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Flashpoint America: Surviving a Traffic Stop Confrontation with an Anti-Government Extremist
ADL ^ | Unknown | Mark Pitcavage

Posted on 03/26/2002 6:07:30 AM PST by Cultural Jihad

 

 A Militia Watchdog Law Enforcement Advisory

Flashpoint America: Surviving a Traffic Stop Confrontation with an Anti-Government Extremist

by Mark Pitcavage

It is late at night and the rain beats down on the windshield of your patrol car. A Chevy Blazer speeds by, dousing your vehicle with a spray of fine mist. As the wipers clear your view, you notice that something is strange about that Blazer. The rear license plate had a lot of funny writing on it. They were obviously not plates from your state, but they didn’t seem to be plates from any other state you’d ever seen before, either.

Who would make up their own plates? It seems a little odd. But you pull out into the road and accelerate to catch up to the Blazer. It’s hard to see the plates because of the rain, but they are clearly not legitimate plates. In fact, you can just barely make out the wording on them: "Sovereign Private Property...Immunity Declared at Law...Non-Commercial American." This is a little bit more exotic than a "Save our Lakes" specialty plate. You turn on your lights.

The Blazer ignores them, keeps going. Irritated, you turn on the siren. Finally, the vehicle in front of you pulls over to the side of the road. You get out of the patrol car, curse the rain, and walk up to the Blazer. The back of the vehicle is festooned with bumper stickers. "End Judicial Dictatorship." "FREEDOM wasn’t won with a REGISTERED GUN." "Sovereign Forever, New World Order--Never." You’ve never seen stickers like this before. Judicial dictatorship?

As you walk past the vehicle, you see a message in vinyl letters posted on one of the side windows: ''No One Is Bound to Obey an Unconstitutional Law and No Courts Are Bound To Enforce It, 16th Am Jur 2 Ed 256.'' You reach the driver-side door. The window rolls down part-way and an angry face greets you. It is attached to a middle-aged man, Caucasian, scraggly hair, dressed in work clothes.

"Could you roll down your window, sir?" you ask.

"Are you arresting me?" the driver asks belligerently.

‘Sir, could you please roll down your window?"

Instead of complying, the driver hands you a folded up sheet of paper. You pull out your flashlight to take a look at it, trying to protect it from the rain. It seems about as strange as the license plates and the bumper stickers.

"NOTICE TO ARRESTING OFFICER WITH MIRANDA WARNING," it reads. It identifies the driver as a "Civil Rights Investigator." It’s hard to read the fine print on the document, but it seems to be saying that you cannot arrest the driver without a warrant unless you immediately take him to a judge to determine if the arrest was lawful. It threatens to sue you "in your INDIVIDUAL capacity" if you improperly arrest him without a warrant. Near the bottom it states that if you ignore these warnings, "it will show bad faith on your part and prima facie evidence of your deliberate indifference to Constitutionally mandated rights."

You shine the flashlight on the driver. He is smiling at you.

What do you do?

rule

So, what DO you do? Come down hard on the driver? Get him out of the car? Call for back-up? Ask him for an explanation? Let him go? It’s easier to say what NOT to do. Don’t make a snap judgment. Because it may be the last judgment you make.

Police officers are taught that all sorts of nasty surprises can come in motor vehicles. Fugitives, drug runners, illegal aliens, belligerent drunks: these are just a few of the unpleasant possibilities that can occur at a traffic stop. Sometimes there are warning signs, sometimes there aren’t. But you’ve been trained to expect them, you have some idea how to deal with them.

But now there is a new sort of traffic stop confrontation. It occurs when you pull somebody over who happens to be an anti-government extremist. Actually, it isn’t all that new, as some veteran officers might recall. As early as the 1970s and 1980s there were right-wing extremists who claimed to be immune from most of our laws and regulations. Many of them identified themselves as belonging to or sympathizing with a group called "The Posse Comitatus." They claimed to have no drivers’ licenses or license plates because they refused to have "contracts" with the government. They claimed to have an absolute Constitutional and Biblical right to travel freely and unconditionally. They also claimed that there was no crime unless there was a victim--thus, for instance, speeding could not be a crime, nor could traveling without a license plate.

The Posse itself died out in the late 1980s, but the underlying philosophy--an anarchist philosophy designed to find ways to get out of obeying laws and regulations through novel and pseudo-legalistic reinterpretations of statutes and codes--lived on. What’s more, it got a big boost in the 1990s. Tragic events at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, in 1992 and Waco, Texas, in 1993, dismayed or horrified most Americans, but they enraged and infuriated the extremist fringe, which viewed those incidents not as accidents or examples of incompetence or even criminal negligence, but rather deliberate acts in a conspiracy to deprive Americans of their liberty, a shadowy, globalist conspiracy to institute a "New World Order." Laws such as the Brady Law and the Assault Weapons Manufacture Ban only seemed to confirm the existence of this conspiracy. By 1994 all sorts of new groups had begun to emerge, many calling themselves "militias" or "common law courts." Anti-government extremism reached a new high in the 1990s, as the terrorism in Oklahoma City in 1995 so clearly demonstrates.

