Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Addicted to the Drug War
Ludwig von Mises Institute ^ | December 28, 2001 | Ilana Mercer

Posted on 12/30/2001 1:25:13 AM PST by NoCurrentFreeperByThatName

Now that it is being rededicated as part of the war on terrorism, the hapless war on drugs will claim even more liberties and lives than it already has. While omnibus antiterrorism bills were being rammed past pliant populations in the U.S., Canada, and Britain, Tony Blair got on the drug tack by ominously pointing out that the avails from drugs finance roughly 25 percent of the world's terrorist activity.

Blair, whose New Labor is committed to a "curious blend of moralism and utilitarianism" (TLS, September 14), one that has enshrined in law coercive drug testing and compulsory treatment protocols, proclaimed that fighting terrorism must extend to the war on drugs. This implies that the war effort will entail a renewed assault on individuals for their consumption choices.

Last year alone, roughly 1.5 million Americans were arrested on drug charges, most of them for marijuana possession. Sure enough, since September 11, DEA agents have stepped up the savage crackdowns on infirm medical-marijuana users.

There is no denying that the drug trade is a source of revenue for al-Qaida and for armed insurrections the world over. However, had governments not outlawed these substances, profits would not be excessive, and criminals would be looking elsewhere for a quick fix. Had the trade not been outlawed, the $400 billion worth of illegal trade per annum would not be in the hands of a criminal class whose market share is captured with guns.

The avails from drugs, moreover, would be much less likely to be funneled to unsavory causes if the trade were in the hands of legitimate law-abiding business. It is ironic that terrorists owe a debt of gratitude to governments for the solid financial base they enjoy.

Besides indirectly sponsoring terrorism, governments terrorize their citizens in more direct ways. While gangsters fight turf wars with other gangsters in order to maintain their upper hand in the lucrative market of illegal drugs, they don't go out of their way to assault their bread and butter, their drug-consuming clients. Drug dealers are not responsible for the incarceration on any given day of some 500,000 adults--100,000 of whom are nonviolent--in U.S. jails for drug taking. It is not drug lords that carry out unconstitutional assaults on adults because they happen to choose to consume marijuana, heroin, or cocaine, instead of alcohol, nicotine, or prescription drugs. Governments do.

The brutal punishing of adults for the substances they ought to be able to ingest, inhale, or inject at their own peril is based on a parochial and moribund prior restraint argument. Policy wonks have arbitrarily decided that heroin consumption is potentially worse for individual and society than compulsive eating, bunjie jumping, gambling, alcohol consumption, fatty foods, or tobacco. This serves as a justification to trample the constitutional rights of people before the foreseeable harm comes to pass. Considering the extent and severity of its assault on otherwise peaceable people, the state's conduct in the war on drugs befits the conduct of a criminal class, albeit a criminal class that enjoys the protection of the law.

If we accept prior restraint arguments, then apply them we must ad absurdum. We would have to stop all teenagers from driving, all people from eating Twinkies, or all socialist parents from procreating, lest they too sire proponents of state theft. "As soon as we surrender the principle that the state should not interfere in any questions touching on the individual’s mode of life," wrote Ludwig von Mises in 1927, "we end by regulating and restricting the latter down to the smallest details."

SUPPLY AND DEMAND

Despite the libertarian gush over the Hollywood motion picture Traffic, it was simply reiterating what seems obvious to almost all, except to President Bush's new drug czar, John Walters: The war on drugs is a dismal failure. Walters, who backs tough penalties for drug users and opposes the use of marijuana for medical purposes, intends to reinvigorate the flailing war. To make the thing hale and hearty again, the new chief of the U.S. antinarcotics operation has promised to shift the focus of his $20 billion-a-year office to "the demand side of this problem."

The attempts to reduce demand can be traced as far back as the 1917 Harrison Act that outlawed cocaine and other illicit drugs. While the criminal penalties over the decades have become harsher and harsher, demand has actually grown apace. The government spends billions attempting to brainwash children into "Just Saying No" to drugs. In the process it has managed to create not much more than an ever looming forbidden fruit syndrome.

