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FBI agents said to oppose inquiry (shooting of Eagle Scout in Maryland)
Baltimore Sun ^ | March 15, 2002 | Gail Gibson

Posted on 03/15/2002 6:22:07 AM PST by Mulder

Edited on 09/03/2002 4:50:06 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Two senior agents from the FBI's Baltimore office told a private detective yesterday that the mistaken shooting of an unarmed Pasadena man likely would be ruled a "clean shoot," and discouraged him from looking into the case further, the investigator said in an interview. Dudley F.B. "Butch" Hodgson, a former FBI agent who has been retained by the shooting victim's lawyers, said he was told by one of the agents: "There's no middle ground in this thing. You're either with us or against us."


(Excerpt) Read more at sunspot.net ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Government; News/Current Events; US: Maryland
KEYWORDS: banglist; donutwatch; fbi; gun; policestate
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1 posted on 03/15/2002 6:22:07 AM PST by Mulder
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To: Mulder

2 posted on 03/15/2002 6:22:42 AM PST by Mulder
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To: Mulder
"clean shoot,"

As opposed to what, a dirty shoot?

3 posted on 03/15/2002 6:25:04 AM PST by TADSLOS
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To: bang_list; Travis McGee; Darth Sidious;nunya bidness;coloradan;wardaddy;Squantos;harpseal
The cover-up continues.

I wounder if President Bush is "madder than heck" about this, like he was when one of his Royal Guards was kicked a commercial airliner?

4 posted on 03/15/2002 6:25:23 AM PST by Mulder
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To: donut watch
"Clean shoot."

"You're either for us or you're against us."

"Don't worry about the FBI. Stay focused on your obligation to Anne Arundel County and you won't go wrong.'"

5 posted on 03/15/2002 6:28:45 AM PST by coloradan
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Comment #6 Removed by Moderator

To: Mulder
"They say the office opinion on this case is, 'It's a good shooting,'" Hodgson told The Sun yesterday. "I said, 'Fine. If that's the case, the facts are going to come out and show that.'"

"Good shooting". Yeah, right up there with Randy Weaver's wife being shot in the head while holding her baby. And let's not forget about all the people who were gassed, shot, and run over by tanks at Waco. Apparently, a "good shooting" is when they get away with murdering innocent people. Oh, that's right, this kid isn't dead. I guess those other incidents were REALLY "good shootings". Here they just maimed an innocent person for life..

7 posted on 03/15/2002 6:34:10 AM PST by FormerLurker
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To: Mulder; Donald Stone; zog; sneakypete; Lurker; Noumenon
Hodgson said he received calls from Sam Wichner, firearms instructor for the Baltimore office, and from Jim Ellis, a supervisor in the Calverton office, which reports to the Baltimore field office.

I like this Hodgson [ex-FBI] guy.

Mulder, did you notice how this article conveniently left the shooter's name out? For the record, he is Christopher Baga, age 35.

8 posted on 03/15/2002 6:39:34 AM PST by Fred Mertz
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To: Mulder
Perhaps they meant a "cleansed" shooting, where everyone* involved comes out of it sparkling clean.

*Everyone except for the poor lad who was shot. I'm sure the FBI rues the fact the lad survived this blast to the face.

Now that we've seen the picture of the victim, where's the picture of the trigger happy agent?

Perhaps he's a member of the "shadow government's" "shadow law enforcement" division.

9 posted on 03/15/2002 6:43:00 AM PST by csvset
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To: Mulder
... (the victim's lawyer) was told by one of the agents: "There's no middle ground in this thing. You're either with us or against us."

No "middle-ground", eh, Agent? Circle the wagons?

Guess what, Agent.

We're law-abiding citizens here, and we're against you!

10 posted on 03/15/2002 6:43:32 AM PST by Gritty
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To: Mulder
What ever happened to the FBI that almost all Americans respected many decades ago....You know, the one under J Edgar Hoover who the Democrats, other socialists, and communists tarred and feathered with lies and deceit after his death so that they could gain control over this once marvelous organization?

