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Myth: The Founders Established A Wall of Separation Between Church and State
excerpt from the book Five Lies of the Century pp. 15-30 | 1995 | David T. Moore

Posted on 01/04/2002 6:53:58 PM PST by Sir Gawain

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Please forgive any typos. Numbered references available upon request.
1 posted on 01/04/2002 6:53:58 PM PST by Sir Gawain
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To: Victoria Delsoul; sabertooth; rnmomof7; thinkin' gal; 2sheep; ccwoody; texaggie79; wyldkard; owk
Please read and bump. It took a while to type. I'm tired now.
2 posted on 01/04/2002 6:55:54 PM PST by Sir Gawain
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To: sirgawain
Freedom OF religion has been transmogrified to freedom FROM religion.
3 posted on 01/04/2002 6:56:17 PM PST by LEGACIES ARE FOR LOSERS
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To: sirgawain
Well, I guess you know enough to already have your asbesties on....
4 posted on 01/04/2002 6:56:35 PM PST by r9etb
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To: sirgawain; CheneyChick; vikingchick; Victoria Delsoul; WIMom; susangirl; coteblanche...
Good work, gawain!

(((ping))))


5 posted on 01/04/2002 6:56:44 PM PST by Sabertooth
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To: sirgawain
Hope you brought an Asbestos suit! You are really gonna get flamed by all of the status quo idiots that believe everything the Media tells them.
6 posted on 01/04/2002 7:00:19 PM PST by Destructor
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To: sirgawain
btt
7 posted on 01/04/2002 7:03:41 PM PST by fivetoes
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To: sirgawain
Major Bump
8 posted on 01/04/2002 7:04:52 PM PST by RaceBannon
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To: sirgawain
"Numbered references available upon request."

Number 20, please.

9 posted on 01/04/2002 7:05:31 PM PST by toenail
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To: sirgawain
Good work. However I don't think this will change the minds of Christian haters here on FR or in the US population.
10 posted on 01/04/2002 7:05:58 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: sirgawain
Long before the Constitution, there was the New Testament. In it's pages you'll find a similar happening as you described above: the eroding of the essential, pure original message. One chip at a time...until it's no longer recognizable.

Truly, Jesus Christ is the ONLY person that ever lived who inspired such fervent and sustained attack. Mention His name specifically and state that no one can have a relationship with God unless they bow to Him and you'll WISH you were only dealing on the Conservative/Liberal front!

11 posted on 01/04/2002 7:06:29 PM PST by avenir
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To: sirgawain
Amen, Bro !


12 posted on 01/04/2002 7:07:37 PM PST by Texas Eagle
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To: RnMomof7
And I continue to wait patiently for information on The Church of the United States where the head of the church is also the President of the United States. Until I get that info, I'll concentrate on more pressing issues than the fradulent seperation clause.
13 posted on 01/04/2002 7:09:05 PM PST by gov_bean_ counter
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To: sirgawain
Sorry, but you must be mistaken. The humanists know everything there is to know, both seen and unseen.
14 posted on 01/04/2002 7:12:38 PM PST by copycat
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To: gov_bean_ counter
I am waiting for the first Methodist or Baptist or Presbyterian church to send its members out to hijack a plane or form an army.
15 posted on 01/04/2002 7:12:48 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: sirgawain
Well, sir, you never cease to surprise. Nice work.

Of course, as long as the atheist/libertarian wing continues wilfully to ignore the fact that their philosophy is built on Christian foundations, this article won't change any minds....

Not to mention that the supposedly libertarian glory days of the past were made possible because the population was largely made up of Christians whose beliefs required them to follow those rules.

16 posted on 01/04/2002 7:15:09 PM PST by r9etb
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To: avenir
"Long before the Constitution, there was the New Testament. In it's pages you'll find a similar happening as you described above: the eroding of the essential, pure original message. One chip at a time...until it's no longer recognizable."