Most--the vast majority--of right-wing, anti-government extremists are no Timothy McVeigh. And thankfully so. They have no more intention of blowing up a federal building than they do of flying to the moon. But there are other McVeighs out there. And there are others who may never plan to blow up a building, but under the right (or wrong) circumstances can be lethally dangerous. And there are many more who are simply so intransigent and so opposed to any form of authority that any confrontation with them is potentially dangerous. Traffic stops can be particularly so. Imagine yourself, for a moment, in the body of one of these anti-government activists. You’ve just been pulled over for speeding at the end of a long, grinding day. But you haven’t done anything wrong, you haven’t hurt anyone. And now here comes walking up to your car a highway patrol officer. You’ve put up with them taking taxes out of your paycheck. You acquiesced when the judge ordered wage garnishes for child support. You said okay when the city inspectors told you not to build your den without their permits. How much more should you take from them? How much more can you take? Maybe it’s about time you stood up for yourself, stood up for your rights. Doesn’t the Constitution apply to you, too? Isn’t it about time they respected you for a change?

You can see how easily a confrontational attitude can build in one of these extremists. The officer performing the traffic stop ceases to be a human being and becomes much more of a symbol: the symbol of all the perceived oppression and tyranny that the person in the car has had to put up with all of his life. The officer now represents virtually all of "Government." To make matters worse, the person in the vehicle is quite likely to be armed and may well be far better armed than the officer who has pulled them over. Thus if the driver decides to be confrontational, he can be very dangerous indeed.

How dangerous? The police officer may just be in for a hard time and a few curse words. In some cases, his or her life may actually be in danger. Traffic stop confrontations can be violent and they can be deadly. They are also relatively frequent. In fact, a 1997 study released by the Southern Poverty Law Center which looked at criminal incidents involving extremists from 1994-1996 revealed that five percent of all such incidents involved spontaneous confrontations with police, usually through traffic stops.

A few examples taken from the many available traffic stop confrontations with anti-government extremists (including "sovereign citizens," militiamen, white supremacists, and tax protesters) illustrate the potential dangers:

  • June 1994: White supremacist Robert Joos is charged with resisting arrest and carrying a concealed weapon following a traffic stop confrontation with Missouri State Highway Patrol officers.
  • July 1994: Steven Garrett Colbern is pulled over in a traffic stop in Upland, California, but resists arrest and has to be subdued by five officers. His car is found to contain an assault rifle, a silencer, and a part necessary to convert the rifle to full automatic file (he is later briefly thought to be the John Doe #2 sought after in the Oklahoma City bombing investigation).
  • October 1994: A routine traffic stop of three Michigan militia activists near Fowlerville, Michigan, uncovers loaded three semi-automatic rifles, four other guns, armor-piercing ammunition, and night vision goggles. The militiamen are arrested but never show up in court for their trial (later, one of the fugitives allegedly murders another one).
  • Early 1995: Tim Hampton is charged with assaulting a police officer near Dallas, Texas, over an incident that occurred at a traffic stop.
  • May 1995: James Boran is pulled over because of outstanding traffic warrants in Massachusetts. Boran refuses to exit his van and instead drives away. After his path is blocked, he continues his escape on foot, barricading himself in his apartment. After he finally surrenders, police find bombmaking materials and militia manuals.
  • June 1995: Michael Hill, a militia and common law court activist in Ohio, is shot and killed by a Frazeysburg, OH, police officer after pulling a gun on the officer during a traffic stop.
  • October 1995: Donald Lee Smith, of Cherokee County, Georgia, is pulled over for a traffic stop, resists arrest and is found to be in possession of a concealed assault weapon.
  • November 1995: "Sovereign citizen" Reinaldo A. DeJesus of White Creek, New York, is arrested for numerous traffic and vehicle charges, and two charges of resisting arrest, following a traffic stop for a burned-out headlight.
  • January 1996: Larry Martz, a militia and common law court activist in Ohio, attacks a Highway Patrol trooper during a traffic stop near Cambridge, OH. Martz had 23 weapons in his truck.
  • February, 1996: Washington militia leader Bruce Alden Banister is pulled over for expired license tabs. The confrontation which follows ends with him eventually convicted of third-degree assault of a police officer and resisting arrest.
  • August 1996: Kim Lee Bonsteel of Franklin, North Carolina, is convicted on 18 charges stemming from a 1994 incident in which he led law enforcement officers on a chase through three counties after he refused to produce his driver’s license or get out of his truck at a traffic stop. The chase destroyed several patrol cars, injured three officers, and caused a sheriff’s deputy to die of a heart attack.
  • January 1997: A routine traffic stop involving skinhead and militia leader Johnny Bangerter of Utah turns into a chase and brief standoff at a trailer park.
  • February 1997: Cheyne and Chevie Kehoe engage Ohio law enforcement officers in two well-publicized gun battles following a traffic stop in Wilmington, Ohio.

  • March 1997: Aryan Nations member Morris Gulett rams a police cruiser during a chase following an attempt to pull him over for going the wrong way down a one-way street. Gulett claimed he drover away because he did not have a drivers’ license and he "was just in one of those moods." One week earlier, another Ohio Aryan Nations member was arrested following a traffic stop during which police found that he had a loaded handgun stuffed in a beer carton.
  • August 1997: In New Hampshire, Carl Drega is stopped near a supermarket in Colebrook, New Hampshire, because of the rust holes in his pickup. Drega opens fire on the state trooper, killing him, then kills his partner as well. Drega then drives into town and kills two more people before fleeing into Vermont, where he has a final gun battle with police there. He dies, but not before injuring three more officers.
  • September 1997: Craig and Doug Brodrick, two brothers who had recently moved to Boise, are stopped for failing to signal. They begin a gun battle which results in their own deaths as well as the death of a Boise police officer and the wounding of another.

