Posted on 02/18/2002 8:54:15 PM PST by rwfromkansas
Well then, if God is guiding history to a conclusion, He will need to intervene now and then to get us there. That is the Christian doctrine called 'Providence.' If He planned His end-game ahead of time, that is the Christian doctrine called 'Predestination.' If His intervention resulted in you being on the winning team after the end-game, that's called 'Election.'
I agree.
All men are sinners..it is a difference of desire.. Those that are His desire Him above all else. Those that are in the world desire to be their own gods (you know what I mean)..big difference!
Actually, I believe that the entire topic is so far removed from the totality of Scripture that none of it can be gotten scripturally.
Man died in the Garden of Eden. The only thing is, Adam lived over 900 years. Was God a liar when He said Adam would surely die? No, Adam did die that day,....spiritualy. He no longer could commune with God on His level. God is Spirit and man was created in His image, but his spirit died that day. We are as dead as roadkill in the highway to God. We like to think of ourselves as something special, but we are a stench in the nostrils of God. He has chosen a people, a called OUT people, for Himself. Everyone else remains dead! You can jump up and down and holler at the roadkill, screaming and kicking, begging for it to get up out of the road and live, but it will just stare up at the sky with no expression, just stinking. That was the fate of Lazarus. He was 4 days in the grave and stinking. This was not a magician trick, or maybe a little pre-med CPR that walked to the tomb that day. It was the Giver of Life! Jesus said,"Lazarus, come forth!" and he got up and hopped out of the tomb. I'm sure everyone has heard the sermon about "If Jesus just said "Come forth", the whole graveyard would get up and walk out. But He said "Lazarus"! This is the absolute spiritual picture of what happens to a saint.
Could Lazarus have stayed in the tomb? Where was his "free will"? Jesus will come to get "His people". Some vessles were made for destruction. If you can't accept that, take it up with God. He created you, and He can destroy you because you are His, to do with as He pleases. Is your will srong enough to tell God, "I ain't goin to Hell, no matter what you say!"? I don't think so. As a dead person, You cannot see Spirit, hear Spirit, touch or smell Spirit. He must make you alive, into a new creature, before you can hear Him call your name. YOU CAN NOT AND WILL NOT COME UNLESS YOU HEAR YOUR NAME FROM HIS LIPS. Jesus is the giver of life, and Him only. You have no power over life or death when you are already dead.
Now for the lecture part. It is a blaspheme to the Blood that Jesus shed for anyone to take any credit(God calls it Glory) for your salvation. It is fun and interesting to toss theories about the Bible around and have spirited discussions, but I believe God is very sensative about what Jesus went through for us on the cross. He will not share His Glory with men who insist that they were smart enough, good enough, thoughtfull enough, strong enough, pretty enough, or free willed enough to choose something that belongs to His son. Salvation is the free gift of God and He will give it to whoom He chooses, how He chooses. The important phrase there is HE CHOOSES.
It is dificult to understand that God killed every man woman and child, every animal, every bug, everything, except them on the Ark. I was in a Bible study once about the flood, and they figured out the possible population of the Earth at the flood, and it could have easily been in the billions. Everyone of those people went to hell. Like it or don't, God created them, He can take them out. Was everyone in the city of Sodom evil? All died except Lott and family. When you get to know God, you first must learn His awesomeness. It is called the fear of God. You need to know what He is capable of, and what you are capable of. I quickly learned, I am nothing without God. The job you have is His, and He can take it or give it. The family you have is His and He gave it to you. Your children are not yours, but you are resposible for the gifts He has trusted you with. Once you get the relationship down, then, He will reveal more of Himself to you in a personal way. I believe most of us never get to that point because we still want to think we have control over our lives and not Him.
He is the potter, we are the clay, and He makes us into the vessles we become.....rightious or not He is the Creator.
So no one can choose God until God chooses them and he can't choose them until the hear the Gospel, is that what this is all about?
I suspect there is some diversity among Calvinists. Some are probably conservative while others are libertarian. I doubt any are liberal since that would require one to be in touch with their feelings, naturally precluding Calvinists. /joke
P.S. Speak for yourself about the 'flaming' part.
Many of our greatest Christian thinkers would be puzzled by your belief. Have you familiarized yourself with the writings of Augustine, Martin Luther, and John Calvin? While you may choose of your own will to disagree with them, they did do an awful lot of Bible study before they picked up their Bics.
Even the atheist has to wrestle with the question "Am I a free agent? Or am I determined by the history of the chemical and physical reactions out of which I came?" "If I am not 'free,' how can I be held 'responsible,' for anything?" "If I am 'free' to choose, how does that develop out of a purely materialist base?" "Does not 'freedom' require a non-material source?"
The issue of "predestination / free choice" is something every thinking person struggles with, regardless of his religion or lack thereof.
1. Does God have free will?
2. Are we made in His image?
Rev 17:8 8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
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