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Old Hoosier Apologizes to Libertarians
Thread from yesterday ^ | 3-26 | TOH

Posted on 03/26/2002 7:30:11 AM PST by The Old Hoosier

Yesterday, I got into an argument with some libertarians. I promised to humiliate myself if they could answer the following question:

If I want to sell myself into slavery in order to pay off debts, why should the government be able to prevent me? Why should I not have every right to enter into an indissoluble contract surrendering my freedom--temporarily or permanently--to someone else in exchange for some consideration?

I hereby admit that I was wrong, because ThomasJefferson agreed that the government should have no power to prohibit voluntary slavery--a step that I did not think any of them would want to take. I hereby eat crow. (Tpaine and Eagle Eye still haven't given direct answers, but I'll mention it here when they do, and eat more crow.)

The relevant part of the long argument we had is here. TJ agrees to voluntary slavery at 374.


TOPICS: Free Republic; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: indenturedservitude; libertarian; sasu
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To: William Terrell
As a rule, you see it correctly, my friend. I hold the opinion that the draft IS involuntary servitude by its nature. Whether or not we should use it is yet open to question, although it has been well said that any society that cannot attract enough VOLUNTEERS to save it during wartime is likely not WORTH saving. Witness WWII, where they had the draft but most folks volunteered or called their draft board and asked to be called up... No shortage of volunteers!!!

I went to Parris Island in '67 and got to the SE Asian Wargames in '69... did you get to participate?

Semper fi!

251 posted on 03/28/2002 6:19:16 PM PST by dcwusmc
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To: William Terrell
Hi, I thankfully have no clue about your ass and have no desire to find out. I do NOT live in San Francisco. It is so bad there I hear that if you drop your wallet, rather than bending over to pick it up, you kick it to a safe city! LOL

On the issue of the Constitution, I agree it gives it's power to the Congress, Senate and all that. I also agree that in many cases the way it is interpreted seems to suggests that the Courts are all full of Yoga Masters!
But the main area that you don't like that I think is a true fact is that if they didn't interpret the Constitution with current law, you'd have to go with adding on amendments. If you do that you would have a Constitution with amendments that would make it look like the tax code law books (LARGE LOADED AND CONFUSING)! In future years I could see where you would easily have more than 13,000 amendments if the current system didn't exist.
That in my opinion would reduce the original Constitution to just a nice old piece of history as originally written. And NONE of those in Congress wanted that, so we have what we have. (FROM WHAT I HAVE READ SO FAR)!

If you don't like the current way of doing it you would get the 13,000 amendment method. That would be far more out of control and was why the current way won out from what I read. I am a logical guy and it makes sense to me over the alternatives.

Can you come up with a third way that would work better without being sarcastic for real? Right now we have two choices:
#1 current system.
#2 thousands of amendments (confusing).
#3 your sincere heart felt better ideas?

You have to realize there is no way to just go back to the original without amendments because we simply do no live in the 1700s any more. The idea of amendments up the kazoo just isn't efficient. I don't work for the Government at all, but I can't think of an easy answer to this.

PS: Please next time leave your ass out this and use your gray matter upstairs.

Best wishes to you and may you and your family have a wonderful Easter. God Bless!

252 posted on 03/28/2002 6:44:53 PM PST by A CA Guy
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To: dcwusmc
for 222 & 223!

So you would have preferred that instead of the way we do stuff in this country now you would have rather had a couple of thousand amendments added to the Constitution.

Fine, a large majority did not agree with you and thought the best way to keep the reverence of the original and yet deal with today was to do what they do now.

Without getting flippant about it, please think about it and give your preferred method for dealing with the Constitution as we move into the future of our tomorrows.

I'm not being sarcastic when I say you would have to be dreaming if you think they would just go with your interpretation of the original and let every SIN run wild in the name of freedom. If they could not use their laws as they do now they would simply patch new amendments before they end their current method. IMO

Happy Easter to you and your family David.
God Bess You All In This Holiday Season and every other day as well.

253 posted on 03/28/2002 7:02:12 PM PST by A CA Guy
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To: dcwusmc
Black's says "The condition of one who is compelled by force, coercion, or imprisonment, and against his will, to labor for another, whether he is paid or not."

The draftee would be laboring for the good of himself, his family and nation, not for the personal gratification of another individual. Service for men is a duty. I'll definitely grant you that a nation that doesn't inspire volunteers has a questionable right to exist. But once you get caught up in the protection racket of a nation of people, the only way out of being impressed to defend it seems to be to leave it. Philosophically, that is.