 These incidents are just a sampling of some of the confrontations that traffic stops involving extremists can produce. Far more common than events such as shootings or assaults are those in which extremists are merely obstreperous, arguing with and otherwise defying the officer who pulls them over. The example of Mark Kuncik of Ansonia, Connecticut, is representative of hundreds if not thousands of similar traffic stops across the nation. Pulled over in December 1997 by local police because he had a phony license plate which said "British West Indies," he turned out also to have a suspended driver’s license and no car insurance. But Kuncik claimed to be immune from all motor vehicle laws and free from any requirement to carry insurance or registration. He said that any judge that convicted him would be violating his constitutional rights and would be tried for treason. He was arrested.

Sadly, encounters with anti-government extremists can also produce consequences that manifest themselves only long after the actual confrontation. Law enforcement officers are frequently the target of bogus liens filed on their property, harassing lawsuits, phony arrest warrants or other "common law court" documents, threats and sometimes even violence. Perhaps the ultimate example of delayed consequences from a traffic stop occurred when an extremist named Timothy Thomas Coombs shot and seriously wounded Missouri State Highway Patrol Trooper Bobbie Harper on September 16, 1994. Harper, shot while in his own home, had arrested Robert Joos several months earlier (see the above list of confrontations). Coombs is still a fugitive.

But as frustrating or dangerous as delayed effects might be, they are merely consequences of the initial confrontation that officers must successfully manage. And the number of such confrontations with extremists seems to be increasing. There are no statistics available for this sort of incident, but there seems to be general agreement among authorities that the problem is a serious one. Stephen R. King, commander of the criminal intelligence section of the Indiana State Police suggested in a report written in late 1997 that "the most likely event to occur in Indiana involving the Patriot movement will more than likely be in the form of a confrontation or standoff. This could occur as the result of a traffic stop, during the service of official legal documents or as the result of attempts to take a person into custody." King also noted that police throughout Indiana had seen a growing trend among extremists not to carry licenses or registration, but rather to create homemade permits of various kinds. Indiana was not the first state to notice the danger of traffic stops involving extremists. As early as 1995 the superintendent of the Missouri State Highway Patrol, Colonel Fred Mills, pointed out an "evolving trend toward extremism, not only in Missouri, but across the nation." As a result, he said, law enforcement officers in Missouri are taught to treat each traffic stop "as if it could develop into a critical incident."

How can an officer tell if he or she is about to have to deal with an anti-government extremist? Sometimes there are no signs at all. But often there are clues that an observant officer can use to help him or her gauge the seriousness of the situation. Ignoring or failing to comprehend these clues can be very dangerous. On October 4, 1993, George Motley, a police sergeant from Opelika, Alabama, approached a Mustang in a strip mall parking lot. A woman had informed Motley that a boy in the vehicle had signaled to her for help. The car Motley approached had a peculiar homemade license plate on it that read "UCC1-207." When Motley asked the driver--a man named George Sibley--for his drivers license, Sibley replied that he had "no contracts with the state." After a few seconds more of confrontation, Sibley pulled a handgun out and began shooting at Motley, wounding him. Motley ran back towards his cruiser, to be met in the parking lot by Sibley’s common law wife, Linda Lyon, who mortally wounded Motley with her own firearm. Sibley and Lyon are now on death row. Would Motley be alive today if he knew the import of the license plate or the strange phrase about "contracts"? Perhaps not; Sibley and Lyon--fugitives from the law in Florida--were highly armed, aggressive and in a paranoid frame of mind. But perhaps knowledge of some of the warning signs would have served Motley well.

Some of the warning signs are obvious; others, less so. Here are some indications that an officer may be dealing with an anti-government extremist:

  • Peculiar license plates. These include, but by no means are limited to plates claiming to be from the British West Indies, Republic of Texas, Washitaw Nation, Kingdom of Heaven, Dominion of Malchezidek, Republic of Nicaragua or similar non-existent entity. They also include numerous variations on the themes of "sovereign citizen," "sovereign american," "common law," "UCC1-207" (or other UCC themes; these refer to passages in the Uniform Commercial Code), "Republic of [any state]," "militia," and biblical passages. Some plates display volume and page numbers for a document filed in a county recorder’s office somewhere. Others quote some phrase in a statute or legal writing. The quality of such plates range from homemade cardboard plates to stamped metal plates that look very legitimate. And of course some will use no license plate at all.
  • Objections to requests for registration or license on the basis that they are not driving a commercial vehicle. Many extremists claim that the laws requiring such documents apply only to vehicles used for commercial purposes.
  • Peculiar bumper stickers. There are bumper stickers and then there are bumper stickers. Some companies market stickers to anti-government extremists and these are readily identifiable. Examples from one company based in St. Marys, Kansas, include: "And the Lord said (Luke 11:46,52) ‘WOE to YOU LAWYERS’;" "Free the Slaves, Abolish IRS and the Federal Reserve;" "Our Danger Isn’t Fallout — It’s Sellout;" "Know Your Enemies: They Are Your Leaders!"; "Real Americans Don’t Wear U.N. Blue;" "Joe McCarthy Was Right;" and so on.
  • Other strange car decorations, including homemade placards and signs in windows or along tailgates. Cars might display "militia identification numbers" on them.
  • Strange statements from the driver or passenger, particularly in response to requests for license, registration, proof of insurance or other form of identification. Any references to these documents as "contracts" should be a warning sign; so too should any statement to the effect that they are not required to have them. If they self-identify themselves as "sovereign citizens," "non-resident aliens," "sovereigns," "common law citizens," "state citizens," "freemen," "constitutionalists," or claim some other pseudo-legal status, they are providing police with valuable information about their nature. Any suggestion that the Constitution or the Bible gives them an absolute right to travel unregulated, or if they present the officer with a Bible as a drivers’ license, can be considered a warning sign. Belligerent requests for the officer to produce an arrest warrant can also be a sign.
  • The subject hands the officer political literature or strangely threatening documents for him to read or sign. Anything that reads "Notice to Arresting Officer" or "Form CRIF 2PA95" or which purports to explain the law to the officer should be taken as a warning sign.
  • The subject attempts to audiotape the conversation.
  • The subject produces some sort of identification which seems to identify him or her as some sort of strange-sounding law enforcement officer, such as a "Special u.S. Marshal," a "Constitution Ranger," or agent with the "Civil Rights Task Force."

