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FBI agents said to oppose inquiry (shooting of Eagle Scout in Maryland)
Baltimore Sun ^ | March 15, 2002 | Gail Gibson

Posted on 03/15/2002 6:22:07 AM PST by Mulder

Edited on 09/03/2002 4:50:06 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

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To: Mulder
BTTT
101 posted on 03/15/2002 5:56:10 PM PST by Unicorn
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To: sport
That's infuriating. It's better for me and my family that I wasn't there to see it. I'm amazed that the local cops didn't make a move on the feebs since they were supposed to have been on the scene shortly after the shooting. Maybe the local cops don't care much about the people they are supposed to protect and serve.
102 posted on 03/15/2002 5:59:09 PM PST by Twodees
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To: Mulder
"There's no middle ground in this thing. You're either with us or against us."

OK you arrogant bastards, you asked for it. I'm against.

103 posted on 03/15/2002 6:05:36 PM PST by wcbtinman
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To: wcbtinman
A big bump for "More Stupid FBI Tricks".
104 posted on 03/15/2002 6:09:30 PM PST by Palladin
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To: Twodees
Maybe the local cops don't care much about the people they are supposed to protect and serve.

You hit the nail squarely on the head.

The local agencies have sold their souls to the devil [federal government] in the name of federal grants.

And as history has shown, all who sell their birth rights [and souls] do so very cheaply [a bowl of soup, 30 pieces of silver....]

105 posted on 03/15/2002 6:12:12 PM PST by sport
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To: Mulder
My Uncle Bob was a 30 year veteran of a police force in suburban Cleveland. He was best man at my wedding 40 years ago. He served in an era when MOST cops embodied the now frequently hollow motto emblazoned on patrol cars all over this country: “TO PROTECT AND SERVE.”

The last years of his career were spent as the Chief Juvenile Detective in his department. When he died, a number of the young men whose lives he’d touched years before came forward to tell how his timely and sometimes tough-love intervention turned them around.

I know that many officers STILL try to live that creed today. I also know that there are officers out there who, despite the rulings by the Supremes that they have no obligation to specific, individual citizens, would stand between one of us and a bullet – and have.

My sister is married to a good guy – who was also a good cop.

And I STILL vividly recall a business trip and having a flat tire. I pulled onto the narrow shoulder and was opening the trunk when I spied a Georgia State Trooper’s car cross the median, hit the flashers and pull in some distance behind me and a bit closer to the road, shielding me and my car from the 70 MPH traffic. SHE got out and asked if I needed any help. I told her I could probably handle it. She said she’d keep her unit there until I got done.

THEN she spotted my cane and saw that I was partially disabled. Before I could object, she was in the trunk, had wrestled the spare to the ground and was jacking up the car, all the while asking me to remain safely near the guard rail. About that time, two county deputies stopped and pitched in. The lady trooper cut her hand fooling with the jack and soiled her freshly pressed uniform wrestling the dirty flat back into the trunk. They couldn’t have been nicer! I took their names and wrote highly complimentary letters to their superiors – all of whom promptly acknowledged them and thanked me for the kind words.

These officers – like my uncle – grasped the significance of “To Protect and Serve.”

I also recognize that the cops – like Gort in “The Day The Earth Stood Still” -- are simply the muscle (the “enforcement”) behind the legislative and statutory “law” enacted by society as a whole. That is, after all, why it’s called “LAW ENFORCEMENT.” And although it could be argued that this society may be morphing into the homonym for “whole” as you read this, these laws are enacted by our alleged “representatives” meeting in generally safe, quiet and opulent chambers far from the increasingly mean streets where the cops ply their trade. If the cops have too many intrusive and abusive laws to enforce, check the nearest mirror for a likeness of the responsible party.

And if the cops ARE abusive to the general citizenry, why aren’t HUNDREDS or THOUSANDS of us RAISING UNHOLY HELL at each and every meeting of the responsible governing body? French political philosopher Joseph D'Maistre declared that "Every people gets the government they deserve."

Have we really become the “nation of sheep” an author foresaw many years ago? If so, we have little right to object to the shearing. Or the coming slaughter and culling of the flock. And my guess is that the culling will begin with the most troublesome and noisiest sheep. And guess who THAT is?

An old friend is a ranking officer with a large police department. I would rate his love of our freedoms and the Constitution against anyone here at FR. A few years ago, he told me that IF the order to begin some sort of weapons round-up among the general citizenry ever came down from “on high,” we would quickly know about it from the reports of disturbances and gunfire from the neighborhood cop shop: Fully HALF the officers in his department are Second Amendment guys. He and they would be the first to resist such an order – physically if necessary. What should scare us all is the shift in our demographics and the continuing leftist indoctrination by the government schools, making it impossible to know how much longer that ratio – and sentiment – will hold.