The urge to experiment with psychoactive drugs is seemingly as strong now as when, in "On Liberty," John Stuart Mill argued that the freedom to consume alcohol and opium is one of the most basic civil rights. It is unlikely to cease any time soon. Most moderate users, however, do not become addicts. This is the secret that is concealed by the addiction industry’s hysterical chemical McCarthyism.

The irony becomes even greater when law enforcement turns its attentions to the supply side of the problem. In British Columbia, the media commend the Vancouver police force whenever it performs one of its sting operations. But what happens when supply is reduced? Why, prices shoot up. And what happens when prices go up? The potential profit causes a renewed influx of dealers into the trade, resulting in more crime. In the war on drugs, success is failure. A free market in drugs, however, will bring prices down drastically, inclining fewer pushers to enter the trade.

THE COSTS OF ILLEGAL MARKETS

Prohibition--not drug use--is responsible for the current crime and chaos. Prohibition makes the price of drugs far in excess of their cost of production. The production costs of common drugs are low. These chemicals are derived from hardy plants. A poppy is not an orchid. Neither is cannabis a particularly fragile plant. As with other illegal commodities, the price is pushed up by the high costs of circumventing the law as well as by the reduced supply brought on by prohibition. The price of pure heroin for medicinal purposes is a fraction of its street price. The difference amounts to a state subsidy for organized crime.

Again, in British Columbia, policy pundits are perennially alarmed at the flood of extra-potent drugs into Vancouver's East Side area, where drug use is endemic. Last year there were over 200 overdoses. Why the surprise? Prohibition is directly related to the potency of drugs. Given the risks involved in circumventing the law, dealers would rather transport the more potent and lucrative drugs. Reduced to criminals by law and held to ransom by mercenary suppliers, consumers have no recourse to the courts when they are sold adulterated or poisoned substances.

To "deal with supply," it is now the habit of the U.S. to invade foreign countries, to seize property on finding miniscule amounts of dope, to search people willy-nilly, to break into their homes and threaten their safety, even kill them. While the motion picture Traffic did not warrant the gushing praise it got from libertarians, it did provide some sober lines. As the protagonist decreed, "[T]here is no sacred protection of property rights in our country. You grow marijuana on your farm, be it an ounce or an acre of plant, that farm can be seized, that farm can be sold." And you can be killed. . .

The U.S. has been able to make prohibition piety an integral part of its foreign policy. It's quite clear that President Bush’s new warlord and his retinue will preserve the uniquely made-in-America flavor of the war. One of the ploys favored by Walters is the issuance of report cards, certifying or decertifying a nation in accordance with how its drug warriors perform. The U.S.’s drug strategy is predicated on ensuring prohibition is written into every international treaty and properly used as leverage in foreign agreements. Sweeping antiterrorism measures will further bolster these powers.

VOLUNTARY TRANSACTIONS

One question ought to loom large: When a drug purchaser and a drug seller make an exchange, is it voluntary? If it is voluntary, then both parties expect to benefit ex ante. A voluntary exchange is, by definition, always mutually beneficial inasmuch as, at the time of the exchange, the buyer valued the purchase more than the money he paid for it, and the seller valued the money more than the goods he sold.

Writing in the Journal of Business Ethics (1993), economist Walter Block points out that there will always be meddling third parties seeking to circumscribe and circumvent a voluntary activity not to their liking. Some feminists want to stop lovers of pornography from making or consuming it. Other busybodies would like to stop adults from gambling. These third parties have no place in a transaction between consenting adults, unless these transactions infringe directly--not foreseeably--on their property or person.

Any transaction that was at the time of occurrence voluntary, and hence beneficial to the participants, can, retrospectively, be denounced as harmful and regrettable. A litigious culture that shuns personal responsibility facilitates this. Consider the Sicamous, British Columbia, man who bought cocaine from the same dealer for ten years running. The drug consumer is now suing the dealer, alleging dealers "owe a duty of care to their customers." Is this the same kind of care the baker owes the obese buyer, or the local pub owner owes the alcoholic?

If the legislator has no place in a voluntary exchange between adults, what role can the state properly arrogate to itself?

