Skip to comments.Towards a Lasting Middle East Peace
Posted on 01/20/2002 8:45:33 AM PST by Demidog
At the National Press Club, Washington DC , 11 December 2001
With G-Ds help May the Creator grant that my words find favor in His eyes.
Each days news brings with it horrible tales of suffering from the Holy Land . The death toll on both sides mounts steadily. Indeed, so overwhelming is the seemingly never-ending stream of death and mayhem that it requires an exceptionally bloody day to merit significant media consideration. We have all grown accustomed to the fact that the Israeli state and its Palestinian opponents are locked in mortal combat. So it has been, so it is and so, it seems, it always will be.
Indeed, this pessimistic prognosis seems rooted in a century of precedent. The first Jewish settlers who came to Palestine with the intention of establishing a sovereign Jewish state there arrived towards the end of the nineteenth century. Palestinian nationalism then generally subsumed under the title Arab nationalism but soon to assume its more particularistic title began to flourish at about the same time.
The clash of these movements was played out through various wars, atrocities, revolutions and dispossessions throughout the twentieth century. Various strains of ideology in these rival nationalisms have attempted to bring the matter to closure, either by force of arms or, at times, by recourse to the negotiating table.
All these efforts, be they military or compromise oriented, have one fact in common. Their result is always the same. They have failed failed utterly and totally. We may delude ourselves by yet dreaming, as many do, that there is one final war or one last peace plan which can calm all those concerned. Unfortunately there is no indication that such is the case.
We of Neturei Karta International find the toll of dead and wounded on both sides to be intolerable. We feel that it is high time for a radical departure from the assumptions that have governed and, effectively stifled free debate on the subject.
Our perspective is far from new. It is the centuries old view of the Torah. It was once universally shared by all Jews and it is only our peoples recent flirtation with assorted secularist dogmas that have caused it to be forgotten of late in some quarters.
Simply stated The essence of Judaism is our faith -- our belief that G-d spoke to Moses and the assembled multitudes at Sinai and there gave His Revelation to the world. This was, is and always will be, Judaism.
The Jewish exile from the Holy Land , which followed the Roman destruction of the Second Temple close to two thousand years ago, was always viewed by our people as a Divine punishment. The state of exile in which we found ourselves was not seen as the result of military or political weakness. Rather, the Creator had decreed that until such time as He would chose to redeem the world, world Jewry was to remain in exile. The only possible means to alter what was and is a metaphysical state are spiritual. Repentance, prayer, Torah study, deeds of kindness and the like could hasten redemption. Nothing else would be effective. Any other means of ending exile is metaphysically doomed to failure.
Zionism was a movement dedicated to altering this traditional view of redemption. It posited that political maneuvering; revolutionary terror, war and dispossession would yield Jewish salvation.
Nothing could be further from the truths of Judaism.
However, Zionism not only broke with the teachings of our faith, it also entered upon a campaign, now over one hundred years old, to persuade and, eventually, force, when possible, Jews to abandon their allegiance to G-d and the Torah and recreate themselves as secular nationalists.
The Zionist movement was not only a heretical departure from Judaism and a practical attempt to lure Jews from their Torah. It was also monstrously blind to the indigenous inhabitants of the Holy Land . In the 1890s, less than 5% of the Holy Land s population was Jewish, yet, Theodore Herzl had the nerve to describe his movement as that of a people without a land for a land without a people.
Time and again both Revisionist and Labor Zionists, the former overtly and the latter under the clouds of deceptive rhetoric, have sought the elimination of the Palestinian people from their state. They have dispossessed thousands and refused them the right of return or minimum compensation. They have kept the people of Gaza and the West Bank stripped of basic political and human rights and denied them the dignity of self-determination.
This aggression has plunged the region into its never-ending spiral of bloodshed.
Sad to say, the bloody results of Zionism were not unexpected. They were foretold in the Talmud. There we read that a human based attempt to return en masse to the Holy Land would result in terrifying loss of life. This is an unpleasant truth but its seems quite validated by the past centurys events.
People of the Press, I have come before you today to offer a new perspective on the Middle East, a new explanation as to why all previous attempts at peace making have failed. It is our belief that they are inherently doomed to fail. All of them share one fatal assumption. They find it axiomatic that the state of Israel should exist. And, in contrast to the plain evidence of the past half-century of Jewish history they see its existence as a positive development for the Jewish people.
Only blind dogma could at this date see Israel as something good for the Jewish people. Established as a so-called safe haven it has consistently over the past five decades been the most dangerous place on the face of the earth for a Jew to live. It has been the source of tens of thousands of Jewish deaths, of families torn apart and has left a trail of grieving widows, orphans and friends in its wake.
Not to mention the countless thousands of Jewish souls diverted from religion. And our Rabbis state If you cause one to sin, it is worse than killing him.
And, let us not forget that this tale of physical Jewish suffering is far magnified among the Palestinian people, a nation condemned to poverty, persecution, homelessness, all pervasive hopelessness and all too often, a far too premature, death.