Well, it all went down the old crapper because of such events as lowered hiring standards, affirmative action, and because of the ever present PC. Now we have agents round and about who are clearly incompetent, arrogant, and who are hostile to the rest of the population.

Truly sad.

11 posted on 03/15/2002 6:43:35 AM PST by rmvh
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To: Mulder
How in the world could an innocent person being shot EVER be considered a clean shoot?
12 posted on 03/15/2002 6:43:55 AM PST by Bikers4Bush
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To: Fred Mertz
he is Christopher Baga,

Is that name Baga or Braga?

13 posted on 03/15/2002 6:48:04 AM PST by scouse
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To: Fred Mertz
Mulder, did you notice how this article conveniently left the shooter's name out? For the record, he is Christopher Baga, age 35.

I thought it was "Barga", not "Baga", but I could be wrong.

The idea that this JBT is still on the payroll (with our tax dollars) is repulsive, although not surprising considering what happened at Waco and Ruby Ridge.

The local police should have arrested Barga on the scene instead of letting him "whoop it up" with his buddies after he shot the kid.

14 posted on 03/15/2002 6:49:23 AM PST by Mulder
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To: Bikers4Bush
That's the terminology used when the suspect's behavior, given the information available, justifies shooting him. (Remember, a "suspect" may be innocent.) Tragic "clean shoots" include:
- kid taking a firing stance and pointing a convincing toy gun (case: kid skulking around school at night with LaserTag gun)
- a guy suddenly ("furtive movement") drawing a black object from his coat after being told to not move (case: the Diallo shooting)
and plenty others.

This case is plainly a "dirty shoot" because the boy was told to get out of the car, and simply was unbuckling his seat belt: he was following directions and made no furtive movement.

This case must not stand.

15 posted on 03/15/2002 6:54:15 AM PST by ctdonath2
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To: Fred Mertz
Mulder, did you notice how this article conveniently left the shooter's name out? For the record, he is Christopher Baga, age 35.

The last name is actually BRAGA.

16 posted on 03/15/2002 6:55:45 AM PST by jackbill
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To: scouse
"Another FBI agent, Christopher Braga, shot Schultz that day."

Oops!! Thanks for the correction.

From this article: Details unfold in FBI mix-up

17 posted on 03/15/2002 6:56:34 AM PST by Fred Mertz
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To: FormerLurker
It sounds like a 'clean shoot' is when somebody who is shot by the FBI and just happens to be innocent, doesn't die.

Is the FBI going to just shuffle this agent off to another FBI office?

18 posted on 03/15/2002 6:58:48 AM PST by Slyfox
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To: ctdonath2
This case is plainly a "dirty shoot" because the boy was told to get out of the car

It's more like it was "GET OUT OF THE F***ING CAR", being shouted by several JBTs at the top of their lungs.

It's also very possible that another agent was shouting "DON'T F***ING MOVE" to the kid, just to (intentionally) confuse the situation for the victim.

That way, if he didn't move they could shoot him for not "getting out of the f***ing car".

19 posted on 03/15/2002 7:00:59 AM PST by Mulder
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To: MyPetMonkey
"There's no middle ground in this thing. You're either with us or against us."

No, that's "you're either with us or with the terrorists". Can't these FBI guys get anything right?

In this case seems it should be you're either with us terrorists or against us.......this is a despicable show of unprofessional conduct IMO and those guys should be on the beach..obviously they didn't think a former FiBEEE would rat them off...do you think they could be unbiased in a criminal investigation against a suspect if they are biased for one of their own???curtain of secrecy seems to prevail...

20 posted on 03/15/2002 7:02:12 AM PST by rolling_stone
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To: Mulder
When will GW or Congress order a revamp of the FBI?

Since the days of clinton, the FBI has been out of control.

21 posted on 03/15/2002 7:23:01 AM PST by antidemocommie
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To: Mulder
We need a picture of the actual bank robber, Michael J. Blottenberger Jr. It wouldn't surprise me if the Eagle Scout doesn't resemble the criminal.
22 posted on 03/15/2002 7:25:03 AM PST by ao98
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To: Mulder
Reposting my comment from this thread...

