Communist China will Try to Copy Giant Soviet Aircraft Carrier in Attempt to Expand its Naval Power

The London Times | March 5, 2002 | Oliver August

[rightwing2]

London Times
March 5, 2002
China Pays £17m For Giant Soviet Carrier
By Oliver August in Beijing

CHINA has taken delivery of a Ukrainian aircraft carrier and will try to copy the decommissioned vessel in an attempt to expand its naval power. A Chinese shipyard confirmed yesterday the arrival of the carrier in the northern port city of Dalian, where military experts are expected to use the vessel as a template for China’s own carrier design. The 1,000ft Varyag is the largest of at least three former Soviet carriers acquired by China. All the vessels were bought by private companies, allegedly with links to the military, which invited naval architects from the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) to inspect them.

A Western diplomat in Beijing said: "They already have a design on their computers ready for the day when they decide to build their own carrier. They will extract the best parts of the Varyag’s design and add them to their own." The Varyag, built a decade ago, was towed from the Black Sea around the Cape to the Yellow Sea. The Soviet Navy never finished building the vessel owing to a lack of funds after the end of the Cold War. The hull is not fitted with any electronic or hydraulic equipment. It was supposed to be turned into a casino in Macau, according to the official Chinese buyer, a company called Chong Lot that has no known links to the gaming sector but has been linked to the military. When Macau awarded new casino licences last month, Chong Lot was not among successful bidders.

Analysts believe that instead the PLA could use the Varyag as a training platform for carrier take-offs and landings. The purchase and towing of the carrier has cost about £17.5 million, probably making it too expensive for use as an entertainment facility. China paid the Ukrainian Government £14 million for the hull and the Turkish Government at least £210,000 as a transit fee. The towing is said to have cost between £2 million and £3.5 million. China’s other two decommissioned ex-Soviet carriers have been turned into floating amusement parks moored in the coastal cities of Shenzhen and Tianjin. Under pressure from Washington, the carriers were stripped of their most sensitive technology before Beijing was able to buy them.

Robert Karniol, the Asia editor of Jane’s Defence Weekly, said: "The Chinese haven’t seen this type of carrier before and it could be very useful to them. They are trying to vacuum up as much knowhow as they can." Beijing has long harboured plans to build aircraft carriers to catch up with the United States in terms of power projection. Liu Huaqing, a recently retired senior general who fought with Chairman Mao in the 1930s, has spoken of the 21st century as the "century of the sea" and called for rapid naval modernisation. In response, the US Navy has said that Chinese plans could upset the regional balance of power. Independent experts say, however, that the launch of a Chinese carrier is still many years away. China’s shipyards are believed to be able to build carrier hulls, but not the catapults to launch and recover aircraft. However, former Soviet naval architects may be available to help.

[rightwing2]

CHINA has taken delivery of a Ukrainian aircraft carrier and will try to copy the decommissioned vessel in an attempt to expand its naval power

I have been saying that the PLA Navy would use Varyag as the model for their own new class of 60,000 ton aircraft carriers for the last three years. The ChiCom plan is to build three flattops with the assistance of Russian naval technicians by 2011. They already can produce four carriers simultaneously as opposed to the US ability to produce only two at the same time. I have also been stating that the ChiCom cover story of 'floating casinos' was a bogus ruse to play down the military threat that they pose in the minds of US policymakers. This represents more vindication for myself and others here on FR who have been saying the same.

The 1,000ft Varyag is the largest of at least three former Soviet carriers acquired by China.

Actually the ChiComs have acquired four Russian aircraft carriers as I have pointed on out in my earlier posts although the fourth carrier, the Kiev, may still be in transit from Russia to the PRC.

[rightwing2]

BUMP!

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

China pays 17m for giant Soviet carrier

[Gillmeister]

You were'nt by chance stationed in Okinawa, were you?

[johniegrad]

Making them is different than operating them. Good luck, they'll be behind for years.

[Dukie]

Already predicted here in "Breath of Fire"

BTW Jeff I received your e mail message

[montomike]

As an ex bubblehead, sounds like one heck of a big target. I wonder if it would take one or two MK-48 ADCAPS?