All of the above are examples of some of the possible warning signs. Certainly there can be others as well. The individuals described here tend to believe one or more of the following: 1) the government, federal and state and perhaps local as well, is illegitimate; 2) they are members of another system of government, which could be a "common law" system, a "township," the "Kingdom of Heaven," or any of a number of other varieties; 3) they have an absolute right to completely unfettered travel; 4) they can elude or escape the consequences of the law by creating bogus documents such as identification cards, vehicle-related documents or flyers to give to police officers; and 5) they are morally and/or legally justified in taking extreme action to protect the rights that they perceive are in jeopardy. Given these circumstances, one can imagine other possible statements, documents or actions that such mindsets could produce.

Identifying individuals with this anti-government philosophy is, however, only the first step. Once an officer determines that he or she is involved in some sort of minor or major confrontation with an anti-government extremist, he or she must correctly assess the situation and make decisions that will help to resolve it successfully. Because the nature and type of such confrontations can vary tremendously, the following suggestions are tentatively offered. Some of them are adapted from suggestions made by Assistant Police Chief Roger Bragdon of the Spokane, Washington, Police Department. Chief Bragdon has had years of experience dealing with anti-government extremists.

  • Caution should reign. Extremists are often volatile and are often very well-armed. Sometimes they may even have friends in separate cars following behind them. An officer should not hesitate to call for backup if he or she thinks that they may be in a situation involving an extremist. And just as important, the officer should wait for that backup to arrive before putting him or herself at risk.
  • Officers should be alert for the presence of concealed weapons at all times. Weapons may be concealed on the subject’s person or in a convenient hiding place. A vehicle may have multiple weapons and hundreds or thousands of rounds of ammunition. If a vehicle has passengers, the officer should be aware that they too may be well armed.
  • Officers should be careful to try not to heighten tension or suspicion. They should explain their actions to the subject so as not to cause alarm. They should be very careful before attempting any physical action involving the subject. This is an important consideration because the person in the car may think that they are in a situation far more serious and dangerous than the officer outside the vehicle perceives it to be. An unwary officer could then be surprised by an unexpected response from an extremist.
  • Officers should not try to argue political philosophy or legal interpretations with the subject. If handed materials, simply accept them and thank the subject.
  • Officers should try to defuse tension if they perceive the situation has become hotter than it should be. In particular, they should try to humanize themselves so that to the subject they become more than simply the symbol of an oppressive government. There are numerous ways to do so, including the time-honored tactic of telling the subject, "You may be right, I don’t know, but I’m just doing my job, you know? I get in trouble if I don’t give you this ticket." Playing dumb can also sometimes help. Spending some time listening to a subject pour out his or her political philosophy may result in the subject using up some nervous energy. The result may be a lessening of tension.
  • It is acceptable to try to postpone the confrontation to the future. If the subject claims that he or she should not be given a ticket for not having insurance or registration, the officer can suggest that is a legal argument that should be made when the ticket is mailed in, or should be made to a judge. That future confrontation may never occur.
  • Sometimes the officer must make a decision as to whether or not the incident is worth pursuing. An officer should not simply decide to let a "sovereign citizen" go just because it is not worth the hassle. That simply emboldens them and increases their activity. However, there may be times--for instance, if an officer is alone with a very angry extremist and no backup handy--when prudence dictates that retreating to fight another day is the best option. An extremist arrested on minor charges does not weigh very heavily in the scales against the life of a law enforcement officer.

Traffic stops are, for anti-government extremists, very tense events. Not only does their ideology lead them to believe that most such stops are unconstitutional and invalid, but they are also often knowingly breaking laws that they understand will get them in trouble. These laws can range from simply not having insurance or registration all the way up to carrying illegal weapons or explosives in the vehicle. Law enforcement officers must understand that the level of anxiety for an extremist in a traffic stop may be much, much higher than that for some other person. This fact, combined with the possibility of anti-government rage and close proximity to weapons, can spell great danger for any police officer not aware of the possibility of extreme intransigence or sudden violence. For that reason, law enforcement officers must be ready to defuse tension to the extent that it is possible and protect themselves and their fellow officers to the extent that they can.

Remember, forewarned is forearmed.