THE ROLE OF THE STATE

The safest--to say nothing of most just--society is one that demands accountability from people, and treats them--so long as they are compos mentis--as if they have "initiative" and free will, for they do. Policymakers, however, don’t get votes for fostering reliance; on the contrary, they get lifelong co-dependence from their voters for getting them off the hook.

Currently, instead of being punished and shamed, the therapeutic state exculpates, treats, and often rewards addicts who commit crimes. Crimes perpetrated under the influence are cast as a disease for which a lesser sentence is meted. Often, criminals like this even go on to become advocates, mainstream role models, and preachers of the gospel of abstinence. It gets worse: state subsidized treatment has the victim, the taxpayer, pay for the ostensible restitution of the criminal. This kind of inversion of the moral order shields the perpetrator from the consequences of his actions and guarantees recidivism.

Drug use is a choice and a private one. If people should be arrested, it is only for crimes they perpetrate against another’s person and property. The correct solution is to visit the full force of the law on anyone who commits a crime against another's person or property. If an addict tosses a used needle in a public park, and a toddler steps on it, the addict must be made accountable for reckless endangerment. If the victim gets Hepatitis B or HIV--both diseases that can kill--the addict is complicit in attempted murder.

Incidentally, many libertarians have no difficulty stating that parks ought to be privatized in order to avoid the eventuality I describe. But they refuse to concede that, since the existence of public property is a reality, it is incumbent on government to manage this property as if it were private. These libertarians err on the side of libertinism by supporting the right of a bum to intimidate library-going children, or the right of the user to dispose publicly of his intravenous weapons.

When an employer is free to exercise property rights, he can implement a policy of compulsory testing as a prerequisite for employment. Should he refuse employment to a user, the user is free to either look elsewhere or quit the habit. In contrast to the state, members of the community cannot, unless they violate the law, take away a person’s liberty or interfere with the integrity of his person or property. With its protected species and anti-discrimination regulation, the state disrupts the market’s self-correcting mechanism.

The State must then exert its only mandate, and that is to protect people and their property from incurring unprovoked harm. Acting for the state, the criminal justice system must stop ameliorating punishment with a disease label or treatment protocol. Once the secular liberal state retreats from managing what people ingest, inhale, or inject, it will fall, once again, to custom and religion to reinvigorate those informal checks on behavior the therapeutic state has undermined. Shame, loss of face, being denied membership, excommunication, counseling, and support are some of the ways moral communities have, in previous eras, kept their members in check.

ADDICTION: VICE OR DISEASE?

The film Traffic grows heavy with portent when the protagonist takes a few drinks before dinner. In an attempt at some foolish equivalencies, or slippery-slope error, it's implied that the hard-working--if vocationally misguided--father's predinner drinks are on a par with the addiction of his slack-jawed teen. "We are all out of control" is the hysterical message. Neither is it without significance that Traffic ends with the twelve-step session. Had Oprah Winfrey made a grand entrée, the scene could not have been more endorsing of the disease model of addiction. Lost in the hysteria is that most people, even when they help themselves regularly to a joint or indulge in a few drinks, choose not to descend into the addiction abyss or turn their backs on life's responsibilities.

On the issue of drugs, adherents of the left and right appear incapable of coming down from a shared high. Prohibitionists unanimously support outlawry, coerced treatment protocols (incidentally, the success the proponents of this treatment claim for it is no argument in its favor), and deny that people are capable of making conscious choices. Both hawk and harm-reductionist dove believe addiction is not a problem of behavior, but a disease as organic as cancer or diabetes.

There are, however, no genetic markers that distinguish the addict from the moderate user or the nonuser. There is no inherited mechanism that leads a person to be unable to control his substance use, to go on tremendous binges, or to leave off his connection to people and environments in order to consume a substance. The scientific evidence for brain-based addiction theories is shabby.

When people take drugs, their brain functioning changes. When they have sex, cuddle their toddler, or eat chocolate, similar changes occur in the same brain centers. Do changes in the brain tell us anything about the person’s behavior or its motivation? Hardly. Can we draw conclusions about whether the connubially preoccupied is addicted to sex from the fact that certain centers in the brain--the very same centers that react when drugs are taken--perk up when said individual has sex? Of course not. When people recover from addiction--by any means at all--their brain functioning changes once again. This does not amount to saying that addiction is organic or biological in the sense that appendicitis or diabetes is.