[Thud]

We should sell the Chinese a stripped, decommissioned, Enterprise if we really want to screw 'em. They'd blow so much money on trying to duplicate it that they'll never be a threat to us.

[maro]

What you say sounds like the Russian reaction to growing Japanese military preparation at the turn of the century. Red China is a present military danger, to the US and our Asian allies. We need to take steps NOW, such as (1) re-arming Japan (would get them out of recession) and having a new Imperial Navy patrolling the Pacific for us, and (2) stopping all weapons sales to the ChiCom bastards.

[vannrox]

This is a PORTION of an ABC article on this very issue...

What’s to Become of the Soviet Carrier?
The Mystery of the Varyag

WORLD HEADLINES

“It could be a great tourist attraction … with pools, restaurants. It’s gold!”
— Worker at Nikolyav Shipyard, Ukraine

ABCNEWS’ Robert Krulwich searches for the Chung Lot Travel Agency
RealVideo
(download RealPlayer)

China plans to build its first aircraft carrier in 2010.

“The whole of Southeast Asia would be nervous if China was to purchase an aircraft carrier.”
— Glenn Schloss,
South China Morning Post

Suppose a country wants to buy a giant Soviet aircraft carrier … but they don’t want anyone to know. How might they do it? (ABCNEWS.com)

ABCNEWS.com
When the Cold War sputtered to an end nine years ago, there was a lot of talk about beating swords into plowshares. But poker chips?
     In one of the more bizarre tales of post-Soviet capitalism, a ship designed to wage war might instead be used as a giant pleasure craft, complete with casino and discotheque.
    It’s an unusual use of an aircraft carrier. Even more unusual are the buyers—four travel agents whose company isn’t where they say it is, and who seem to be on familiar terms with the Chinese military.
    Is something going on?

Games of Chance
     The story begins in 1989, when the once-mighty Soviet empire began to fall apart. Many big government projects simply ground to a halt.
     One of them was a Kuznetsov-class aircraft carrier called the Varyag, which was handed over to the new government of Ukraine. The Ukrainians didn’t know what to do with the 37,000-ton, three-quarters-finished ship, so they put it up for auction.
     In April, Ukrainian Trade Minister Roman Shprek announced the winning bid from a surprisingly small company called the Chong Lot Travel Agency Ltd.

Why spend $20 million for an unfinished aircraft carrier, then tug it half way around the world to open a hotel/casino? (Magellan Graphix/ABCNEWS.com)

     Chong Lot proposed to tug the Varyag out of the Black Sea, through the Suez Canal and around southern Asia to the tiny Portuguese colony of Macao, just off the Chinese coast. They said they would moor the ship in Macao’s harbor and put it to peaceful use as a floating hotel and gambling parlor.
     Local reporters noted that this was “not the most normal use for an aircraft carrier.” But even stranger is the fact that even before the deal was announced, officials in Macao had warned the Chung Lot Travel that they would not be permitted to park the huge ship in their harbor.

No One At That Address
So, if Macao had already nixed the notion of a floating entertainment complex, why did Chung Lot go ahead with plans to buy the warship?
     ABCNEWS has learned that the Chung Lot Travel Agency does not have offices in Macao—at least not at the address they gave in their bid for the Varyag. In fact, there’s no such company listed anywhere in Macao.
     It turns out that Chung Lot is owned by a Hong Kong firm called Chin Luck (Holdings) Company.
     Four of Chin Luck’s six board members hail from the same area in China—Shandong Province—which just happens to be where the Chinese Navy builds its ships. And Chin Luck’s chairman is a former career military officer with the People’s Liberation Army. Coincidence?

Who’s Buying?
The question is, who really is buying this carrier? Four travel agents with a lot of money and a dream? Or are officials of Chung Lot Travel agents for somebody else?

Click here for a closer look at the People’s Liberation Army’s business empire.