This web of pain, the cries and tears of the grieving, demand of us as Jews that we return to the wellsprings of our faith. We must accept our task to serve G-d in humility and peace. This is the essence of a Jew.
And, when so doing we will inevitably reject the bizarre and malicious doctrines of Zionism, the falsification of Judaism.
We will realize that defying the Divine decree of exile is doomed to bloody failure.
We will realize that our peoples hopes cannot be built by shattering those of another people.
We will demand and with G-ds, help live to see the peaceful dismantling of the state. We will return the land to those who dwelt upon it for centuries, the Palestinian people. Under their sovereignty, we will work towards a just solution to any Jewish Palestinian problems created by the brief period of Zionist ascendancy.
There are Im sure some skeptics here in the audience who feel that a Palestinian state would represent a threat to the Jewish people. My friends, I have been there time and time again as Neturei Karta International has visited Palestinian and Islamic organizations and I have been greeted with extraordinary warmth and brotherly concern. We have visited Iran , been hosts of the government. We were allowed to speak in Iran to both Jewish and non-Jewish audiences, without any prior censorship. We have discovered time after time, that Muslims in general actually yearn for good relations with Jews and, that when the evil face of Zionism is stripped away, the naturally good relations between our peoples bubbles to the surface.
Actully history bears witness that through out the centuries Muslim countries were extremely hospitable to the Jews. In fact as a general rule the Jews faired far better in those countries than in other host lands.
And in Palestine alone our grandparent have testified to the fact that the Muslims and Jews lived in peace and harmony up until the advent of Zionism.
Many stories of the close friendship that existed at that time circulate in the Jewish communities, for instance, baby sitting each others children was a daily occurrence
We also operate a web site. There isnt a day goes by when we dont receive e- mails from around the Islamic world. They are all positive. They bless, express love and brotherhood. Often they credit us with having cured them of anti Jewish sentiments. From Yemen to Great Britain the delight these people experience in finding anti Zionist Jews is palpable.
This then is the image we offer as an alternative to the current horror of a Jewish people free of the need to kill and be killed, free to pursue their Divine task of Torah practice and free to live in peace and respect with all men. May the Creator grant that we all be worthy of seeing that day. And ultimately the day when all will recognize the one G-D and serve Him in harmony. AMEN
Again...that seems to be the sole purpose of his quest. And he claims that Zionism practiced precludes the Messianic era from returning.
The Neturei Karta holds, among other things, that the holocoust was visited upon the Jews by Hitler because they were too "disobedient", and didn't "know their place". Posting from Neturei Karta is no different than posting from any other holocoust-denial/revisionist/Aryan/stormfront/whatever outlet.
Odie-dog is showing his spots.
How can you possibly know whether he is substantiated or not? You just had two Jewish posters state he is not. These are conservative Jewish posters and freepers. I wonder why you would, notwithstanding that, continue to believe this character who I have already noted has either lied about Arab-Jewish history or he has buried his head in the sand. He's not much of a reliable source for anything based on a major historical faux-pas.
Again, this is a deeply philosphical argument based enitrely on Jewish thought. I am extremely curious to know what his Torah and Talmudic sources are to say that one must precede the other. He says in the speech that the Talmud says death will occur if one occurs before the other, and that that is a sin. Nevertheless, that does not mean that it will preclude the promise!
I will have to check out his website and see what are his Halachic sources to insist that the sequence of events must occur as he says.
I wish you would just keep to the arguments you and I are having until you can properly understand what is being said between us.
Lol. Go educate yourself, Odie. No excuses. Come back when you know more than an average vegetable. Until then, you're on my twit-list ;).
PS. I would prefer not TO be suspended at all, now OR in the future, but if limititations to speaking only the beliefs of others become a part of this forum, I would go away of my own volition.
If you (or anyone else) is/are so threatened by opposing opinions to the degree that dissenting voices would be stilled in this venue ... well then, surely there are others.
For myself, I grieve that the deaths of innocent children will continue because God has been removed from the hearts of the men who rule the world and their mindless followers.
OK. That is a point well taken.
Wasting keystrokes towards flaming folks takes away points. Why not offer some intelligent discussion?
Are you absolutely sure that is what he is saying? I only read the speech once, I will have to read it again to find it... If you can snip out the quote(s) that say that I'd be much obliged.
PS you're welcome and thank you.
"Rabbi" Weiss is obviously about as ignorant of history as it is possible to be. Doesn't sound like he's very familiar with the Torah, either. Demidog had to dredge pretty deep to come up with this "specimen of learning."
I very much know what you're stating. And unless you can come up with more than vacuous comments your posting has the weight of a lot of hot air. And by the way, if you want to restrict comments on this thread then state in your post that you only want that poster to post to you otherwise your posting occurs on an open forum for all the public to see and comment on as I will continue to do so.
This is what I was talking about here. I think what he is saying is that Zionism is in and of itself a violation of the Torah and a rejection of G-d.
Lol. I'll give you one more before dropping you. I gave you sources. The Neturei Karta. Go educate yourself on that movement. It's not difficult, if you have an iq over 90. In fact, you can do it straight off the net. No excuses, Odie ;)).