Was in jungles until late '67. Got out in '68. Grunt.

254 posted on 03/28/2002 7:29:25 PM PST by William Terrell
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To: Roscoe
As people have told you till they're blue in the face, slavery... involuntary. Contracts... voluntary. One can't equal the other, by definition. Unless, that is, you want to start redefining what is, is.

Gotta go. I'm sure, however, that somebody, somewhere, is breathlessly awaiting your next authoritative sound bite denouncing the eeeeeevil Libertarians.

255 posted on 03/28/2002 8:10:18 PM PST by MadameAxe
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To: tpaine
Some self-professed libertarians are clueless about the beliefs they think they've embraced.
256 posted on 03/28/2002 11:26:39 PM PST by Roscoe
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To: MadameAxe
As people have told you till they're blue in the face, slavery... involuntary.

Indentured servitude was a form of slavery entered into by an initially voluntary act, blue faces not withstanding.

257 posted on 03/28/2002 11:29:49 PM PST by Roscoe
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To: A CA Guy
You are an absolute liberal whore with your "living Constitution" crapola. The reason they want to interpret the Constitution out of existence is for exactly the reasons you like it... namely that the Constitution is a set of CHAINS ON GOVERNMENT, not on the people... and LIBERAL WHORES CAN'T STAND A FREE PEOPLE. Get thee to DU where all your other whorish buds hang out and stop trying to impede the restoration of the Constitution as the Supreme Law of the Land, where it LIMITS GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE IN PEOPLE'S LIVES... By about a dozen orders of magnitude compared to what your ilk have foisted on us.
258 posted on 03/29/2002 2:40:54 AM PST by dcwusmc
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To: A CA Guy
On the issue of the Constitution, I agree it gives it's power to the Congress, Senate and all that.

The Constitution created Congress. Without the Constitution there would be no Congress. And all that.

But the main area that you don't like that I think is a true fact is that if they didn't interpret the Constitution with current law, you'd have to go with adding on amendments.

The Constitution controls the law that can be passed. If the interpretation of a law is not consistant with the Constitution, it's unconstitutional.

If you do that you would have a Constitution with amendments that would make it look like the tax code law books (LARGE LOADED AND CONFUSING)! In future years I could see where you would easily have more than 13,000 amendments if the current system didn't exist.

Methinks you joust with phantoms. In 180 years there have been 26 amendments made, and 10 of them were made in one swoop, so you could really say that 16 amendments have been made in 180 years. To give you the benefit of the doubt, we'll use the 26 instead of the 16. That means that it would take 90,000 years to get to 13,000 amendments.

I have to admit I don't understand most of what you said. We have a Constitution at the federal level and one each at the state level. These constitutions limit the making, execution of and judging the application of, laws. Since the people of the nation brought the government that exercises these powers into being, only they, not the government creature they created, can change it.

The government can propose changes, but the people (within the states) must ratify. The only alternate way of changing any constitution would be to have government officials do it, therby enabling created creatures the power to alter their own creation.

Please clarify what you want. I haven't been able to make it out. What I've read is incoherent. Are you saying that the Supreme Court, another creature created by the people, should make de facto changes to the Constitution? So that it can change with the "times"?

If that is your remedy, I would say that the Constitution and constitutions are to govern the behavior of people who administrate the laws in America. The "changes" in the "times" are only measured by technology social theories. People and their behavior has not changed no matter what the advances in technology or social theory.

259 posted on 03/29/2002 5:32:06 AM PST by William Terrell
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To: Roscoe
Indentured servitude was a form of slavery entered into by an initially voluntary act

If they voluntarily agreed to be an indentured servant for a certain amount of money, for a certain amount of time, but then were not let go, that would be fraud, because the indenturer didn't live up to his end of the contract.

It's hard for me to imagine how awful people's lives must have been back then that they would do such a thing as sell themselves into servitude, but they must have thought it a better deal than whatever would have happened to them (or perhaps, their families) otherwise. They're the ultimate example of people trading liberty for security.

260 posted on 03/29/2002 5:40:58 AM PST by MadameAxe
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To: William Terrell
I'm saying that according to what I read on the Congress website there is an understanding now that rather than amend the Constitution left and right as you and I thought they would have to, they instead allow our representatives write new laws as needed.

The reasoning was that if they didn't do that the original Constitution would lose it's historic reverence with too many amendments.