That reminds me of a quote:

"It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentence toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it. Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others, again, of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I separate, therefore, the gold from the dross; restore him to the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, the roguery of others of his disciples. Of this band of dupes and imposters, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and the first corruptor of the doctrines of Jesus."

-- Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to W. Short, 1820. Thomas Jefferson, a Deist (not a Christian) was, of course, the author of the Declaration of Independence and of the Virginia Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom.

17 posted on 01/04/2002 7:16:58 PM PST by toenail
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To: sirgawain
Excellent!!

I like this:

The separation of church and state was so foreign to the roots of America that Congress even approved a special printing of the Bible for use in public schools. In 1781, a publisher petitioned Congress for permission to print Bibles. Congress not only approved his request but issued this statement in 1782: "The Congress of the United States approves and recommends to the people, the Holy Bible...for use in schools."12 Interestingly enough, that statement isn't included within the NEA policy handbook. When the congressional recommendation was challenged, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled, "Why not the Bible, and especially the New Testament, be read and taught as a divine revelation in the schools? Where can the purest principles of morality be learned so clearly or so perfectly as from the New Testament?"13

18 posted on 01/04/2002 7:18:07 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: sirgawain
For the past forty years the Liberals have been able to heavily influence legislation. The Liberals have managed to cram their beliefs down our throats because so many of us refuse to get involved.

In todays schools, it's OK to teach 6th grade students the importance of tolerance, Homosexual rights, same sex marriages, abortion rights and birth control. But if the teacher tries to teach about personal responsibilty or the common sense notion of being held accountable for your actions, he or she will most likely be suspended. Heaven forbid if the teacher mention GOD in the classroom, he or she will be terminated on the spot.

Look what our schools have become ever since GOD was thrown out of them!

19 posted on 01/04/2002 7:18:54 PM PST by MJY1288
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To: sirgawain
Thomas Jefferson to Danbury, Connecticut, Baptist Association, January 1, 1802
20 posted on 01/04/2002 7:19:06 PM PST by michigander
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To: sirgawain
Pretty much your standard reconstructionist argument. It avoids the legal realities however.
21 posted on 01/04/2002 7:20:23 PM PST by Demidog
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To: sirgawain
What I understood, and was taught, and read, was that they specified "A seperation of the POWERS of CHURCH and STATE".

Their intent was to keep the STATE from using the powers and influence of the CHURCH to manipulate/control the populace.

This was the reason they left ENGLAND and came to the Americas, was to set up a gov't like this, and not like ENGLAND's where the CHURCH and STATE were intimately linked, and the STATE declared you must practice the chosen religion.

22 posted on 01/04/2002 7:20:23 PM PST by UCANSEE2
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To: UCANSEE2
Isn't it funny how the media, politicians can leave ONE WORD out of a sentence, and use it to confound an entire nation.

Once again, they did not declare a separation of church and state,

but a Separation of the POWERS of CHURCH AND STATE ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

23 posted on 01/04/2002 7:22:04 PM PST by UCANSEE2
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To: MJY1288
Look what our schools have become ever since GOD was thrown out of them!

Excellent point. I wonder if anyone has the stats on how many school shootings there were before prayer was taken out of school and how many there have been since prayer was removed. I'd also like to have a practicing anti-Christian bigot explain to me why it's okay to pray in school AFTER a school shooting but not before.

24 posted on 01/04/2002 7:23:06 PM PST by Texas Eagle
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To: sirgawain
You're right - we are no longer a Christian nation. We are not even a post-Christian nation. We live in an anti-Christian nation. But then, our heavenly Father told us there'd be days like this....
25 posted on 01/04/2002 7:31:36 PM PST by anniegetyourgun
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To: toenail
Of this band of dupes and imposters, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and the first corruptor of the doctrines of Jesus

Amen to that!
26 posted on 01/04/2002 7:35:03 PM PST by NatureGirl
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To: toenail
Thomas Jefferson, a Deist (not a Christian)

Late in life, Jefferson acknowledged he was a Unitarian and proselytized on their behalf. He was not a deist.