    “Logic and common sense tell us that it’s really a front for the PLA to purchase an aircraft carrier for China,” says Glenn Schloss, a reporter at Hong Kong’s South China Morning Post. The whole of Southeast Asia would be nervous if China was to purchase an aircraft carrier.”
     If the unfinished, rusting hulk of the Varyag could help China develop something like the sophisticated modern carriers that the United States likes to send into trouble spots around the world, leaders outside of Southeast Asia would be alarmed as well. No one but Beijing is eager to see China projecting its power closer to Japan and Taiwan.
     On the other hand, no one’s going to worry if a few entrepreneurs turn the flat-top into a floating discotheque —even though Macao will follow Hong Kong and become part of China in December of 1999.
     The trouble is, Chong Lot has already paid the first $2 million for the Varyag. And we still don’t know what they’re buying it for.

[John H K]

We need to take steps NOW, such as (1) re-arming Japan (would get them out of recession) and having a new Imperial Navy patrolling the Pacific for us

Japan is ALREADY re-armed, they spend as much on defense as the PRC, and the current Japanese Navy, by itself, is clearly superior to the Chinese Navy.

[Poohbah]

I have been saying that the PLA Navy would use Varyag as the model for their own new class of 60,000 ton aircraft carriers for the last three years. The ChiCom plan is to build three flattops with the assistance of Russian naval technicians by 2011.

One fast-attack with Mark 48 ADCAPs would be sufficient to settle their hash if they start feeling froggy.

[vannrox]

[vannrox]

15:22 2001-11-02

DMIRY LITVINOVICH: BUSINESS IN UKRAINE. OR VARYAG’S LAST TRIP

How pitiful it is to take leave of the USSR’s former grandeur.

The country where we were born has disappeared from geographical maps, and all we have now is to complain about unwise politicians.

At the beginning of the 80s, in Nikolaev plant building an up-to-date aircraft-carrier Varyag was launched. This was the aircraft-carrier of new generation, leaving behind American “brothers” what about technical descriptions and quantity of armament on board. In its building, unique engineering working were used, allowing to aircraft to take off practically without starting run.

The ship was prepared to 80 percent, when the USSR collapsed.

After sharing the Black Sea Fleet, the unfinished ship passed to Ukraine. Of course, Ukraine did not have money to complete the building. The ship was gradually rusting, costly equipment was removed from it, while other details were stolen.

Ukraine tried to sell what remained from the ship, though it did not find any serious buyers. Finally, a buyer appeared. That was a Chinese businessman who decided to turn the ship into a kind of floating casino.

In its first and last trip to Chinese coast, Varyag should go this summer, though because of Turkey’s disagreement to let the ship pass through Bosporus, the trip was put off. Today, according to telegraph agencies, all contradictions are settled, and the ship went though Bosporus. 16 pilots were piloting the ship, while 250 people were guaranteeing its security from shore.

Why China needs the ship is unknown, though there is a rumour China has some troubles in its aircraft-carrier programme.

Lack of qualified staff and of experience in building ships of such a level does not allow to China to claim to world power standard. They probably, need the ship as a kind of visual aids. If China obtains what it plans, then in 5-10 years its ambitions will become a headache for Russia.

Russia does not have funds for its fleet’s modernization, all the more for building a new one. Something is being done, though it is not enough. Why Russia did not buy the unfinished aircraft-carrier to complete its building? And now we could only regret the ship with its proud name “Varyag” has been turned into a gambling-den.

Dmitry Litvinovich

[Rebelbase]

The U.S. should convince France to offer the ChiComms help in buiding aircraft carriers.

[thepainster]

Would they build thier carries from scratch, or just finish building out the Russian ships?

[vannrox]

[Rebelbase]

I'd say it looks like were at about 1934-1935 right now?

[John H K]

This was the aircraft-carrier of new generation, leaving behind American “brothers” what about technical descriptions and quantity of armament on board.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! The ship was prepared to 80 percent, when the USSR collapsed.

It's not "80% complete" if there are no electronics, machinery, or hydraulics on board.