They instead do gymnastic interpretation of the Constitution rather than grow the amendments.

As a purest I am sure you and many others don't like that method.
The Congress and Courts have seemed to make that their reasoning for not creating what could be thousands of amendments.

I don't say I think that is the best way, but I cans see where if you add a bunch of amendments the Constitution would eventually be lost in add-ons.

I don't mind a better other way to handle this issue. I do understand how the Government went this route to handle a modern world.

I also fully understand that EVERYTHING more or less came to be through the Constitution as originally written.

I also have no problem with going about doing things differently. I just don't see anything to logically do so out there.

As I told David the former USMC warrior (who along with many Libertarians wants everybody to legally doing illegal drugs) on another thread. I am sure before the Congress would allow all kinds of what we know as SIN to be going on in the name of FREEDOM, I guarantee they would first amend the heck out of the Constitution before they would allow anarchy. (Freedom run amuck)

Happy Easter to you.

261 posted on 03/30/2002 8:13:09 AM PST by A CA Guy
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To: dcwusmc
Cussing is a substitution for a lack of intellect during a conversation.
All you do is cuss on most threads.
Too bad for you and yours!

I wonder how high you "didn't rise" in the USMC career because of your temper and language problem? But I am sure you are fully aware of this issue.

Your ethics involving drugs is nothing to boast in public about either. (Though it is part of the Libertarian mantra!)
Good day!

262 posted on 03/30/2002 8:23:56 AM PST by A CA Guy
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To: A CA Guy
I think the basic concept that controls here is that no government works for the people much past initial inception. Many work against the people at inception. It doesn't matter if there is a constitution or not. We have an elderly government now. National Alzheimers has progressed.

One of the symptoms that the condition has progressed to the point of madness is that people want to empower the government to invade by law personal choices and conditions that are between them and God, and have no destructive effect on society as a whole.

Under these conditions it does not matter what safeguards there are; they will be circumvented, as evidenced by the fact that laws against drugs and guns have been initiated, not through amendment, but expanding Article 1 Section 8 Clause 3 to insane limits.

I'm reluctant to argue with you about this problem because you support that expansion, because elements of that expansion fits your personal prejudices. This kind of attitude has been anticipated by big government hogs and is being used to their advantage and against your's and our's.

From your posts on this forum, I have come to the conclusion that what you want to have is tantamount to a theocracy. But you have to remember such a form of governing will be run by human beings, and any seat of government of whatever form is a repository of wealth and power, the most attractive and the most corrosive to the human spirit known. They attract sociopaths, who are willing to use methods no available to more ethical people, so they will ineviditably prevail.

What we have now, constitution-wise and the amendment process, is probably the best method to ride herd on corruption, and even it isn't working, as you note. Anything tried heretofore has been worse.

Think about it. Libertarianism does not grow in a sterile medium, and all systems tend toward balance. Consider libertarians compose the force driving toward a balance, and your attitudes are the driving force toward an inbalance. All your efforts against libertarianism simply drive it and all your efforts give it power and force.

263 posted on 03/31/2002 7:20:22 AM PST by William Terrell
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To: A CA Guy
If you don't like how I respond to you, quit acting like a liberal whore. You call yourself "conservative," yet you expound like Diane Feinswine or Chuck Schumer or HilLIARy Clintoon. If it offends you that I throw it back to you, tough. You play the game, you get the name. I do not suffer fools lightly, never have, never will.

My stance on drugs is that it is NOT my business what drugs YOU do as long as you do not present a danger to me by your PUBLIC behaviours. You can do all the drugs you want as long as you stay home and chill there. OK? And you do need to change your drugs, what you take now is not doing the job for you!

264 posted on 04/01/2002 5:53:04 PM PST by dcwusmc
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To: summer
Why don't you quit palying this stupid "You like Gore better" game. It makes you look childish.
265 posted on 04/04/2002 6:15:21 AM PST by Scarlet Pimpernel
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To: Scarlet Pimpernel
I have no idea what you are talking about, especially since I did not post anything on this thread.
266 posted on 04/04/2002 6:26:44 AM PST by summer
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To: Scarlet Pimpernel
Correction: I did post about Cher's grounds for divorce. Sorry, I forgot that. But, how does your comment relate to my comment? I am still lost here as to why you said this to me. Perhaps you can explain what you meant.
267 posted on 04/04/2002 6:29:57 AM PST by summer
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