27 posted on 01/04/2002 7:35:30 PM PST by LarryLied
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To: UCANSEE2
Here is the ammendment:

Amendment 1

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

28 posted on 01/04/2002 7:35:34 PM PST by MJY1288
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To: toenail
Toenail, you're like a hangnail. You should only cite off hand remarks, contemperaneous politically motivated pandering to the religious, and vague statements. Just ignore the majority of statements by our deist and agnostic forefathers for the exceptions to prove a "rule." And please, don't quote a document that most of our forefathers actually contributed and signed which might throw a monkey wrench into the gears, like:

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

Bunch of pagans if you ask me. :)

29 posted on 01/04/2002 7:42:02 PM PST by Shermy
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To: MJY1288
So, does this follow what I said. The founders wanted a gov't that did not have the power to tell you which religion to practice or not to practice ?

If you were agreeing with my by supplying the amendment, I respectfully Thank You !

30 posted on 01/04/2002 7:43:24 PM PST by UCANSEE2
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To: Texas Eagle
"I wonder if anyone has the stats on how many school shootings there were before prayer was taken out of school and how many there have been since prayer was removed. I'd also like to have a practicing anti-Christian bigot explain to me why it's okay to pray in school AFTER a school shooting but not before."

http://www.columbine-angels.com/other_shootings.htm

I'd like someone to explain to me why Christians let the government raise their kids in the first place.

31 posted on 01/04/2002 7:50:21 PM PST by toenail
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To: Sabertooth
Thanks for the heads up!
32 posted on 01/04/2002 7:52:06 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: toenail
I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentence toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it.

No King but King Thomas !........I don't know.....doesn't quite carry the same weight......

33 posted on 01/04/2002 7:52:21 PM PST by Texas Eagle
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To: UCANSEE2
Your Welcome, That is how it was originally written, but we must understand that Bill Clinton and the majority of Liberals are still struggling with the meaning of the word "is"
34 posted on 01/04/2002 7:52:56 PM PST by MJY1288
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To: Shermy
"I rejoice that in this blessed country of free inquiry and belief, which has surrendered its conscience to neither kings nor priests, the genuine doctrine of one God is reviving and I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian."
--Thomas Jefferson June 22, 1822

Unitarians such as Jefferson, John John Quincy and Abigal Adams,Julia Ward Howe and Millard Fillmore, among others, did consider themselves Christians.

35 posted on 01/04/2002 7:53:22 PM PST by LarryLied
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To: sirgawain
You are the only person I have ever heard other than my father to outline that point. That perspective(truth) was actually taught in schools back in the 1950s. I was raised to beleive all the things you have written about. I wish you would submit that as an oped to a few hundred newspapers. Piss on the left and all they stand for. GODBLESSTHEUSA. No separation here.
36 posted on 01/04/2002 7:53:52 PM PST by satchmodog9
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To: LarryLied
Unitarians Christians? (ok don't flame me!)

But that was at the end of his life, not during the relevant times of country building.

37 posted on 01/04/2002 7:55:53 PM PST by Shermy
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Comment #38 Removed by Moderator

To: toenail
Number 20, please.

Harold K. Lane, Liberty! Cry Liberty! (Boston: Lamb and Lamb Tractarian Society, 1939) 32-3.

39 posted on 01/04/2002 8:04:46 PM PST by Sir Gawain
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To: UCANSEE2
Our fore-fathers had the wisdom and foresight to see the danger of states or nations that are ruled by a religion or a religous organization, and the danger of the state ruling the religion. This doesn't mean their has to be a absolute seperation, it just means government can't rule or be ruled by a religion.