Source: http://www.adl.org/mwd/trafstop.htm


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption
KEYWORDS: copkillers; extremists; murder
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1 posted on 03/26/2002 6:07:30 AM PST by Cultural Jihad
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To: Cultural Jihad
I am particularly suspicious of licenses from Nutballistan.
2 posted on 03/26/2002 6:19:35 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit
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To: justshutupandtakeit
LOL! Looneystan, Ideologostan, Nutballistan: They're all neighboring countries, eh?
3 posted on 03/26/2002 6:21:53 AM PST by Cultural Jihad
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To: Cultural Jihad
I've always wondered if the more extreme "sovereign citizen" doctrines were custom-built by the Left as a sort of Gramscian assault on the notion of the sovereign individual. When "defending freedom" becomes inextricably associated with "being an obnoxiously self-righteous jerk," who would WANT to be free?
4 posted on 03/26/2002 6:28:57 AM PST by Poohbah
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To: Cultural Jihad
The Extreeeemists are coming!
5 posted on 03/26/2002 6:36:01 AM PST by skeeter
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To: Poohbah
Or for that matter, how many officials of the L.P. are really paid government agents who are gathering information on the loony extremists in their ranks? The whole enterprise may just be a front. LOL!
6 posted on 03/26/2002 6:36:53 AM PST by Cultural Jihad
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To: Cultural Jihad
Also: Ivehadallicanstan.
7 posted on 03/26/2002 6:41:22 AM PST by Erasmus
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To: Cultural Jihad
Now you are reduced to posting from the ADL website.

Pretty pathetic.

L

8 posted on 03/26/2002 6:41:47 AM PST by Lurker
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To: Cultural Jihad
Disagreed with a cop.
And, he frequents Free Republic.
BRANDED!
An "anti-government extremist."
9 posted on 03/26/2002 6:43:30 AM PST by ppaul
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To: Erasmus
Andicantstandnomoristan?
10 posted on 03/26/2002 6:44:54 AM PST by Cultural Jihad
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To: Cultural Jihad
Let's see - 16 cases over 8 years is two nutballs a year per my math. Statistically inconsequential in a nation of nearly 300 million. But Mark Pitcavage will use this article to bludgeon anyone who questions actions of the police and to continue the demonization of legitimate firearms owners and militias. He's a government sponsored left wing hack who has probably lost his sponsorship since the Rats were booted from the Presidency.

Also, in at least one of these cases, we have a guy who was pretty much pushed over the edge by an overbearing local government (go dig up the full story of Carl Drega, pulled over "because of the rust holes in his pickup." He wasn't gunning cops down because of this alone). I'm not excusing Drega - only saying that local governmental actions were partially at fault in that case. How many of these other cases had similar backdrops?

11 posted on 03/26/2002 6:46:20 AM PST by FreedomPoster
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To: Cultural Jihad
Didn't get enough Libertarian bashing on the first posting eh CJ, or is it you didn't like the responses? Curious? Blackbird.
12 posted on 03/26/2002 6:47:54 AM PST by BlackbirdSST
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Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: Lurker
I thought about that, Lurker. There are many left-wing extremists who also would be targeting Jews as much as these nutcase freemen posse militia skinhead types, and yet you don't see any references to those dangers on their website. Why is that do you suppose? Are there many more skinhead militia types than Red Brigadier types, perhaps? Even so, conservatives have a responsibility to condemn such extremism for a variety of reasons, first and foremost of which is the desire to see society and self-governance continue, and lessly because their existence besmirches the messages of true conservatism. If you like your 2nd Amendment right then you ought to be opposing these extremists, too, rather than griping at the ADL for doing your job for you.
14 posted on 03/26/2002 6:53:22 AM PST by Cultural Jihad
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To: Lurker
Really, the ADL how "unbiased" can a news source be?/sarcasm

The article listed 16 cases since 1994 where a suspected "extremist" resisted arrest or fled the scene resulting in pursuit.

That is 16 cases in how many hundreds of thousands or even millions of traffic stops in the same time frame?

How about doing the same story on inner city gang members or persons caught with crack cocaine? The numbers would be 1000s times greater, but then that would'nt make a good story, after all crackheads and gang bangers do not make their anti-semitism, if any public knowlege.

15 posted on 03/26/2002 6:53:41 AM PST by Rebelbase
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To: Cultural Jihad
"extremists (including "sovereign citizens," militiamen, white supremacists, and tax protesters) illustrate the potential dangers: " Those tax protesters are a dangerous lot ....Right up there with groups of two or more that discuss anti-Government stuff, like the Bill of Rights and the Constitution .... Barf ! Leo's made their bed and get paid their blood money...if they can't take the heat of the traffic stop, get an honest job instead.
16 posted on 03/26/2002 6:55:12 AM PST by Marobe
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To: Lurker
"Now you are reduced to posting from the ADL website."

For normal folks, it would be a reduction; for the site medievalist, it's progress of a sort.

17 posted on 03/26/2002 6:57:18 AM PST by headsonpikes
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To: Marobe
Leo's made their bed and get paid their blood money...if they can't take the heat of the traffic stop, get an honest job instead.

Does D.U. pay you by the word? They are not getting their money's worth.

18 posted on 03/26/2002 6:58:31 AM PST by Cultural Jihad
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To: Cultural Jihad
Does D.U. pay you by the word?

What a dolt. The police state you champion is fascist at its roots. You are the cheerleader of big brother. And in your case D.U. does get their moneys worth.

19 posted on 03/26/2002 7:05:06 AM PST by MileHi
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To: Cultural Jihad
So, what DO you do?

I'll tell you what most cops would do: They'd take that piece of paper, and conveniently "loose" it first of all, then he'd drag the guy out of the car (preferably through the window) and arrest him for resisting arrest.

Then he'd be taken back to the sation house, where the cop would show his buddies all the bruises he got from wrestling with the guy, and then he and his buddies would "educate" the prisoner about the proper way to treat Mr. Policeman.

If this post shows anything, it's that change of our government will never come about through a change of the police. This is because everyone who reads this is nodding their head and going "Yep, that's probably how it'd happen". I'm sure there are good policemen out there, but I myself have never met one that took any question of their authority kindly; not only unkindly, but dealt with such questions as one would deal with any personal insult.