Everything we do involves our brains, and brains alter their physical structure and functioning in response to the environment. We could just as well say that learning French is a biological accomplishment, though most of us would rather call it an intellectual achievement (John Winston Bush, Ph.D., unpublished Letter-to-an-Editor, SSCP Listserve).

Identifying activities as stimulating the cerebral pleasure centers fails to explain why people find different things pleasurable and why different people react in destructive, addictive ways to some of these things, while others incorporate them into a balanced overall lifestyle ("Medical Mumbo Jumbo Does not Explain Addiction," Ilana Mercer, The Calgary Herald, 2000).

REDUCING DRUG ADDICTION

Reducing addiction lies in withdrawing the perverse incentives that reinforce the maladaptive behavior. To use twelve-step locution, free treatment programs are "enablers." The dismal failure of state programs launched by the addiction industry and the high rates of recidivism alert us again and again to the fact that addicts quit when they decide to. And they are more likely to be nudged in that direction when made to shoulder the consequences of their lifestyle.

Currently, we don't have free-market insurance. It is legally impermissible to exclude or refuse to insure certain risky populations. Some self-destructive behavior has acquired disability status and hence is legally protected. If insurers cannot transfer to the addict the full costs of the risk he poses, they must make those of us who choose to watch our diets, exercise, and refrain from smoking or drug taking the repository for these costs. Legislative interference ensures we subsidize the lifestyle of the smoker, compulsive eater, drinker, and addict.

Over and above the immorality of forceful wealth distribution, socialized schemes (like the Canadian healthcare system) distribute wealth from the risk averse to the reckless, stealing from responsible adults, and rewarding the rash and imprudent.

Insurance on the free market would restore the right to discriminate between risk groups. With such discrimination comes the incentive on the part of the insured to avoid lifestyles or behaviors that incur costs.

If a society wishes to persist in pursuing a worldview where misdeeds are parlayed as diseases--where the thief is considered a kleptomaniac, the arsonist a pyromaniac, and the promiscuous a sex addict--it must at the very least stop forcing the majority of people to sponsor this deviance. In the absence of distribution schemes, these behaviors will become less prevalent.

CONCLUSION

A free market in drugs, aver the determinists, will bring prices down drastically and send demand rocketing, causing rampant addiction. These conclusions are based on assumptions not in evidence: There is no indication that, prior to prohibition, people flocked to the opium dens in proportionally greater numbers than contemporary addicts flock to the crack houses. In the same vein that biological hardwiring fails to explain this vice, addiction cannot be understood as a mere byproduct of environmental exigencies.

Try as the egalitarians do to whittle down the differences between people to simple schedules of reinforcement, they invariably fail. Not being laboratory rats, human behavior is mediated by--and cannot be explained without reference to--values, conscious choices, and probity of character or lack thereof.

Conversely, because drug taking--like most things--involves elements of choice, it would be inaccurate to blame the dire situation of addicts entirely on the absence of a competitive market. The impeded accessibility of drugs is not insignificant in the plight of the user. But, absent drugs, a person with such proclivities may well branch into other antisocial behavior.

It is not unreasonable to postulate, however, that, were addicts able to purchase drugs at market prices, and were they not forced to structure their lives around obtaining a fix, criminal conduct among users would be considerably reduced. These pragmatic predictions aside, prohibition is unconscionable and should no longer be finessed.


TOPICS: Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: wodlist
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-50 ... 1,101-1,1501,151-1,2001,201-1,250 ... 2,101-2,137 next last
To: Roscoe
Hey, YOU'RE the self-proclaimed constitutional expert and YOU're the one who can't get any parts of it RIGHT, so I figure maybe if you really study it you could at least have an outline of an idea. You do seem to have a fundamental difficulty in reading comprehension and all, as witnessed by your posts. But you'd just as soon kick down doors and kill innocent people and keep wiping your a$$ with the basic law of the land. Is that about it?
1,151 posted on 01/01/2002 7:15:53 PM PST by dcwusmc
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1141 | View Replies]

To: dcwusmc
Can YOU devise a war on drugs that is NOT repugnant to the Constitution and Bill of Rights? Yes or no? If yes,

Base the drug war on the 21st amendment. That places the question under the auspices of the 10th amendment wile giving the Fed a role in interstate and international trafficking.

