vine." As initially proposed, the bill would have banned possession of any written material that proselytizes, which some Christians feared could be used to ban possession of the New Testament.
(c) copyright 1998 Ha'aretz. All Rights Reserved
Note: I would often debate various religious topics with Israeli friends, just like politics or economical issues. It is not my nature to try to convert anyone. But the official Israeli position is that there should be no "preaching" to Jews. It is their country and I see no problem with it. I just get annoyed when we in the U.S. criticize countries other than Israel for the same behavior, yet ignore that Israel has the same policy in place.
No. The letter that you refuse to comment on, was comparing the usage of BC/AD to "smack in the face". Playing dumb, or being dumb? Who's forcing whom here?
Do you want me to comment on every Jew? Look at the history, and look at the people as a whole. For example. Jihad/Terrorism in Muslims world is not an isolated incident. This is.
There were Jewish terrorists too. And how about "Crazy" Irv? And ozzymandus here seems to have suggested that that incident wasn't single in the history. The most recent reported one, you can at least make that conlusion.
Good. We agree. Then why are we still on this?
Because I stated that it's the sentiment that is revealed.
I wasn't aware that there was a movement amongst Jews to take out symbols out of this "historically Christian...".
It's an attitude (confirmed by your scepticism about "historically Christian"), that is manifested in attempts to further secularize this country. You'll be very suprise to learn that many activists have Jewish names.
By the way, while most of the first americans were Christians, if I recall correctly, freedom of speech and religion were the first values as well. As for Judaism, nothing is offensive to our religion, other then others not letting us practice is.
Even with your narrow definition of "what's offensive", bibles and using references to Christ can be intepreted as attempts to convert, and therefore, not letting you practice your religion.
I suspect that by this you mean that there were Jews amongst Bolsheviks? Sure, I don't deny it. Do you deny the russian involvement in the Bolshevik revolution?? Do you deny the Jewish involvement in the shaping of the capitalism system?
By that I suggest that the overwhelming majority of top Bolsheviks were Jewish, and that they were driven by hatred to Czarist Russia with what they perceived was unfair treatment of Russian Jews. They weren't religious, just like most Jewish activists in the US are, who are, just like the Bolsheviks before them, are working on dismanling traditions of this country.
Yes. You have been trying for a while now, yet I don't see any other examples other then isolated incident that you brought about here.
I offered you two instances on this thread. I am sure there is much more evidence available, and if you want I will be flagging you on relevant threads.
Now, you are the one acting like you are at a middle eastern bazaar. Internationalists? In theory? maybe. In practice? It said "Jew" in Jews' soviet passports. What's more, my father had to divorce my mom for 1 day, so they can remarry under her name so he could actually get into college (the dean told him flat out, that they are accepting any more of "his kind" that year).
Stalin purged the "Old Guard" Bolsheviks, who were overwhelmingly Jewish, and the Communism started to gradually turn into nationalism, which culminated in its demise.
Remembering Ukraine's Unknown Holocaust
Walter Duranty, the New York Time's man in Moscow knew of the slaughter and refused to report it. The Germans were of it however and used what Kaganovitch and others did in the Ukraine to execute their own program of genocide.
I don't know how the fact that you accept it is relevant here, apart from not being very suprising in light of what I was saying.
Right. There were no functioning temples in Odessa (but plenty of churches. My mother walked me into one when I was about 7 to show me how people worship and how beautiful the art is).
The Bolsheviks destroyed almost all the churches in Russia. The grunt of oppression was on the church, after the Bolshevik revolution.
If it didn't, you wouldn't have brought it up. But you did.
I asked to confirm my guess about you.
Interesting. So Jews are just hateful of Christians because of their genes?
No, Jews would rather live in a secularized country, if it's not Jewish. Only when it comes to their religion, they would like to live in a virtual theocracy.
Very interesting. Weren't you the one arguing that a Jew is a religion, not an ethnicity?
I don't remember participating in that discussion, because the quesion is a weasely one, used to disown "atheistic" Jews.
You people spin this so much, you get caught up in your own contradictions.
LOL! You have caught your own tail, so far, and keep chasing it.
Anyone doubts that a teacher in a Christian school wouldn't throw Jewish/Muslim or any other missionary material into the garbage?
This wasn't just "missionary material" but the New Testament of the Bible. If a Christian school threw a Torah or Koran into the garbage it would be (rightly) seen as an act of intolerance or hate, and an encouragement toward ignorance.
This attitude is more reminicent of Nazis than persons in a free democracy. It's too bad the Jews are so threatened by an established book.
So? For him its a smack in the face to use the name of a false prophet in the whatever Jewish text he was writing about? You yourself are acting like he smacked you in the face by not acceptiong your savior. The parallel is rather clear. You two can relate quite well.
Because I stated that it's the sentiment that is revealed.