For review purposes, let's go over the list of crimes, mistakes, poor condict, and hubris in this small event. I know I'm being "reckless" in doing so, but I still think it's important.

Those who are properly trained in the use of firearms do not rest their finger on the trigger, nor do they allow the barrel to point in any direction that might be unsafe. Those who refuse treatment suspects (and some reports mention gloating about it) deserve to lose their job entirely.

The three major points here:
1. The laws of the land should apply to all citizens equally. If any of us had mishandled a firearm during a gunshow or at home (or any acceptable reason to have a weapon drawn, just like when a pursued perp has shown a weapon)... and someone got shot in the face... then we would be in jail, facing fines, and would certainly be fired if handling of the firearm was a part of our job (like a salesman or instructor).

2. The FBI needs to stop covering their agents' crimes. They serve the public. The FBI should be open and honest when mistakes happen, and should demote, prosecute and fire agents when merited.

3. The FBI needs to ensure that those who need medical attention get it as soon as possible, whether they are suspects or not. The teacher at Columbine died and the kid in this story could have died because they are not willing to perform the same tasks that local officers and firemen do every single day: go into an area to try to save a life, even if an element of risk exists. (I'll refrain from using the WTC as the basis of comparison, again to be as accomodating as possible in my arguments.)

Rather than serve the public with truth, honor, and self-improvement, the federal agencies (as well as Congress) prefer to lie, obfuscate, 'CYA', and show their disdain for the opinions and welfare of the public. The icing on the cake: the annual demand for more of our hard-earned dollars so they can 'do more'. Boys, we ain't gonna put up with it much longer.

23 posted on 03/15/2002 7:26:15 AM PST by Teacher317
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To: Mulder; Travis McGee; Lurker; squantos; noumenon ; Abundy; one_particular_harbour
Sam Wichner, firearms instructor for the Baltimore office, and from Jim Ellis, a supervisor in the Calverton office, which reports to the Baltimore field office.

Clearly we have two more agents who need to be off the Federal Payroll and possibly facing obstruction of justice charges. I will not at this time review all the things apparently bad with this shooting but suffice to say Christopher Braga needs to be facing a criminal court date based upon what has been admitted by the FBI already.

Hodgson said that Wichner warned him that he would "end up looking pretty silly" once the shooting was ruled justified. In the call from Ellis, Hodgson said, he was told that he would be blocked from social interaction with his former FBI colleagues and friends if he worked on this case. Hodgson said it was Ellis who warned, "There's no middle ground on this thing. You're either with us or against us."

Now we have two more names of rogue agents. They are rogue agents because they are seeking to intimidate citizebs, in this case a former FBI agent. If they will do that to a former agent with presumably many contacts within the agency what will they do to a citizen who has no such contacts? These armed federal agents have clearly adopted a truth be damned us versus them attitude and anyone who is not one of their cronies with the FBI is one of them. They have crossed the line that separates law enforcement from a thug squad exemplified by such organizations as the Gestapo and Stasi.

For those recording the names of enemies of our Constitution I would suggest that these two be added to the list. Remember they turn on one of their own merely for seeking the truth. If it were a "clean shoot" why would they need to discourage any probe into the matter? If it were a "clean shoot" they should be willing to help anyone probing into the matter.

The FBI is supposed to be are top of the line Law Enforcement agency yet they are doing their best to imitate a Third world secret police operation at least in this case. The fact that these agents would even consider making such threats to a former agent means that their supervisors are at best incompetent hacks. If the FBI does not start cleaning up its house the results for this nation are cataclysimic.

One of the facts of life to consider is that when the general populace faces a totally corrupt state wher ethere is no relif under all the other laws rule .308 is the next step. These agents may think that it will not apply to them but like everyone else they shop, they have their hobbies they park in parking lots. rule .308 is absolute and can be applied anywhereand at any time. They seem to be wanting to force the issue.

Stay well - stay safe - stay armed - Yorktown

24 posted on 03/15/2002 7:32:06 AM PST by harpseal
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To: Mulder
Mulder....