20 posted on 03/26/2002 7:05:09 AM PST by FourtySeven
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To: Cultural Jihad
"If you like your 2nd Amendment right then you ought to be opposing these extremists, too, rather than griping at the ADL for doing your job for you. "

That is funny. All things are relative. 30 years ago the "extremist" groups were radical liberals whose supporters active or passive are now in controlling positions of the political/cultural landscape and are accepted as heros by some.

21 posted on 03/26/2002 7:05:16 AM PST by Rebelbase
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To: Cultural Jihad
Is it scary when people confront you with the Constitution? Us nut balls are probaly the only people in this country that understand what the Constitution means, you sheeple would do well to learn your rights.
22 posted on 03/26/2002 7:05:20 AM PST by illbenice
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More dirt on Pitcavage, known anti-self-defense leftist radical activist:

Your federal government funded a paranoid, conspiracy-minded activist to the tune of $2 million last year to, among other things, spy on little old me.

23 posted on 03/26/2002 7:10:02 AM PST by FreedomPoster
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To: Constitution Day
extreme bump
24 posted on 03/26/2002 7:12:23 AM PST by billbears
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To: Cultural Jihad
Interesting that both you and _Jim are posting the same propaganda from the ADL.

At least you attributed the ADL properly, _Jim, in his reply posting on a 'police state' thread never attributed the ADL as the source. (Some might call that plagarism. I think _Jim is the original author or has permission, therefore no plagarism)

25 posted on 03/26/2002 7:14:45 AM PST by Triple
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To: FreedomPoster
You anti-government extremists know who you are too. You are the ones who believe in free speech, the Second Amendment and the right to left alone.

I guess in today's world that does make us extremists, doesn't it?

26 posted on 03/26/2002 7:17:15 AM PST by Badray
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To: honway
July 1994: Steven Garrett Colbern is pulled over in a traffic stop in Upland, California, but resists arrest and has to be subdued by five officers. His car is found to contain an assault rifle, a silencer, and a part necessary to convert the rifle to full automatic file (he is later briefly thought to be the John Doe #2 sought after in the Oklahoma City bombing investigation).

Honway, I found this interesting tidbit while reading this article about untrainable sheeple.

27 posted on 03/26/2002 7:18:55 AM PST by Fred Mertz
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To: Cultural Jihad
You posted this article in another thread earlier this morning. And remember: if you're going to be a troll, at least try to be funny. Your Libertarian-smearing obsession is vapid.
28 posted on 03/26/2002 7:21:41 AM PST by toenail
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To: Cultural Jihad
In fact, a 1997 study released by the Southern Poverty Law Center

That's as far as I go.

CJ, if you ever thought you were making some sort of valid point on these forums, you can now give your head a shake and rid yourself of that delusion.

That you posted an article relying upon the forced conclusions of "studies" performed by the odious SPLC strips you of credibility faster than a school of famished piranha in the Amazon would strip you of flesh.

But, you don't have to take my word for it. Feel free to experiment.

29 posted on 03/26/2002 7:26:38 AM PST by Dr.Deth
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To: Lurker
Was there anything in the article you found to be incorrect or false?
30 posted on 03/26/2002 7:31:38 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit
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To: Cultural Jihad
Some things confuse me here.

First of all, isn't the ADL the "Anti-Defamation League", and isn't their organizational raison d'etre concerned with defending the rights of Jews? So why, then, are they concerned with potential conflicts between anarchists and government employees? What does that have to do with Jews or anti-Semitism?

Second, this whole article is essentially a stereotypical description - it starts with a completely made-up scenario, draws a caricature of a certain demonized person ("right wing anti-government extremist", "Caucasian"), and then proceeds to explain why such people are so scary and how they should be dealt with. Coming from the ADL, this is all very interesting, that's all.

I wonder what Nazi anti-Semitic literature looked like.

31 posted on 03/26/2002 7:40:27 AM PST by Dr. Frank fan
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To: D Joyce
If you are referring to smearing militias, your reference to the constitution is false. Militias in any case are not self appointed but "organiz[ed], arm[ed], and disciplin[ed]..." by Congress while the States appoint officers and provide training. Though an expert on the Constitution apparently you overlooked Article 1 Section 8 paragraph 16 (and 12).
32 posted on 03/26/2002 7:42:21 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit
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To: Triple
"I think _Jim is the original author or has permission..."

You really give him way too much credit. I think the system hes on gives him an index of scripted responses based on subject, he probably doesnt know who the source was.

CJ's an all together different sort, just a run of the mill lap dog. YIP! YAP! YIP!

33 posted on 03/26/2002 7:43:46 AM PST by gnarledmaw
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To: Dr. Frank
What does that have to do with Jews or anti-Semitism?

Many of these anarchists also espouse anti-Semitic ideas.

34 posted on 03/26/2002 7:57:38 AM PST by Poohbah
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To: justshutupandtakeit
"If you are referring to smearing militias, your reference to the constitution is false. Militias in any case are not self appointed but "organiz[ed], arm[ed], and disciplin[ed]..." by Congress while the States appoint officers and provide training. Though an expert on the Constitution apparently you overlooked Article 1 Section 8 paragraph 16 (and 12)."

You are a great example of a sheeple. The United States code labels every man between the ages of 17-45 as members of the unorganized militia. And since your socialist ass thinks the government has a constitutionaly given monopoly to power you should probaly read the Anti-Federalist Papers, the Federalist Papers, and the Constitutional Debates; you are in for a rude awakening.

"This portion would not yield in the United States an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to nearly half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves," federalist 46.

According to Title Ten; Section Three Hundred Eleven of the United States Code, "the militia consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age," who are, "citizens of the United States, and female citizens who are members of the National Guard."

Title Ten Section Three Hundred Eleven of the United States Code also labels two classes of the Militia. Class One is the, "organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia." Class Two is the, " unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia."

35 posted on 03/26/2002 7:57:59 AM PST by illbenice
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Comment #36 Removed by Moderator

To: Cultural Jihad
Posting from the ADL now? Sad. I shouldn't be surprised.

Justed checked out their homepage. No credibility there. They are the biggest extremists of all.

37 posted on 03/26/2002 8:05:18 AM PST by southern rock
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To: Poohbah
Many of these anarchists also espouse anti-Semitic ideas.

"Many" of them presumably also drink milk. Should this article be posted on the website of the Milk Advisory Board?

And if it's the anti-Semitism of some anarchists which concerns this author, why is the article directed at law enforcement officers, and not Jews? Nowhere in the article did the "anti-Semitism" of the stereotypically-described anarchist even come into play. Odd.

I would also remind you that anti-Semitic ideas are not limited to "Caucasian" "right-wing extremists". If you go to the Middle Eastern Studies department, or other social science department, of almost any college campus, you'll hear much more vitriolic anti-Semitic statements. Maybe "How To Deal With Tenured Professors" will be the subject of this guy's next article? Somehow, I doubt it.

38 posted on 03/26/2002 8:06:17 AM PST by Dr. Frank fan
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To: D Joyce
However, all officers of "unorganized militias" are required to obey the regulations promulgated by the state legislature and governor pertaining to the conduct of training, as well as maintaining good order and discipline within those under their command.
39 posted on 03/26/2002 8:07:33 AM PST by Poohbah
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To: Cultural Jihad
The commie ADL has a bunch of articles just like this one. Anyone who stands up for the rights and doesn't let the agents of the state roll right over them is an "anti-government extremist" in every one of these articles. Unfortunately, some people actually listen to the ADL's drivel.

I don't believe in the whole sovereign citizen movement, but the ADL likes to include things that normal people may to do defend their rights as indicators that the person may be involved in that nutty movement - and that they may, of course, be dangerous or whatever.

I've taken up the cause of fighting the myriad rights abuses perpetrated by state agencies such as CPS/DHS/DYCF or other child "protective" agencies. If you are battling a CPS agency, it is imperative that you audio or video record ALL interactions with these people - yet the ADL believes that is an indicator that you may be dangerous. Yes, you're dangerous - if the agent of the state violates your rights and you get it on tape, they can and should be held liable.

My kids carry "Reverse Miranda" cards - does that make me an anti-government extremist who is dangerous? These cards say what my kids might not be able to memorize perfectly. They say, in effect, "Notice to Government Agents: You are hereby informated that I have a right to have my parents or my personal attorney (contact info on reverse) present prior to answering any questions or submitting to any sort of examination. I am now exercising that right and request that you contact my parents or my attorney immediately. Before you pursue a course of action which may be illegal or may make you personal liable, you are urged to contact your legal department and reference Calabretta v. Floyd." Does this card make me or my children dangerous. Actually, the answer is yes. Because I will protect my rights and will fully pursue all legal recourse against any agent of the state that violates them.

But, I guess, to the ADL I'm an extremist. If an extremist is someone who stands up for their inalienable rights, then I guess I fit that definition. Given the leftist positions held by the ADL, I wear their 'extremist' distinction as a badge of honor.

40 posted on 03/26/2002 8:09:22 AM PST by Spiff
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To: Dr. Frank
I'm sorry. I thought I was dealing with a rational person. My apologies; I shan't bother you again.
41 posted on 03/26/2002 8:09:41 AM PST by Poohbah
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To: BlackbirdSST
Frankly I think we have to accept the laws we are born with. We weren't born in 1776; and many laws were made after that point in the interest of maintaining the nation.

I personally like license plate and driver's license laws and wish they'd be enforced more harshly because too many people drive.

I'd like people to pass an IQ test before voting too; then this would all be moot and Republicans would have a majority in local, state, and federal elections.

42 posted on 03/26/2002 8:16:13 AM PST by Naspino
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To: Poohbah
I'm sorry. I thought I was dealing with a rational person. My apologies; I shan't bother you again.

You are oh so clever. Bravo to you!

If what I wrote was so objectionable and not rational, one would think you'd be able to say what, and why, exactly. What did I say that was incorrect? I guess the world will never know. Tragic to deprive the world of your brilliant comeback on the subject, really.

I guess where we stand is this: according to you it makes perfect sense to say that Jews concerned about anti-Semitism have a vested interest in helping law enforcement officers (whether Jewish or not) deal with anarchists, because some of these anarchists are, may be, could be, anti-Semitic, even though their anti-Semitism has nothing to do with (1) why they get into confrontations with law enforcement officers, or (2) why these confrontations could become dangerous.

Yeah, that's "rational" all right.

43 posted on 03/26/2002 8:17:22 AM PST by Dr. Frank fan
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To: Spiff
The commie ADL has a bunch of articles just like this one. Anyone who stands up for the rights and doesn't let the agents of the state roll right over them is an "anti-government extremist" in every one of these articles.

Of course. Because to the ADL, government is the savior. From the ADL point of view, government is all that can protect "them" against the big, bad Christian white males with guns and the constitution.