1,152 posted on 01/01/2002 7:16:56 PM PST by Texasforever
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1124 | View Replies]

To: donh
They smashed stills and confiscated and destroyed contraband whiskey, historical revisionism notwithstanding.
1,153 posted on 01/01/2002 7:18:02 PM PST by Roscoe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1149 | View Replies]

To: Roscoe; donh
See, someone else is on to ya, Roscoe. Way to win arguments, huh?
1,154 posted on 01/01/2002 7:18:42 PM PST by AKbear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1149 | View Replies]

To: dcwusmc
...kick down doors and kill innocent people and keep wiping your a$$ with the basic law of the land...

Rant, ahoy!

1,155 posted on 01/01/2002 7:20:35 PM PST by Roscoe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1151 | View Replies]

To: Roscoe

And, will some consistant Libertarian tell me what's wrong with this?

(hint.. property right's..)

1,156 posted on 01/01/2002 7:21:01 PM PST by Jhoffa_
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1153 | View Replies]

To: OWK
[Our Constitution will do just fine.]

What the hell do you need it for?

As a barrier to anarchists.

1,157 posted on 01/01/2002 7:22:06 PM PST by Roscoe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1147 | View Replies]

To: Jhoffa_
Good luck. They've been avoiding it all day.
1,158 posted on 01/01/2002 7:23:20 PM PST by Roscoe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1156 | View Replies]

To: Texasforever
Huh? The 21st amendment repealed the 18th amendment. It gave no powers to anyone, in fact, it took away powers from congress.

Unless you are talking about the 2nd clause. Then you still have to take into consideration the 4th, 5th, and 9th amendment.

1,159 posted on 01/01/2002 7:23:53 PM PST by AKbear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1152 | View Replies]

To: Texasforever
How about answering the REST of it?

You come up with a way to run your WOsD that fits the COnstitution and Bill of Rights, that is NOT repugnant to the 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th and 10th amendments and I will support you 1000%. Can you do it? It must also fit within the ENUMERATED powers of the Federal Government if you mean to run it from there. In other words, for FedGov to do it, you better get an amendment. To recap, your Constitutional drug war must NOT:
1. Allow ninja-clad thugs to break down doors in the middle of the night;
2. Allow ninja-clad thugs to use blank, fake or NO warrants in the course of their "work";
3. Allow ninja-clad thugs to seize property without a warrant or a trial or even filing charges.

Can the STATES run a drug war this way? I'd say they couldn't, personally, but it would at least get the Feds out of it. And at least you answered, thanks

1,160 posted on 01/01/2002 7:24:20 PM PST by dcwusmc
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1152 | View Replies]

To: Jhoffa_
Hey, maybe I was wrong..

I kinda feel good about a Bass Boat Navy..

Yeah, sunset missles are no problem for a target smaller than a go-kart..

Maybe the Libertarians are right after all.

1,161 posted on 01/01/2002 7:24:53 PM PST by Jhoffa_
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1156 | View Replies]

To: Roscoe
Still ducking the question??????
1,162 posted on 01/01/2002 7:25:31 PM PST by dcwusmc
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1155 | View Replies]

To: Jhoffa_
I went back and read your exchanges with donh, and it seems that you are incorrect in your understanding of the fundamentals of libertarian philosophy.

Libertarian philosophy does not prohibit force or fraud.

It prohibits the initiation of force, or fraud.

Hence if an individual acts to initiate force against another, he morally empowers the use of restraining (defensive) force under libertarian philosophy. And the same libertarian philosophy suggests that men may act in concert (i.e. form a government) in the defense of rights.

So if (as in your example) you tried to force your neighbor's wife into prostitution, or caused harm to your neighbor's property, or tried to engage his children (who are too young to understand the concept of consent) in sexuality, he would be morally entitled to either [a: restrain you himself, or b:act in coordinated effort with his neighbors (i.e. government) to restrain you, with force if necessary[

Libertarian philosophy does not prohibit force.