Isolated case. Puuuhlease... someone on FR "suggested" something.. So? look at the history. If you want to talk about sentiments, I think I can find more on sentiments of people against Jews, then the other way around. Russia for example is historically anti-semetic. But I am not bringing it up till now, as to not to imply that I have pre judged you and that your sentiments were revealed to me because you are russian.
It's an attitude (confirmed by your scepticism about "historically Christian"), that is manifested in attempts to further secularize this country.
Scepticism? Where's my scepticism. I'll repeat for you again, because you appear to be slow. Most of the first americans were Christian. Yet, freedom of speech AND freedom of religion were the first american values. Going by your logic, this country is historically WASP, and you being Russian Orthodox... well, you get the drift.
You'll be very suprise to learn that many activists have Jewish names.
There are always many Jewish names on either side. Which allows people like you spin any issue in every each way. My grandmother's grandfather was killed by Petlurovzi. Some family on my father's side owned a factory prior to revolution and had to run to South America when communists took over. My mother's grandfather was a communist (with Kotovsky), he was killed by Stalin in 1939. A lot of my family was killed by the nazi's in WW2, etc. As you see, you can spin my family any way you like. Some ran from the communists, some ran with the communists, etc,etc,etc. Most families in russia, Jewish or not, had a communist in the family. In fact, if you listen to communists in Russia today, they will blame Jews for their failure... STILL TO THIS DAY.
By that I suggest that the overwhelming majority of top Bolsheviks were Jewish, and that they were driven by hatred to Czarist Russia with what they perceived was unfair treatment of Russian Jews.
Tops capitalists were and are Jewish as well. What's your point?
I offered you two instances on this thread. I am sure there is much more evidence available, and if you want I will be flagging you on relevant threads.
This is a very intersting thread. A lone teacher burns new testament because someone tried to preach Christianity to his student. And rightly you are outraged because no one should be burning a holy book. You are not however outraged that someone is trying to convert Jews in a historically Jewish state of Israel. Yet, some Jew in USA doesnt' want to use a Christian date, and you are outraged, that he is living in a (according to you) historically Christian country and etc.. You see the parallel?
Yes. Let the ideas speak for themselves. If you believe in the first amendment, the truth will win out in the end. In the case of this poor school, their final decision is to "trash" any further New Testaments that they receive, so no student will have the opportunity to judge for themselves whether the Jesus of the New Testament is the Messiah prophesied in the Old. Likewise, with the Communist Manifesto, better to read it young and debate and discard its' tenets as false than to encounter it later in a less discerning environment.
Well. You asked me. I told you. If now you don't find your own question to be relevant, then you have in fact caught your own tail :)
The Bolsheviks destroyed almost all the churches in Russia. The grunt of oppression was on the church, after the Bolshevik revolution.
Oh? There were quite a few churches in Odessa, but not a single temple (keep in mind, that odessa was 30-40% Jewish at one point)
I asked to confirm my guess about you.
That's a very good guess. Shows that you know that there were no temples and no Jewish schools in USSR, yet you still attempt to show that Bolsheviks were anti Christian, where in reality they were more anti religion (any religion). My grandmother's grandfather was a Rebbe. Not a Rabbi - a Rebbe (for those who don't know, in Hasidic branch of Judasm, rabbi is more like a priest - someone who does service in the synagogue, where Rebbe is more like a Bishop - a regional authority figure on religious issues). My grandmother went to a Jewish school in Ukraine before the revolution, and her whole family was quite religious. The only reason that I am not is... surprise, the revolution. You can rest assured that my kids will be much more religous that I am. So, kopchenaya kolbasa and etc, is quite temporary, even those who shop on brighton manage to give their kids opportunities to become more Jewish (so to speak) then they had..
I don't remember participating in that discussion, because the quesion is a weasely one, used to disown "atheistic" Jews.
Not at all. Being Jewish is an ethnicity as well as a religion.. You are even trying to prove it by saying that Jews that are not religious have something else in common?
LOL! You have caught your own tail, so far, and keep chasing it.
Guy, you need to chill out with a nice cold bottle of Baltika
Neither the BCE/CE system or the BC/AD system have now or ever had a year 0. There is only 1 BC or 1 AD--its the same system thought up by a Christian monk (very likely wrong, as you state) in the 5th Century--however both are based on the "traditional" (and incorrect) estimation of the same date--namely Jesus birth. The reason it is the "Common Era" is due to the influence world wide of Christian culture...
To me it seems pretty disingenuous for academia for whatever reason to try to sanitize BC/AD since it really is the same Christian based and invented calender after all...
That's a seperate issue. Some on this threat are claiming it to be a Jewish plot to minimize Christianity or what not.
And some idiots want to blame Jewish people for everything... As a Christ-follower, all I know is that everyone needs a Savior!
Are we receiving $3 billion a year in military and foreign aid from a Communist country? Then I suppose we could burn the Communist Manifesto and not worry about offending anyone we depend on for our very national survival.
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