Just look at every single country on the planet that is governed by a religous entity or person! It results in oppression and dictatorships, but when religion is denied you have Godless and morally bankrupt countries like China and the former Soviet Union. My belief is: The Founding Fathers made sure it was understood we were founded under "One God" and the seperation between church and state is that no laws or shall be made for or against religion. So I believe when our children were denied the right of prayer in school, that is when our Constitutional Rights were violated

40 posted on 01/04/2002 8:07:20 PM PST by MJY1288
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To: sirgawain
"Harold K. Lane, Liberty! Cry Liberty! (Boston: Lamb and Lamb Tractarian Society, 1939) 32-3."

Condensed Debating Points:


PRO 10  James Madison

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments." David Barton's book The Myth of Separation

CON 10.1

The only problem with the above is, no such quote has ever been found among any of James Madison's writings. None of the biographers of Madison, past or present have ever run across such a quote, and most if not all would love to know where this false quote originated. Apparently, David Barton did not check the work of the secondary sources he quotes.


41 posted on 01/04/2002 8:15:50 PM PST by toenail
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To: Shermy
Jefferson was always on the Unitarian page. Only at the end did he come out and admit it. All these guys were weaned on the Bible. For any of them to go outside their culture and become some sort of vague "deist" unconnected to the Judeo-Christian heritage was rare. Paine is the only one I know of who clearly stated he was a deist.

And yes, Unitarians back then, unlike many today, were Christians. Despite what most everyone else called them :-)

42 posted on 01/04/2002 8:18:47 PM PST by LarryLied
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To: Texas Eagle
"I'd also like to have a practicing anti-Christian bigot explain to me why it's okay to pray in school AFTER a school shooting but not before."

That would be a good question for the ACLU (Anti.. Christian.. Liberal.. Union..)

43 posted on 01/04/2002 8:18:48 PM PST by MJY1288
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To: toenail
Thanks for the timely reply. I didn't notice any reference as to when God was kicked out of our public schools so I picked 1970 as my cut-off point. I counted 7 incidents of schoolground killings. Two of which were committed by adults. I couldn't count how many occurred after 1970 but it must be close to 50 (not including the killings in Luxembourg and Sweden). My conclusion: Schools were safer before we kicked God out

As far as Christians allowing the government to raise their kids... I don't know if sending kids to school amounts to having the government raise them, but the question does have some validity.

Obviously there is no quick-fix that will take us back to pre-1970 school safety levels, but let's at least acknowledge that schools were safer before we kicked God out.

44 posted on 01/04/2002 8:25:30 PM PST by Texas Eagle
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Comment #45 Removed by Moderator

To: MJY1288
Hey, I am in complete agreement !
46 posted on 01/04/2002 8:28:12 PM PST by UCANSEE2
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To: toenail
Reply to post #17: On September 6, 1819 Thomas Jefferson Wrote: the Constitution is a mere thing of wax in the hands of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form they please. On September 28, 1820, Jefferson wrote to William Jarvis: you seem to consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions; a very dangerous doctrine indeed,and one that would place us under the depotism of an oligarchy. our judges are honest as other men, and not more so... and their power [is] the more dangerous, as they are in office for life and not responsible, as the other functionaries are, to the elective control. The Constitution has erected no such single tribunal, knowing that to whatever hands confided, with corruptions of time and party, its members would become despots. On November 4,1820 Thomas Jefferson wrote to Jared Sparks: I hold the precepts of Jesus as delivered by Himself, to be the most pure, benevolent and sublime which have ever been preached to man...
47 posted on 01/04/2002 8:31:54 PM PST by A6M3
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To: Texas Eagle
"As far as Christians allowing the government to raise their kids... I don't know if sending kids to school amounts to having the government raise them, but the question does have some validity."

Alliance for the Separation of School and State

Also see this recent thread (an excellent read).

48 posted on 01/04/2002 8:34:34 PM PST by toenail
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To: eightroundclip
"Let the atheists home school."

I intend to.

49 posted on 01/04/2002 8:36:07 PM PST by toenail
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To: eightroundclip
You are correct, I meant to say, when teachers were not allowed to begin the day with the Lords Prayer.
50 posted on 01/04/2002 8:40:31 PM PST by MJY1288
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