It prohibits the INITIATION of force.

Please make a note of it.

1,163 posted on 01/01/2002 7:25:49 PM PST by OWK
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1148 | View Replies]

To: AKbear
I have been truly amazed with the twists of logic Roscoe has used in this thread.

You'll have better luck getting the north poles of two magnets to stick together than you will discussing things logically with Roscoe.

1,164 posted on 01/01/2002 7:26:01 PM PST by Alan Chapman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1125 | View Replies]

To: Roscoe

Yeah, it's because they can't answer.. and their ideology works on paper, but (ironically) could only be put into practical application in a world of Kevin's and CJ's.. (Whom they personally despise.. )

They are a joke.. a very few people who make an incredible ammount of noise..

1,165 posted on 01/01/2002 7:27:26 PM PST by Jhoffa_
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1158 | View Replies]

To: AKbear
Agreed, but at least Tex answered and quite reasonably by comparison to some past replies and certainly as compared to others posting on this very thread!
1,166 posted on 01/01/2002 7:27:44 PM PST by dcwusmc
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1159 | View Replies]

To: Jhoffa_
Yep, they violated property rights. The so called Whiskey Rebellion is kind of like the first Waco. They destroyed property and killed people because they didn't pay their taxes.

Now, I have seen you mention the "no force, no fraud" thing over and over and some of your statements regarding the same.

You first must understand a principle before you can use it in a debate, and from your use of it to derive "rights" shows you have no understanding of it at all.

It's not "no force, no fraud," it's, "No one may initiate force or fraud,"

Just thought I would clear that up for you.

1,167 posted on 01/01/2002 7:28:19 PM PST by AKbear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1156 | View Replies]

To: Roscoe
As a barrier to anarchists.

OK... I'm with you on that score.

I approve of the notion of state.

Where I differ with you, is in defining the responsibility of state.

I say the state's only morally legitimate responsibility, is the defense of rights, so that we are free to pursue or own improvement and industry.

You say, the state should exist to dictate our actions, so as to make us better people.

1,168 posted on 01/01/2002 7:29:15 PM PST by OWK
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1157 | View Replies]

To: OWK

I will Mr. OWK.

And, in the mean time please take a minute to explain the concept of Property Right's and such to Mister Donh as they would exist under a "pure" Libertarian Government..

He seems to be getting a little confused.

1,169 posted on 01/01/2002 7:30:05 PM PST by Jhoffa_
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1163 | View Replies]

To: AKbear
Unless you are talking about the 2nd clause. Then you still have to take into consideration the 4th, 5th, and 9th amendment.

So in your mind both the 10th amendment and the 21st amendment are constitutionally suspect?

1,170 posted on 01/01/2002 7:30:47 PM PST by Texasforever
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1159 | View Replies]

To: Roscoe
Under Libertarianism, criminals would break down doors with impunity. Who would stop them?

Ummm... Homeowners?

1,171 posted on 01/01/2002 7:31:00 PM PST by southern rock
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1024 | View Replies]

To: Jhoffa_
You are a liar Don.. You are making things up as you go along.. Even the most staunch defender of the Libertarian ideology would agree.

Staunch defenders are not the same thing as contributing philosophical theorists. Most political animals couldn't reason their way out of a paper bag, including, sadly, most libertarian political activists.

When you can point me to a well-known libertarian political philosopher who disagrees with me, I will feel moved to respond. You have still not responded to the substance of my argument, which makes it perfectly clear why "force and fraud" is not in essential conflict with any sensible understanding of property rights, with regard to your cow-poking-beside-the-schoolyard example.

Property rights, are important, sure, but they not absolute trumps in any libertarian theory of which I am aware. Continuing to insist that they are, without providing me with an example from a well-known libertarian philosopher, after I've given you a perfectly obvious example otherwise, vis. a vis. manslaughter, is just silly.

1,172 posted on 01/01/2002 7:31:09 PM PST by donh
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1148 | View Replies]

To: Jhoffa_; strela
What does being a fink have to do with 'padding egos'?