And there were NO protective steps ("mothballing" if you've seen a US mothball shipyard) taken when construction stopped. Hatches were left open all over the ship, water got in everywhere, sucker rusted like a mo-fo.

[Jeff Head]

In the new novel, Dragon's Fury - Breath of Fire, , the Red Chinese use the construction of two such vessels as a cover for other efforts equally disturbing.

Dragon's Fury - Breath of Fire
A Novel of the coming Third World War

[John H K]

I'd say it looks like were at about 1934-1935 right now?

I'd put the gap in the military capability of the US and the PRC as about 100 times the size of the gap between Nazi Germany and Great Britain in 1934-35.

[Rebelbase]

It ought to please the enviornmentalists when we eventually turn these proposed carriers into man made reefs.

[Rebelbase]

I was suggesting Japan's build-up of war material back in 34-35, but maybe the late 20's would be a better analogy.

You are correct, we are far advanced technologically. Yet, I think the Chicoms will advance rapidly at a greater pace based on the U.S. government approved technolgoy exchange that was arranged during the x42 years.

Reverse engineering has a tendency to speed up progress that normally would have taken much longer if traditional development were used.

War with China is inevitable. Better to beat a mad dog when its a puppy than to wait until it becomes a wolf.

[John H K]

It ought to please the enviornmentalists when we eventually turn these proposed carriers into man made reefs.

Actually, a lot of the more whacky environmentalists HATE man-made reefs. I'm a saltwater fisherman (DE, MD mostly) and the envirowhackos fought tooth-and-nail against a plan to dump hundreds of old NYC subway cars to form artificial reefs off NJ...and they won (Delaware ended up taking them.) Touted a bunch of crap about the "asbestos" in the cars (like asbestos underwater does anything to anybody, or anything.)

[Charles Martel]

Actually, a lot of the more whacky environmentalists HATE man-made reefs. I'm a saltwater fisherman (DE, MD mostly) and the envirowhackos fought tooth-and-nail against a plan to dump hundreds of old NYC subway cars to form artificial reefs off NJ...and they won (Delaware ended up taking them.) Touted a bunch of crap about the "asbestos" in the cars (like asbestos underwater does anything to anybody, or anything.)

They whine about the oil that continues to seep from the USS Arizona, too.

[Rebelbase]

Well, I guess the fish might breathe the asbestos...not!

[John H K]

It's my conviction that the PRC collapses in civil war, during the next 15-25 years it will need to even begin to rival the US militarily, long before the PRC military is respectable.

[Rebelbase]

Chinese civil war, interesting......Maybe Pepsi, KFC, Sony and Michael Jordan have done more to bring about a global awareness in China than we give them credit for......Get the masses hooked on pop culture, then threaten to pull the plug, watch the masses revolt.

I often thought that should be our policy in Cuba. Flood the place with western goods, letting the people see and taste that which they are deprived.

[joanie-f]

Thanks for the ping, Chris. We all knew that 'Breath of Fire' was prophetic. Sadly, we may not have known quite the extent of its fiction-turned-fact accuracy. Only time will tell.

(Proud to be collaborating with you on #2 :)

[Poohbah]

By 2015, China will be engaged in a new round of warlordism and barbarism, and they won't care about contesting power in the western Pacific--they will be far too busy trying to contest power in the streets of Beijing and Shanghai...

[Seydlitz]

Two questions, if I may be so bold:

(1) How did US trade policies towards China cause China to buy a Ukrainian aircraft carrier?

(2)You say that the politicians let China build its military. Are you advocating pre-emptive military strikes on the PRC?

[RichInOC]

I thought they had enough access to us that they could copy the good stuff, and they're going to crib off the Red Fleet instead? Dumbasses.

[Paul Ross]

Ya, ya. Warlordism, my eye. Same sort of wishful thinking was projected about the Nazi's. Didn't happen. And won't with nukes at their beck and call.

Further, we are looking at a cohesive IDEOLOGICALLY united heirarchy running multiple disinformation campaigns while racing in a military build-up of staggering proportions. And you continue to misunderstand the inherent dynamic weakness for deterrence, not to mention war-winning, for that matter, of the continuing erosion of the US Fleet capability, while the PRC is on the way to becoming a first-rank Navy.