I would hope that Bush would be "furious" about this sad affair, however, I doubt it is of any concern to him. I have seen nor heard of anything from Ashcroft either. Now is the time to charge the man with manslaughter, let the chips fall where they may. Of course this will never happen.

25 posted on 03/15/2002 7:35:02 AM PST by cynicom
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To: Mulder, Travis McGee, Squantos, harpseal
This happened in the back yard of about 20,000 Washington insiders. Pasadena might be a blue collar bedroom community halfway between Baltimore and Annapolis, but it's surrounded with enough million dollar waterfront properties that you have more than just a couple of highly placed civil servants and national media wheels living in the area thinking that this could have been their kid shot in the face.

My prediction stands. This ain't goin' the way of most FBI JBT shoots. Somebody's gonna get permanently sidelined, if not prosecuted to the fullest extent.

26 posted on 03/15/2002 7:36:30 AM PST by Harrison Bergeron
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To: rmvh
Could you then please explain the " Clean Shoot" at the Little Bohemia Lodge where the feebs machinegunned innocent diners while Dillinger escaped out the back window ?
27 posted on 03/15/2002 7:39:30 AM PST by RocketWolf
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To: cynicom
"I would hope that Bush would be "furious" about this sad affair..."

The usual quote from his press secretary is "He was plenty hot." Then we hear nothing more, as in the Arab SS American Airline passenger debacle and more recently the INS approval of Mohammed Atta's student visa.

28 posted on 03/15/2002 7:40:58 AM PST by Harrison Bergeron
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To: Mulder; ctdonath2
I've done enough felony stops without shooting anyone to know that this case is a bad shoot because the agents failed to follow proper procedure for conducting a felony stop.

Done properly, the agent would have been behind cover and ordered the suspect out of the vehicle step-by-step. Done properly, the agents would never have been in a position to be worried about a furtive movement placing him or her in fear.

The shoot is bad because the agent ran up to the vehicle and didn't follow proper procedures.

29 posted on 03/15/2002 7:42:03 AM PST by Abundy
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To: harpseal
They are definately due for retirement (not killing, just get them out of the FBI)

They think just because the kid made a sudden move they can shoot him. What they fail to realize is that they put themselves into a position where his sudden move became threatening. If they had followed procedures they would not have felt threatened and the kid would be alive today.

30 posted on 03/15/2002 7:44:35 AM PST by Abundy
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To: Harrison Bergeron
This happened in the back yard of about 20,000 Washington insiders.... This ain't goin' the way of most FBI JBT shoots. Somebody's gonna get permanently sidelined, if not prosecuted to the fullest extent.

The Eagle Scout wasn't part of the "elite ruling class" which includes the 20,000 Washington insiders you mention.

So no one "inside the beltway" gives a damn about him or the abuse of power on the part of the FBI. They are too busy increasing the FBI's budget and attempting to take away our Rights to notice this case.

31 posted on 03/15/2002 7:45:16 AM PST by Mulder
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To: cynicom
Mulder.... I would hope that Bush would be "furious" about this sad affair, however, I doubt it is of any concern to him.

Hi cynicom... good to "see" you.

I think you are probably correct. As someone who supported Bush and voted for him, I'm pretty much convinced that Bush only cares about Bush, and not the Bill of Rights.

He is doing nothing to correct the abuses of the Clinton administration and is expanding, not contracting, the police state.

32 posted on 03/15/2002 7:48:17 AM PST by Mulder
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To: Teacher317
Rather than serve the public with truth, honor, and self-improvement, the federal agencies (as well as Congress) prefer to lie, obfuscate, 'CYA', and show their disdain for the opinions and welfare of the public. The icing on the cake: the annual demand for more of our hard-earned dollars so they can 'do more'. Boys, we ain't gonna put up with it much longer.

The FBI corruption has been going on for a long time. Remember when Clinton wanted to dump the Secret Service and use the FBI for his personal protection?

The only way it can get cleaned up, IMHO, is for a President to be committed to fixing it (Bush is apparently not interested). It would do a lot of good to bring in an "outsider" to run the bureau. A police chief (one who worked his way up, not a political hack) from a small to medium sized department would be a better choice than this Mueller selection.