-- You & strela are beyond bizarro.

1,173 posted on 01/01/2002 7:31:21 PM PST by tpaine
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1150 | View Replies]

To: Jhoffa_
Yeah, it's because they can't answer..

Already answered.

There was nothing even remotely difficult about your question.

Your position was based on a fundamental mistake on your part.

1,174 posted on 01/01/2002 7:31:30 PM PST by OWK
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1165 | View Replies]

To: Alan Chapman
I know. However, as I mentioned in a post somewhere up in all this, I do it for the lurkers more than trying to change Roscoe's mind. Some days I have the patience for it, but most days I don't even try.
1,175 posted on 01/01/2002 7:31:44 PM PST by AKbear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1164 | View Replies]

To: AKbear

I am well aware of that..

So, my "bossie" example stands.. Eh?

1,176 posted on 01/01/2002 7:31:54 PM PST by Jhoffa_
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1167 | View Replies]

To: tpaine; strela

We finally made it baby..

See, I told you all the effort would pay off in the long run..

1,177 posted on 01/01/2002 7:33:20 PM PST by Jhoffa_
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1173 | View Replies]

To: dcwusmc
Agreed, but any government program, federal, state, county, or local, must take into consideration the whole constitution including the entire Bill of Rights. Most especially the Bill of Rights.
1,178 posted on 01/01/2002 7:33:45 PM PST by AKbear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1166 | View Replies]

To: tpaine
PS: I don't know who posted #1070, but I didn't "get" it pulled..

So put down the tinfoil.

1,179 posted on 01/01/2002 7:34:19 PM PST by Jhoffa_
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1173 | View Replies]

To: Jhoffa_
So, my "bossie" example stands.. Eh?

If you'd be willing to repeat your example, I'd be willing to answer it to the best of my ability.

1,180 posted on 01/01/2002 7:34:47 PM PST by OWK
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1176 | View Replies]

To: AKbear, Jhoffa_
The so called Whiskey Rebellion is kind of like the first Waco.

Congratulations, Jhoffa_! You've exposed the fact that they hate our Constitution and American system of government from its very beginnings.

1,181 posted on 01/01/2002 7:34:57 PM PST by Roscoe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1167 | View Replies]

To: Jhoffa_
The reason some folks "despise" (your term) the likes of KC, CJ, Roscoe, et al, is simply because not a one of them will renounce the INITIATION of force against someone because the other person MIGHT be doing something in private that THEY don't like. And they do not hesitate to violate, or have others violate on their behalf, the Constitution and Bill of Rights. I could only imagine in my worst nightmare what a country composed of their ilk would be like. At that point, there'd be no Constitution left. And yet they (and you) bitch about what Billy Jeff did to the country.
1,182 posted on 01/01/2002 7:35:22 PM PST by dcwusmc
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1165 | View Replies]

To: Roscoe

They smashed stills and confiscated and destroyed contraband whiskey, historical revisionism notwithstanding

Same sort of the the IRS does with income tax evaders. Does that mean the IRS can regulate if or where you can work?

1,183 posted on 01/01/2002 7:35:57 PM PST by donh
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1153 | View Replies]

To: OWK

Hardly..

Tell me why it's wrong for the government to break up YOUR still please..

(hint, it's all about property right's)

1,184 posted on 01/01/2002 7:36:01 PM PST by Jhoffa_
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1174 | View Replies]

To: Texasforever
Not at all. But you can't pick and choose which amendments you want to adhere to. Either use it all, or forget it and carry on with the programs that are in place today.
1,185 posted on 01/01/2002 7:36:26 PM PST by AKbear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1170 | View Replies]

To: Jhoffa_
You'll have to be a little more specific.

What exactly are you asking?

1,186 posted on 01/01/2002 7:37:58 PM PST by OWK
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1184 | View Replies]

To: AKbear
Agreed, but any government program, federal, state, county, or local, must take into consideration the whole constitution including the entire Bill of Rights. Most especially the Bill of Rights.

Not prior to the 14th amendment. This country was founded on the principle of state sovereignty. The 14th amendment has led the way to the massive federal government that we have today.