[Thud]

You have an EVIL mind.

"The U.S. should convince France to offer the ChiComms help in buiding aircraft carriers.

[Rebelbase]

And...China will build 6 carriers a year while supplying every Cosco,WalMart and KMart with goods that we buy, which in turn profits the Chicom economy so that they can afford to build 6 carriers a year.

We are financing the future deaths of our own servicemen.

[Rebelbase]

Thankya, thankya very much...

[Rebelbase]

Bump your #40.

[Rebelbase]

"I thought they had enough access to us that they could copy the good stuff, and they're going to crib off the Red Fleet instead? "

Maybe they are just interested in heating their harbours. ;-)

[Seydlitz]

So, you think that without American help, 1,000,000,000 Chinese people could not manage to build a smallish (60,000 tons versus 97,000 tons for US carriers), low-tech aircraft carrier? Wow. Speaking of free trade, I might just have a bridge to sell you.

You also assume that with almost no naval tradition, that China would be able to build a fleet superior to that of the combined US, Japanese, Taiwanese and South Korean fleets? That would be quite a feat. Historically unprecedented, to say the least.

The Buchananite calls for no free trade (a.k.a the Supreme Corporate Welfare - No Foreign Competition & Fat Profits) are interesting, too. Somehow, letting American consumers buy cheaper goods, thereby leaving them with more money to save and invest in America's future, makes us a poorer country. Interesting. I wouldn't suppose you heard of a fellow named David Ricardo?

[Poohbah]

Ya, ya. Warlordism, my eye. Same sort of wishful thinking was projected about the Nazi's. Didn't happen.

Oh, really?

I don't recall anything like that being proposed in the 1930s. However, Chinese history is nothing but a series of ascents and declines--and they're coming due for another decline. When China declines, it usually declines into warlordism and banditry.

And won't with nukes at their beck and call.

That's what will make the future of China so interesting! A civil war with nuclear weapons, YEE-HAW!

Further, we are looking at a cohesive IDEOLOGICALLY united heirarchy running multiple disinformation campaigns while racing in a military build-up of staggering proportions.

China is four nations united at gunpoint. Unfortunately for the "ideologically united hierarchy," if they were to engage in overseas adventures, the manpower pool for said adventures would be those same people who are currently holding "China" together at gunpoint. They can't be everywhere at once.

And you continue to misunderstand the inherent dynamic weakness for deterrence, not to mention war-winning, for that matter, of the continuing erosion of the US Fleet capability, while the PRC is on the way to becoming a first-rank Navy.

Anyone who talks about the US Fleet suffering from "erosion" of capability knows about as much about real navies and what they do as Hillary Clinton knows about heterosexuality.

China will be building several aircraft carriers at just about the point in time where the aircraft carrier really starts suffering from its limitations as a single platform. Kinda like building monster battleships in 1941.

[Poohbah]

If the great Establishment in all it's pointy head wisdom, actually has come to unanimity in terms of how to use the Red Trade for subversion, there is still the very likely event that....IT WON'T WORK.

My argument has nothing to do with trade and everything to do with how China is actually four different nations, united at gunpoint. Said unification would not survive any overseas adventures.

[Sid Rich]

I'm new to the China threads. What are the 4 different nations you reference (ie--I'd like to hear your theory). Thanks.

[monday]

"ALL OF YOUR FREE-TRADERS WILL BE TO BLAME FOR THIS AND WILL JOIN BUSH AND CLINTON IN THE HALL OF TRAITORS!!!!!"

Thank you for this thought provoking tirade. And after you have reduced the American economy back to 1940's levels will you be happy then?

[New Zealander]

That looks a bit like a carrier designed for VTOL aircraft - do the Chinese have any VTOL aircraft?

[Sid Rich]

Will GW slapping tariffs on imported steel get him out of the hall of traitors or is it a "once in, never out" arrangement?