Towards a Lasting Middle East Peace

12/11/2001 | By: Rabbi Yisroel D. Weiss of Neturei Karta International

[Alouette]

I feel like they are our Taliban and Al-Qeda.

I was going to say that but you beat me to it. BTTT.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

LOL. OK. But I hope you understand that I am not questioning the legal right of Israel to exist. 131 posted on 1/20/02 1:25 PM Pacific by Demidog

Nah. You're posting an analysis of that theological opposition to Zionism which is held in good faith by a number of devout Orthodox Jews (mindful that many other Orthodox Jews are staunch adherents of the theological validity of Zionism), and submitting it to the consideration of FR's interested parties for comment.

Nothing wrong with that. We debate theology on this Forum quite a lot, after all.

[Demidog]

And yet you continued to parrot his version as if you didn't believe a word monkeyshine or the Jewish posters asserted.

I haven't parroted anyone's version at all. In fact if you had any intellectual honesty you would have also noticed when I conceded a point to Monkeshine. But it appears as if you are more interested in creating disagreements where none exist.

[Lent]

Before about 600 or so there were no muslims. So that alone has to limit the "always" to a certain period of time. That would be the time from the inception of Islam until 1896.

That's propbably the worst defence I've seen of anybody in my life. You obviously know exactly what I mean't when he unequivocally stated there was nothing but harmony between Jews and Islam (which in the context of Israel means the ARAB ISLAMICS) UNTIL zionism came along. Now, do you consider him on this point to either be stupid, or dishonest?

[Lent]

I haven't parroted anyone's version at all. In fact if you had any intellectual honesty you would have also noticed when I conceded a point to Monkeshine. But it appears as if you are more interested in creating disagreements where none exist

You haven't impugned his interpretation of the Torah at all. If you did you wouldn't still be here posting because on his interpretation does the rest of his ideology rest. If you are prepared to cede his interpretation of zionism is false then say so outright now.

[Demidog]

You obviously know exactly what I mean't when he unequivocally stated there was nothing but harmony between Jews and Islam

So at what point did Islam and Jews become out of harmony in the region? If you are going to assert that Islamics and Jews were at each others throats prior to the Zionists arriving in Palestine, then what are you talking about?

[Nix 2]

There has been no real peace between Muslims and Jews since the advent/invent of Muhammed. This *Rabbi* is not simply a liar, he sounds like one of Arafat's Imams. He has profaned the Torah. He has profaned and slandered MOST of Judaism, and when the Muslims are through with him, they will kill him just for BEING a Jew, no matter how many points he gets for them. He is as trustworthy on this subject as Bill Clinton while giving a treatise on what is is.

[Lent]

So at what point did Islam and Jews become out of harmony in the region? If you are going to assert that Islamics and Jews were at each others throats prior to the Zionists arriving in Palestine, then what are you talking about?

Come out of harmony? Didn't you read the lengthy post I made giving an overview of that "relationship" over 12 centuries or so? Or is this another thing you conveniently missed?

[Demidog]

You haven't impugned his interpretation of the Torah at all.

You are really sloppy with your statements. It's hard for me to follow. "His interpretation" is overly broad. I haven't impugned anyones interpretion. I have disagreed with one person regarding Judaic law who claimed that Jews are forbidden from prosyletization.

[Lent]

You are really sloppy with your statements. It's hard for me to follow. "His interpretation" is overly broad. I haven't impugned anyones interpretion

You were discussing zionism with monkeyshine. Do you agree that the Torah does not exclude Israel being constituted as a precursor to the Messiah coming? Yes or no.

[monkeyshine]

at what point did Islam and Jews become out of harmony in the region?

Just a guess, but it may have been on the day that Mohammed reneged on his 30 day old peace deal with the rulers of Mecca and sacked the city, killing and dispersing the Jews who lived there and the rulers alike? I believe this is all detailed in the Koran.

[Nix 2]

I have disagreed with one person regarding Judaic law who claimed that Jews are forbidden from prosyletization.

I didn't *claim* it. I stated it. It is a fact. Anyone who willingly converts to Judaism usually decides by LEARNING the religion first. In such a case, questions are permitted to be answered. But we do not preach to gentiles, nor do we try and convert them. IT IS FORBIDDEN!

[Buckeroo]

"Didn't you read the lengthy post I made giving an overview of that "relationship" over 12 centuries or so?" -- Lent, asking Demidog to come clean

All I see you post is that your love for the 50 year old Jewish state of Israel blinds you to the central issue of Palestine.

[Lent]

All I see you post is that your love for the 50 year old Jewish state of Israel blinds you to the central issue of Palestine

Taken that cold shower and aspirin yet?

[Nix 2]

There is no fifty year old issue of *Palestine*.

[monkeyshine]

Understand one thing. Virtually all religious Jews, Zionist or not, accept the principle that "there are 70 faces to the Torah". This means that there are 70 ways to read (interpret, see, evaluate) everything contained therein - from the literal to the metaphorical to the metaphysical to the bible codes and on and on. Moreover, each one of these 70 faces are all considered valid and intentional. Jewish scholarly research is based on this principle, and Jewish scholarship is all in all the effort to discover these 70 faces.

This is more or less how the joke about 2 Jews having 5 opinions comes about.

So when I say this rabbi stands on his ground, I am acknowleging that he may indeed have valid points. It's subject to interpretation and opinion. Jewish scholarship is extremely difficult -- sometimes two very valid points are in seeming contradiction with each other. But we're talking about people's hard core beliefs and the redemption of the world, so devout people are going to argue these beliefs vociferously and to their last breath. I don't have words of ill will for this rabbi or his opinion. I just think he is wrong. I am no Torah scholar either, just a layman who derives immense pleasure grappling in depths of understanding found in Jewish thought.

[Lent]

. I don't have words of ill will for this rabbi or his opinion

I do. He is either dishonest, or he is a very ignorant man. If you are going to advocate for the dismantling of a nation-state you better get you historical p's and q's together - or stick to flipping burgers.

[Buckeroo]

You are correct. The issue about Palestine is about 4,000 years old.

[monkeyshine]

To clarify what I think are his valid points is that the Jews need to return to God and Torah to hasten the arrival of Messiah. Where I think is wrong, and wrongheaded, is in believing that Zionism stands in the way of that.. and it is reasonably believeable that his efforts to dismantle Zionism will not advance the religiously necessary endeavor of returning Jews to God. Only his work towards returning Jews can accomplish that. In other words, I believe his efforts are being wasted at best, and at worst he is encouraging animosity towards Jews in so far as non-Jews perceive Israel and Zionism as representative of Jewish interests.

[monkeyshine]

I understand. See my reply to myself.