Having said that, I also recognize that EVERY large barrel contains some bad apples -- and SOME cops are “cowboys.” Some are simply power driven megalomaniacs who would have dropped on the OTHER side of the law had their lives drifted a degree or two off the course they did take.

I believe this to be especially true of far too many federal law enforcement types who have allowed their egos and hubris to become as bloated as the bureaucratic federal behemoth they serve. Their mandate is no longer to “…protect and serve” the citizens who pay their salaries: It is to crush any meaningful resistance to a growing body of procedures, regulations and policies – too frequently enforced under severely tortured interpretations of the underlying legislative enactments (if any) – and often put in place by executive fiat. The massively abused SEIZURE statutes – laws the author of which now seeks to RESCIND! -- spring to mind.

And one cannot but help to wonder how the clear criminality of the Clintons – and their subsequent avoidance of any penalty – has played into the problem. There now seems to be a bright line between the easy, highly flexible, slap-on-the-wrist law for the rich and powerful and the rigidly enforced law against even the tiniest victimless “crimes” committed by those of us further down the food chain. Does anyone in his right mind believe THAT will NOT engender added disrespect for ALL law?

Could those things be a large part of the problem in some of the highly disturbing – and DEADLY (on BOTH sides) – confrontations we have witnessed over the past decade or so? Gordon Kahl, Ruby Ridge, OK City, Waco, Beck… This list WILL lengthen and we’d all better pray that WE will be spared.

Roman historian Tacitus warned that one could tell the level of corruption in a society by the NUMBER of its laws. Anyone doubt the level of corruption here?

Am I the only one who thinks we’re long overdue a serious review of the NUMBERS of laws under which we are now forced to exist – and which are increasingly used not to assure our safety or well-being, but to COMMAND AND CONTROL us and KEEP US IN LINE.

Only the most tyrannical and power-crazed members of law enforcement could possibly object to that.

The modern counterparts of my Uncle Bob would not object.

It is THEY, after all, who are most likely to catch that bullet – probably fired by someone who has symbolically screamed to himself “I’M MAD AS HELL AND I’M NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANY MORE” -- referred to earlier when they sally forth to serve that flimsy warrant or make that bogus arrest.

106 posted on 03/15/2002 6:46:44 PM PST by Dick Bachert
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To: Twodees, Teacher317
According to the initial news article the stop was made at about 6 p.m. and then in a later article we get the following timeline for the medical response:

According to county 911 dispatch records, the Fire Department was called to respond to the shooting at 6:12 p.m., and the first units arrived by 6:15 p.m. Paramedics arrived two minutes later.

By 6:22 p.m., paramedics had finished their assessment and called for a helicopter to transport Schultz to the shock trauma center.

The paramedics were en route to the trauma unit by 6:53, according to the records.

I kinda of doubt the accuracy of the claim of a 40 to 60 minute delay in getting first medical attention.

107 posted on 03/15/2002 7:02:16 PM PST by Database
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To: Mulder
""There's no middle ground in this thing. You're either with us or against us." "

Yeah, most of us know that. How does it feel to be the declared enemy of the FBI, folks?

108 posted on 03/15/2002 7:04:50 PM PST by Don Myers
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To: Slyfox
"It sounds like a 'clean shoot' is when somebody who is shot by the FBI and just happens to be innocent, doesn't die."

A clean shoot seems to be a shooting that is properly covered up.

109 posted on 03/15/2002 7:06:50 PM PST by Don Myers
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To: Mulder
he was told by one of the agents: "There's no middle ground in this thing. You're either with us or against us."

Someone needs to tell the agent, and fast, that US in the president's context means AMERICANS, and THEM means TERRORISTS and those who support or harbor them. The agent is a loose cannon rolling around deck waiting to explode.

110 posted on 03/15/2002 7:07:01 PM PST by GretchenEE
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To: sport
Yep, selling out cheaply will cost them dearly, too. When it gets to the point that local police start to need armored personnel carriers and M-4s, they won't be police anymore and won't have the choice of standing up against the feds anymore. The feds will be their masters because they didn't put them in their places when this was happening.
111 posted on 03/15/2002 7:07:45 PM PST by Twodees
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To: ao98
"It wouldn't surprise me if the Eagle Scout doesn't resemble the criminal."

Even if so, what is your point? I would hazard a guess that many people in this country resemble you. Does that mean that some yahoo with a badge can legally shoot you if someone who resembles you commits a crime?

112 posted on 03/15/2002 7:08:55 PM PST by Don Myers
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To: Don Myers
A clean shoot seems to be a shooting that is properly covered up.

You are probably right. That agent shot an innocent Eagle Scout.
He ought to pay for his action with more than just being given a desk job in another state.

113 posted on 03/15/2002 7:12:40 PM PST by Slyfox
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To: Slyfox
"He ought to pay for his action with more than just being given a desk job in another state."

The shooting should be investigated and the same punishment given to him as would be appropriate for a civilian. The ones who have the power need to be held to the same standard, even a higher standard, as the common man on the street.

114 posted on 03/15/2002 7:14:31 PM PST by Don Myers
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Comment #115 Removed by Moderator

To: Database
Thanks, Database. If the timeline is correct I can see how it might be misconstrued if one saw the time of the stop and the time of the paramedics being listed as being enroute to the hospital with the victim. 6:00pm for the stop and 6:53 for the paramedic's status of being enroute to the trauma unit could have been misunderstood as being the time when the paramedics were enroute to the scene of the shooting.

Sometimes we skim an article instead of reading it carefully and get things mixed up somewhat.

116 posted on 03/15/2002 7:16:51 PM PST by Twodees
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To: ChareltonHest
"Considering what type of people the FBI are, it feals quite pro-America, pro-freedom, and proud. "

The Federal Agencies are becoming something that you find in totalitarian countries, aren't they?

117 posted on 03/15/2002 7:23:24 PM PST by Don Myers
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To: Dick Bachert
BIG BUMP!
118 posted on 03/15/2002 7:26:47 PM PST by mercy
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Comment #119 Removed by Moderator

To: GretchenEE
Very troubling. Thanks for the heads up!
120 posted on 03/15/2002 7:32:38 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: ChareltonHest
They may have done some good, but they have also covered for their paid killers like Ron Huiruiche (spelling). What responsible agency does that?
121 posted on 03/15/2002 7:33:35 PM PST by Don Myers
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To: Twodees
The accusation of the delay was made by the girl who was with Schultz. Note that the time line doesn't say when the shooting itself happened. A glaring omission.

Rabid dogs.

122 posted on 03/15/2002 7:34:01 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck
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To: ChareltonHest
all they do is run around like a biker gang ruining people's lives

An insult to biker gangs everywhere <GRIN>

123 posted on 03/15/2002 7:34:47 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck
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To: Twodees
I think the source of the claim was the Father of the girl in the car. He apparently made statements on a radio program that his daughter had begged the FBI officers through this long delay during which the young man lay handcuffed on the ground.

I don't know if, during the medical attention at the scene, the man remained handcuffed or what. But I can imagine that it would seem like forever if you are laying there watching your loved one like that regardless of how long the delay actually was.

124 posted on 03/15/2002 7:35:00 PM PST by Database
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To: ChareltonHest
I forgot to add in my last post that all Federal Agencies are routinely becoming more like special-forces trained ninjas than police officers. More and more of these Federal Agencies are even getting their own swat teams. The Bureau of Land Management even has swat teams now, I understand.
125 posted on 03/15/2002 7:36:20 PM PST by Don Myers
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Comment #126 Removed by Moderator

Comment #127 Removed by Moderator

To: Mulder
Dudley F.B. "Butch" Hodgson, a former FBI agent who has been retained by the shooting victim's lawyers, said he was told by one of the agents: "There's no middle ground in this thing. You're either with us or against us."

That sounds to me like a threat uttered with intent to obstruct justice.

128 posted on 03/15/2002 7:48:19 PM PST by cynwoody
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Comment #129 Removed by Moderator

To: ChareltonHest
Ok, I looked at the photos. What are they for?
130 posted on 03/15/2002 7:56:59 PM PST by Don Myers
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To: cynwoody
"That sounds to me like a threat uttered with intent to obstruct justice."

The difference is, they can get away with it.

131 posted on 03/15/2002 7:57:43 PM PST by Don Myers
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To: Mulder
They say the office opinion on this case is, 'It's a good shooting . . .

Christopher Baga's own personal handcart to Hell is accelerating towards its destination. . .

Hey Man, Nice Shot

132 posted on 03/15/2002 8:00:37 PM PST by BraveMan
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To: RocketWolf
Could you then please explain the " Clean Shoot" at the Little Bohemia Lodge where the feebs machinegunned innocent diners while Dillinger escaped out the back window ?

Will Rogers summed up that episode thus:

Well, they had Dillinger surrounded and was all ready to shoot him when he come, but another bunch of folks come out ahead, so they just shot them instead.
I once heard former Special Agent G. Gordon Liddy give a talk in which he recounted his extensive FBI training back in the fifties.  Agents needed to do the right thing automatically under pressure.  They spent a lot of time on the range shooting (or not shooting, as appropriate) popup targets. The Number One Rule was "Don't embarrass the bureau!". And just about the most bureau-embarrassing thing you could do was to drill a "citizen".
133 posted on 03/15/2002 8:12:11 PM PST by cynwoody
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To: cynwoody
A little info on this assassin:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/01/25/busdriver.hearing/

http://tryingforsense.blogspot.com/
UPDATE:
The shooter is FBI Special Agent Christopher Braga. Agent Braga is on paid administrative leave, at his request, since the shooting March 1 of Joseph C. Schultz. Note: paid admin leave, not suspension.

http://www.iaati.org/3m_awards_static.asp
Special Agent Christopher R. Braga

Seems like Christopher R. Bragga, 35, father of 3, is a shoe in for entry into the FBI Hall of Shame

134 posted on 03/15/2002 8:26:10 PM PST by gwynapnudd
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To: Mulder
These FBI dudes are slimey. Sounds like something close to obstruction of justice.
135 posted on 03/15/2002 8:54:07 PM PST by savedbygrace
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Comment #136 Removed by Moderator

To: Twodees
"The "serious juice" behind his investigation could very well just be his own personal integrity and the trademark courage of an innocent man.

Could be. But two high powered pieces in the Baltimore press today, one being by a celebrity ex-crime reporter and author of the landmark Homicide series, tells me that there's an offense play in the works that the FBI wasn't ready for - especially with the sudden flurry of names thrown out to the public. Oh yeah, there's a little bit of a panic right now. Just too bad it came out on a Friday and not a Monday.

137 posted on 03/15/2002 9:37:47 PM PST by Harrison Bergeron
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To: harpseal
All the Staat Sekuritat (FBI) needs to do to shut witnesses up is follow them around in SUVs, and bump into them on sidewalks and so on. Very, very effective, and if they complain, they will be painted as a paranoid.
138 posted on 03/15/2002 9:41:05 PM PST by Travis McGee
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To: meia
check your history. the shooting of Randy Weavers wife was not done by FBI agents. Put coin in slot and try again.
139 posted on 03/15/2002 9:44:53 PM PST by antidemocommie
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To: unamused
After the trouble making "against us" P.I. is found in his car at the bottom of a lake with a gunshot wound to the temple, it will be revealed that he was taking medicationS for depression.

ES IST VERBOTEN, STAAT SEKURITAT ZU KRITISIERON!

140 posted on 03/15/2002 9:46:15 PM PST by Travis McGee
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To: all
I can't wait to see the FBI video recreation of this incident like they did with the Florida fiasco...ha what a bunch of crap...
141 posted on 03/15/2002 9:49:37 PM PST by rolling_stone
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To: Database
We as state citizens, should in turn pressure state officials to do this every time, like clockwork.

That would be nice, but unfortunately state and local governments have been quite effectively coopted by the chase for the almighty "federal" dollar, and willingly dance to the federal tune.

Es ist verboten, Staat Sekuritat zu kritisieron!

142 posted on 03/15/2002 9:49:52 PM PST by Travis McGee
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To: Travis McGee
And it will be admitted that he had to reload the gun twice while he was shooting himself in the head...
143 posted on 03/15/2002 9:53:30 PM PST by unamused
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To: GretchenEE
"You are either with State Security, or with the peasants."
144 posted on 03/15/2002 9:54:09 PM PST by Travis McGee
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To: antidemocommie
check your history. the shooting of Randy Weavers wife was not done by FBI agents. Put coin in slot and try again.

Are you trying for moron of the month, throwing around insults when YOU are wrong?

/1/ The original Weaver case was made by the BATF, (the 1/4" short shotgun).

/2/ The US Marshals, surveilling the Weaver property, shot young Sammy Weaver in the back killing him.

/3/ The FBI HRT sniper Lon Horiuchi shot Vicki Weaver through the head while she held her infant.

Next time you try insulting someone on FR, do a minute's worth of fact checking first, so that you don't come off sounding like a total cretin.

145 posted on 03/15/2002 10:07:44 PM PST by Travis McGee
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To: unamused
The wound will be to his right temple: later it will be found out that he was a southpaw.
146 posted on 03/15/2002 10:09:44 PM PST by Travis McGee
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To: Travis McGee
...and they will ignore the fact that he had to reload twice....
147 posted on 03/15/2002 10:12:13 PM PST by unamused
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To: zog
What ever is your purpose in advocating the mistreatment of the shooter's wife and kids? Do you really think they did anything to cause or cover up this tragedy?

It's crap-talk like this that makes things unnecessarily personal and can lead to problems for this forum and possibly some of its members at the hands of JBTs and liberal/commie scum. We all know by now that this forum is monitored by trolls with and without badges....

148 posted on 03/15/2002 10:13:09 PM PST by tracer
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Comment #149 Removed by Moderator

Comment #150 Removed by Moderator


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