33 posted on 03/15/2002 7:53:08 AM PST by Mulder
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To: Mulder
bttt
34 posted on 03/15/2002 7:54:14 AM PST by SuperLuminal
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To: harpseal
One of the facts of life to consider is that when the general populace faces a totally corrupt state wher ethere is no relif under all the other laws rule .308 is the next step. These agents may think that it will not apply to them but like everyone else they shop, they have their hobbies they park in parking lots. rule .308 is absolute and can be applied anywhereand at any time. They seem to be wanting to force the issue.

Very well stated. They seem to be pushing the issue, between this and the Puckett situation.

Hopefully enough people still support the Bill of Rights to do what needs to be done when the time comes.

35 posted on 03/15/2002 7:56:23 AM PST by Mulder
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To: Mulder
It won't take all 20,000 Washington insiders to ruin the futures of these scumbag erstwhile secret police. It will only take one hero among them. We may never learn his name, but he (or she) might live spitting distance from the shooting victim, and work two offices down from a cabinet secretary or SCJ.
36 posted on 03/15/2002 7:57:14 AM PST by Harrison Bergeron
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To: Mulder
Mulder....

A few years ago, I had an open and shut case against a politician. After much time, effort and money, I lost. Two years later, I found out why. The lead FBI agent had been sleeping with the pols secretary.

During my professional career with the Federal government, I learned early on to NOT COOPERATE, with any agency that had the power of arrest. Most, not all, are arrogant to the exttreme and have a common view, them against the citizens.

37 posted on 03/15/2002 8:07:55 AM PST by cynicom
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To: MyPetMonkey
If the FBI can't shoot innocent civilians then the terrorists win.
38 posted on 03/15/2002 8:12:32 AM PST by Jefferson1776
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Federal officers, failing to use felony stop proceedures utilized by most all law-enforcement, shot an unarmed, innocent, eagle scout in the face at point blank range with an assault weapon, and argue that this was a 'clean shoot' and reply to investigations into the matter with "There's no middle ground in this thing. You're either with us or against us."

What country is this?

And if this is representative of the mindset of FLEAs, they had damn well better be ready for the 'Unintended Consequences' ...

39 posted on 03/15/2002 8:15:01 AM PST by spodefly
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To: Mulder
"There's no middle ground in this thing. You're either with us or against us."

Well, that's fair enough

Just hope all the FBI supporters out there understand who made this rule

I know EXACTLY where I stand and this arrogant over-armed a$$hole is not on my side of the fence.

40 posted on 03/15/2002 8:15:19 AM PST by Lloyd227
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To: Harrison Bergeron
Thanks for the info. I want FiBi's held to the same f accountability I would if I'd had an AD or acted irresponsibly during the conduct of my duties. When I worked as a deputy sheriff I was subject to firing or even possible prosecution for even the smallest of errors when it came to alledged "accidents"..........

If this agent screwed up and is not man enough to step up and take his medicine for such then he in no way qualifies to enforce laws upon others.............

Stay Safe !

41 posted on 03/15/2002 8:38:37 AM PST by Squantos
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To: Abundy
They are definately due for retirement (not killing, just get them out of the FBI)

Actually I am not thrilled that by retiring from the civil service they will continue to collect tax dollars. However, it has yet to be shown that they will be removed from their jobs. The Braga needs to face criminal charges. If he was not the one who decided to forego Felony stop procedures and protocols then the agent who made that decision should also face trial. In short heads should roll administratively at the minimum.

The bigger problem is the us versus them attitude where the them is anyone not a part of the FBI. When I was discussing rule .308 I was discussing the logical consequence of their actions and attitude. These logical consequences could be prevented by prompt and severe mangerial action within the FBI and/or by action from the criminal justice system. however, if this attitude and the actions that allegedly flowed from this attitude are not abated and promptly then the consequences will happen as surely as the tide rises and falls.