1,187 posted on 01/01/2002 7:38:35 PM PST by Texasforever
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1178 | View Replies]

To: Jhoffa_
We finally made it baby..

Your application for membership in the Illuminati will be mailed to you in the morning. We'll have you fitted for a crown at our first opportunity. :)

1,188 posted on 01/01/2002 7:39:14 PM PST by Roscoe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1177 | View Replies]

To: Jhoffa_
A proud fink?

Congrats.

1,189 posted on 01/01/2002 7:39:15 PM PST by tpaine
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1177 | View Replies]

To: OWK

Okay..

Look, OWK we both know that there is really very little seperating Conservatives from Libertarians.. (certainly less than stands between Democrats and Libertarians.. can we agree on that?)

we differ on social issues, such as:

In a purely Libertarian society what is to prevent atrocities like public beastality? Or drug dealing?

(Provided the individual in question owns both the land and the drugs or the animal)

Basically, that was the question..

1,190 posted on 01/01/2002 7:41:01 PM PST by Jhoffa_
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1180 | View Replies]

To: tpaine
Obey the posting rules, you won't have a problem.
1,191 posted on 01/01/2002 7:41:27 PM PST by Roscoe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1189 | View Replies]

To: Jhoffa_
See, I told you all the effort would pay off in the long run

I'd like to thank the Academy ...

1,192 posted on 01/01/2002 7:42:21 PM PST by strela
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1177 | View Replies]

To: Texasforever
The 14th amendment has led the way to the massive federal government that we have today.

And the seventeeth made it impossible to reassert the power of the states.

1,193 posted on 01/01/2002 7:43:11 PM PST by OWK
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1187 | View Replies]

To: Roscoe
Congratulations, Jhoffa_! You've exposed the fact that they hate our Constitution and American system of government from its very beginnings.

What? Washington killed people and destroyed their property for the money they refused to fork over to the government. And you tell me that he was acting wholly within the Constitution?

Waco, originally, was due to suspected automatic weapons the Dividians were to allegedly have in their possession. That means that they alegedly owed money to the government. They were killed and their property was destroyed because of it.

Did you agree that the Dividians needed to be killed and their property destroyed because of the money they allegedly owed to the government?

1,194 posted on 01/01/2002 7:43:21 PM PST by AKbear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1181 | View Replies]

To: tpaine
I did not "NARC" anyone out..

I never complained.. Any post that was pulled happened to be pulled without any input from me what-so-ever..

Now, step away from the tinfoil you baby..

1,195 posted on 01/01/2002 7:43:39 PM PST by Jhoffa_
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1189 | View Replies]

To: Jhoffa_
I posted it. -- You answered it, dimbulb . - then it disappeared. -- Strela has semi-admitted to finkhood.

Try to keep up.

1,196 posted on 01/01/2002 7:44:52 PM PST by tpaine
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1179 | View Replies]

To: AKbear
Washington killed people and destroyed their property for the money they refused to fork over to the government.

The hate start showing its face. Thanks, AKbear.

1,197 posted on 01/01/2002 7:46:20 PM PST by Roscoe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1194 | View Replies]

To: Texasforever
Not prior to the 14th amendment.

Simply not true. The Supreme Court of Georgia in fact ruled that the second amendment applied to them well before the 14th was ratified. The 14th amendment remedied a particularly racist ruling by Justice Teney and his band of revisionists.

1,198 posted on 01/01/2002 7:47:02 PM PST by Demidog
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1187 | View Replies]

To: tpaine

And you wonder why your posts keep vanishing?

Look at OWK and Don H..

You don't see their posts evaporating do ya?

(It just may be something about you and your retorical style TPaine..)

1,199 posted on 01/01/2002 7:47:08 PM PST by Jhoffa_
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1196 | View Replies]

To: OWK
And the seventeeth made it impossible to reassert the power of the states.

I have seen that debate several times on the forum but I haven't studied it enough to have formed an opinion. I still wonder why it is wrong to elect senators instead of them being appointed.

1,200 posted on 01/01/2002 7:47:34 PM PST by Texasforever
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1193 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-50 ... 1,101-1,1501,151-1,2001,201-1,250 ... 2,101-2,137 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson