The cross: A symbol, but of what?

AP via Providence Journal ^ | 3/16/02 | RICHARD N. OSTLING

[the_doc]

Fine. But you tell me where idolatry starts and stops--and where the proper uses of props starts and stops.

It ain't easy to answer that one, I'm afraid. (That's the concerns which Reformed Protestants have. Some of us do very well without the props.)

[Wagonmaster]

Thank you.

[the_doc]

See also #77, offered as a potentially spooky warning by an ex-RC.

[4CJ]

You are more than welcome.

[lds23]

The Cross can also symbolize the Tree of Life. After the Fall, we were condemned to suffer and toil and die. Through his own suffering, Christ redeems God's original promise of eternal life to Man.

[Ward Smythe]

1. I came on this thread and corrected your faulty description of the Wesleyan-Armenian view of prevenient grace. The context of your paragraph implied that our position holds that prevenient grace neutralizes sin. That is not the case. I corrected your error as follows:

The Reformed tradition has a strong tendency to misinterpret God's grace. Wesleyan-Armenians do not believe that sin is "neutralized." We believe, in contrast to the Reformed/Calvinists, that God's grace is available to everyone, not just the "elect." There is a huge difference between that and saying that sin is "neutralized by universal prevenient grace."

2. I agreed with ShadowAce's recommendation that we migrate this discussion to the "current" thread, now located Here I will not maintain multiple threads regarding the same topic of discussion. If you can't handle that, enjoy your own company, you will not have mine. Further if you ping me back to this thread in the attempt to lure me into a conversation I will merely ping you back to this post.

3. You seem to have quickly forgotten that I have informed you on multiple occasions that you will never convince me of your faulty interpretation of 1 Corinthians 2:14. That said. I'll tell you the same again, but on the Other Thread

All of these verses will start making sense to you for the first time in your life if you will forsake your party spirit.

Again, you flatter yourself and your understanding. I have also told you on multiple occasions that I do not consider you to be scripturally accurate or spiritually superior. In fact you are not even worthy of my consideration because you continually assert that I must consider your position while you will give no consideration to my position because I am "wrong." Your posts are a waste of my time. I will simply laugh at anyone who tells me "we've got all the answers and you have to see it our way."

I'm laughing at the superior intellect
James Tiberius Kirk, The Wrath of Khan

See you on the Other Thread

[Busywhiskers]

"For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified."

1 Corinthians 2:2

These folks should quit playing church and go join the Rotary Club or something.

[Campion]

I would point out that Reformed believers would never fall into the trap of contempt which the three liberals in the article have displayed for the Cross of Christ.

And if they did, you'd say they weren't "Reformed believers" anymore, giving yourself a clever little "out" you didn't allow the rest of us in your little bashfest.

Incidentally, the PCUSA used to be a whole church full of "Reformed believers". Some of them are now into worshipping "Sophia" (who?) and others of them think abortion and homosexual perversion are just variant forms of Christian expression. But, since they aren't "Reformed believers" anymore, you don't have to apologize for them.

Incidentally, where I come from, Crossan is an apostate. Even identifying him as a "Roman Catholic" is sick. The guy outright denies the resurrection, among many other things. That he is still on faculty at DePaul just goes to prove that DePaul is not a Catholic school.

[sonserae]

The cross was not a symbol used by the early churches. The Messianic Seal of the early church has been found inscribed on urns. It features a menorah on the top. The bas of the menorah is an upside triangle that is part of the Star of David in the middle. The bottom triangle of the Star of David forms the tail of the fish. To read article, click here: Sacred Seal

[sonserae]

Here's another article about the Messianic Seal. click here

[Utah Girl]

See post 68. I think Grig says it the best. :)

[Mercat]

We hold the death of the Lord, deep in our hearts.

[patent]

Drawing a pension till he passes to his reward. Too bad he didn't write the book, then the Vatican could review it and force him to withdraw it. ;-)

patent

[Bigg Red]

Some of us do very well without the props

Maybe your attention span is greater. :') BTW, I am always puzzled by those who question our ways, as I have never heard a Catholic challenge a Protestant as to why he doesn't use a cross.

[Right_Wing_Mole_In_Seattle]

1 Corinthians 1 is the first thing that came to my mind too. The cross is only foolish to those who don't realize the seriousness of their sin.

[the_doc]

If I were to go to another thread, I would simply repost my #78. But I don't see much point in continuing the discussion.

I will simply laugh at anyone who tells me "we've got all the answers and you have to see it our way."

But Ward, we don't claim to have all the answers. On the other hand, we do dare to point out that you won't even address the important questions. In other words, you won't entertain our position. You have essentially admitted this in several communications.

We Calvinists are not stonewalling in the way you are. We have seen both sides in the controversy very clearly. The overwhelming majority of us are former Arminians.

[the_doc]

That he is still on faculty at DePaul just goes to prove that DePaul is not a Catholic school.

I'll agree with you on that. But I would dare to say that the RCC is derelict in her Scriptural duty. Crossan should not only be thrown off the DePaul faculty but excommunicated from the RCC.

The Bible is not vague about this.

[pankot]

We already have atheist ministers....

[Ward Smythe]

But Ward, we don't claim to have all the answers. On the other hand, we do dare to point out that you won't even address the important questions. In other words, you won't entertain our position. You have essentially admitted this in several communications.

To the contrary, I have been told by your compatriots - and made a great deal about it on another thread that you do indeed have "all the answers." AND, you have told me yourself that you do not need to consider my position.

I have also told you on multiple occasions that if I were not willing to consider your position I would not be here.

Post #86

[the_doc]

Some of my ex-RC friends have told me that the crosses and other objects which they formerly in church just made them feel religious.