In this particular case there is a litany of misbehavior by FBI agents. It starts with questionable behavior in even stopping the car they stopped. It continues with failure to use felony stop procedures. It continues with allegations that the agents denied prompt medical assistance to the injured man. It is exacerbated by the celebration (agin alleged not admitted yet) after the shoot. Now we are seeing other agents attempting to intimidate an independant investigator who is himself a former FBI agent. What is next a midnight raid and arrest of the yound woman who was also in the car? Maybe she will just disappear that would be a very helpful coincidence wouldn't it. Maybe those who critique the FBI procedures in this case need some friendly persuasion from some of the other agents of this office?

They have started down this road and what I pointed out is where this road leads. The consequences I described are but some of the many. No, I was not calling for any physical harm to anyone. I was merely pointing out what we may expect if things are not changed significantly and soon. The next move is up to the FBI I am hoping they will not just sweep the board off the table.

Stay well - Stay saf e- Stay armed - Yorktown

42 posted on 03/15/2002 8:52:11 AM PST by harpseal
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To: Harrison Bergeron
This happened in the back yard of about 20,000 Washington insiders. Pasadena might be a blue collar bedroom community halfway between Baltimore and Annapolis, but it's surrounded with enough million dollar waterfront properties that you have more than just a couple of highly placed civil servants and national media wheels living in the area thinking that this could have been their kid shot in the face.

Perhaps this opens up some other lines of inquiry for an investigation? I hesitated before making this comment as I have no direct evidence of anything other than what has been openly stated in the press. Maybe the proximity of movers and shakers will have an effect on the investigation that remains to be seen. So far one must say it is not yet evident.

My prediction stands. This ain't goin' the way of most FBI JBT shoots. Somebody's gonna get permanently sidelined, if not prosecuted to the fullest extent.Clearly from what has been made public so far at least several agents need to find other employment and there is a need for a criminal prosecution.

Stay well - stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

43 posted on 03/15/2002 9:00:45 AM PST by harpseal
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To: harpseal
One noteworthy point is that the PI was not intimidated. He's naming names - FBI agent names - and to the press no less. This is an indication that there's some serious juice behind his investigation.
44 posted on 03/15/2002 9:07:31 AM PST by Harrison Bergeron
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To: harpseal
harp...

The air-tight "explanation" of this affair is in place. That was done before they released the perps name.

We may all rest assured that the "justification" for the shooting will entail the victim and or his friend as having said or done something, whereby the shooter feared for his life. All of this CYA is set in concrete and ALL of the perps present will spout the same line.

45 posted on 03/15/2002 9:09:47 AM PST by cynicom
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To: Harrison Bergeron
If the PI's description is accurate it sounds like the FBI is pretty scared about this one.

If it was a "good shooting" as they call it, there would be no reason to try to intimidate anyone. They would simply put the facts out for everyone to see.

That they are threatening investigators makes me think they know they are in trouble.

46 posted on 03/15/2002 9:21:59 AM PST by yarddog
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To: harpseal
Good post, anything I say will prove I'm one of those against us sorts that these irresponsible idiots fear. That office used to be held in high esteem by most Americans, now I fear and suspect it as I do any enemy of the American way of life. If I were an agent in that outfit such unprofessional hotdogs who do or cover for others would be let alone to wither on the vine per se.....peer pressure IMHO is all that good agents have these days to rid themselves of these clintonista regime of thinkers. Problem is that SAC's are now high enough in the food chain of that outfit to ensure others like them survive regardless of law, or internal investigations......

Total reorganization or development of an entire new unit and the eventual disbanding of the FiBi's is all that will work IMHO. But then this is America and sheeple will elect sadly more bubbafucco's and any good unit can only really police itself so much...........

A real pisser indeed, Stay Safe !

47 posted on 03/15/2002 9:36:24 AM PST by Squantos
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To: Mulder

RULE 308!


48 posted on 03/15/2002 9:36:44 AM PST by Travis McGee
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To: harpseal

"You're either with us, or with the peasants."

ES IST VERBOTEN, STAAT SEKURITAT ZU KRITISIERON!


49 posted on 03/15/2002 9:39:45 AM PST by Travis McGee
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To: Travis McGee
Squeeze, Baby, Squeeze

A big bump for "No Controlling Legal Authority".

50 posted on 03/15/2002 9:54:46 AM PST by meadsjn
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