Now go do something with your head.
I have to have some taken away, you know. Or it would be too unfair.
I understood the point. What is it you don't understand about that except you don't like the answer.
"Rabbi" Weiss is obviously about as ignorant of history as it is possible to be
What? Are you trying to insinuate that the Jews have never lived in peace with their neighbors?
No you didn't. There was no disagreement whatsoever over what the Torah said. That is why I wish you'd stick to our disagreements and stay out of the others.
And he also said the Jews and Arabs have always lived in peace. Now I ask you again, notwithstanding that he has patently lied about this, or that he is woefully ignorant and the fact two Jewish posters have already stated to you his Torah version is not correct, why do you insist on parroting his nonsense?
I think what he is saying is that Zionism is in and of itself a violation of the Torah and a rejection of G-d.
Can you actually post two more contradictory statements than you just have in the above?
What next? Norman Finkelstein? David Irving? More from this fringe-character 'Rabbi'? Nutcakes all.
Yeah, I'm familiar with the Orthodox Judaic argument against the theological validity of Zionism.
I try to avoid commenting on it for two reasons:
1.) Other Orthodox Jews say Zionism is as kosher as motzah. So it's an intramural spat in an area where my expertise is limited.
2.) My inclination would be to say, "The rabbi is right, Zionism is theologically invalid... you should all become Christians!!" But that would probably sound self-serving coming from a Christian and all...
...Mainly, the anti-Zionist theological argument, like the pro-Zionist theological argument, I do not consider particularly relevant to the legal validity of Israeli claims to the West Bank (aka Judea and Samaria). Those matters have more to do with post 1897-developments onward, than with Torah and Talmud. (I.E., even if Zionism is a theologically invalid form of Judaism, Zionist Israel has proper legal right to exist and proper legal claim to its current territories).
None of this would invalidate the human right of Palestinians in Ramallah (or for that matter, Jews in Haifa) to establish a new State, per the universal Human Rights detailed in the Declaration of Independence. Trouble is, for such Revolution to be just, the Revolutionists muct be both revolting against oppression, and proposing a government which respected those Rights detailed in the Declaration of Independence. The current intifada just isn't fitting that bill.
He did? Where did he say always?
LOL. OK. But I hope you understand that I am not questioning the legal right of Israel to exist.
And in Palestine alone our grandparent have testified to the fact that the Muslims and Jews lived in peace and harmony up until the advent of Zionism.
If this is not ALWAYS then you better take some comprehension lessons. That is, Jews and Arabs lived in peace UP until ZIONISM. Therefore, Zionism is to blame. Hooey.
Which "his version" are you talking about? I have stated already that I am not a scholar of the Torah. So I have pretty much refrained from making any statements about it. The disagreements that I have had on this thread so far are WHAT he has claimed as opposed to whether it is true or not.
Monkeyshine and I, if there were any real disagreements, have been discussing the substance of his statements rather than what the Torah actually says. That is where you came into error.
If you advance a position and then purport to justify it then put up or shut up.
Monkeyshine and I, if there were any real disagreements, have been discussing the substance of his statements rather than what the Torah actually says
And yet you continued to parrot his version as if you didn't believe a word monkeyshine or the Jewish posters asserted. Is this your version of the "catch me if you can" argument?
What position have I advanced? Do you even know?
I was going to say that but you beat me to it. BTTT.
Nah. You're posting an analysis of that theological opposition to Zionism which is held in good faith by a number of devout Orthodox Jews (mindful that many other Orthodox Jews are staunch adherents of the theological validity of Zionism), and submitting it to the consideration of FR's interested parties for comment.
Nothing wrong with that. We debate theology on this Forum quite a lot, after all.
I haven't parroted anyone's version at all. In fact if you had any intellectual honesty you would have also noticed when I conceded a point to Monkeshine. But it appears as if you are more interested in creating disagreements where none exist.
That's propbably the worst defence I've seen of anybody in my life. You obviously know exactly what I mean't when he unequivocally stated there was nothing but harmony between Jews and Islam (which in the context of Israel means the ARAB ISLAMICS) UNTIL zionism came along. Now, do you consider him on this point to either be stupid, or dishonest?
You haven't impugned his interpretation of the Torah at all. If you did you wouldn't still be here posting because on his interpretation does the rest of his ideology rest. If you are prepared to cede his interpretation of zionism is false then say so outright now.
So at what point did Islam and Jews become out of harmony in the region? If you are going to assert that Islamics and Jews were at each others throats prior to the Zionists arriving in Palestine, then what are you talking about?
Come out of harmony? Didn't you read the lengthy post I made giving an overview of that "relationship" over 12 centuries or so? Or is this another thing you conveniently missed?
You are really sloppy with your statements. It's hard for me to follow. "His interpretation" is overly broad. I haven't impugned anyones interpretion. I have disagreed with one person regarding Judaic law who claimed that Jews are forbidden from prosyletization.
You were discussing zionism with monkeyshine. Do you agree that the Torah does not exclude Israel being constituted as a precursor to the Messiah coming? Yes or no.
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