44 posted on 03/26/2002 8:20:12 AM PST by southern rock
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To: illbenice
Dear Ill, I am no socialist and am aware that the militia is not the single constitutional source of military and police power as DJoyce stated.

The constitutional reference clearly states that the officers are appointed by States and trained according to the regulations of Congress. Likely the quote you presented does not tell the whole story since you ideologues rarely tell the whole truth. For example, under what conditions does an unorganized militia come into existence and what authority is granted it? Or can any group of illmannered, illeduated, illintentioned screwballs form their own militia? Was the Black Panther Party an example of an unorganized militia? Or the Fruit of Islame guards of Louis Farrankant?

Illinois's constitution defines the militia as all able-bodied persons residing in the State not exempt by law. It also specifies when it can be called out. And states that "The military shall be in strict subordination to the civil power."

One thing a militia is not is a group of nutcases declaring that they are the militia and claiming the authority to disobey police. Those are simply criminals whether marching to the orders of the Panthers or the Aryan Nations. As criminals they will face the bar of Justice. Make sure you are on the right side. Apparently you have a disability which restricts your ability to properly discriminate since your illtemper leads you to believe that I am a socialist (not that you even know what one is) when that is as far from the truth as you can get.

45 posted on 03/26/2002 8:25:56 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit
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To: Cultural Jihad; justshutupandtakeit; Constitution Day
You’ve just been pulled over for speeding at the end of a long, grinding day. But you haven’t done anything wrong, you haven’t hurt anyone. And now here comes walking up to your car a highway patrol officer. You’ve put up with them taking taxes out of your paycheck. You acquiesced when the judge ordered wage garnishes for child support. You said okay when the city inspectors told you not to build your den without their permits. How much more should you take from them? How much more can you take? Maybe it’s about time you stood up for yourself, stood up for your rights. Doesn’t the Constitution apply to you, too? Isn’t it about time they respected you for a change?

You can see how easily a confrontational attitude can build in one of these extremists

That's an extremist? Someone who's tired of paying unconstitutional taxes, filling out useless paperwork just to logjam the federal government's system up even more, even though not even in the wildest imagination of the Founders(well except Hamilton but he wanted a monarchy for God's sake) the government would take on this much power? Well, heck if that's the case, I'm downright the worst citizen of my respective state!!

I got pulled over for a seatbelt violation a few months back. The officer asked why I wasn't wearing my seatbelt. Told him why, he didn't like the answer, got the ticket and left it at that. Went to court to fight it, got the seatbelt violation thrown out after arguing with the DA for about 10 minutes. After the amount of taxes I already have to pay in the tax hell of NC(top ten in the nation and moving to number one!!), I don't see that the state government needs another $25. And considering that each and every state was coerced to pass this seatbelt law (envisioned by no other than RINO Liddy Dole coming to a Senate near you, God help us all!!) under the guises of doing it for the children to again pervert the meaning of the Constitution, you're d#mn skippy I'm not wearing my seatbelt. If I want to go through the windshield that's my choice, not the national government's. They make me feel uncomfortable.

So yes I will argue with every cop that pulls me over for that until that ridiculous law is overturned. And as for documentation. The Southern Poverty Law Center is the last place I would get resources that would be expected to stand up to more than just scant review

46 posted on 03/26/2002 8:38:37 AM PST by billbears
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To: justshutupandtakeit
"The constitutional reference clearly states that the officers are appointed by States and trained according to the regulations of Congress. Likely the quote you presented does not tell the whole story since you ideologues rarely tell the whole truth. For example, under what conditions does an unorganized militia come into existence and what authority is granted it? Or can any group of illmannered, illeduated, illintentioned screwballs form their own militia? Was the Black Panther Party an example of an unorganized militia? Or the Fruit of Islame guards of Louis Farrankant?"

The quote from federalist 46 is part of a paper that explains that the government forces should never hold more power than the strength of the people. There are no conditions for the militia to organize, and its power is derived from the citizens. And yes any ill-mannered group can start their own militia, you have no business deciding who has what rights. If a group of militant morons organizes that is fine, just as long as their behavior is not perpendicular with the general populaces constitutional rights. The black panthers could not be considered a un-organized militia, they do not recognize our constitution, there for do not recognize our constitutional rights

By the way I would never miss-quote our founding fathers, that would be advantages to a healthy debate

47 posted on 03/26/2002 8:41:59 AM PST by illbenice
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To: Cultural Jihad
Bumping this to respond later.
48 posted on 03/26/2002 8:42:34 AM PST by TBP
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To: Cultural Jihad
"Would Motley be alive today if he knew the import of the license plate or the strange phrase about "contracts?"

Probably so. Perhaps the ADL should take a refresher course in 'Sovereignty 101' and explain to the cops why non-contract, non-federal Citizens believe and live the way they do. We never had these problems before the 14th Amendment was passed. But then, the gummint didn't tell the newbies they were not sovereigns and the cops don't know the difference. So who to blame and how to fix it?

I know. Let the unsuspecting cops deal with the few remaining sovereigns there are -- and demonize anyone else who believes they have an inheritance.

In today's fast-moving global society, we can no longer tolerate individual expressions of self-rule, for it corrupts the will of the 'majority.' After all, we ARE a 'democracy,' right?

49 posted on 03/26/2002 8:44:13 AM PST by Eastbound
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To: Cultural Jihad
Fire a couple of warning shots into the suspect's torso. Works every time.
50 posted on 03/26/2002 8:46:12 AM PST by Non-Sequitur
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