Man kills four kids and himself in Murder Suicide, Merced

KSEE-NBC ^ | March 26, 2002 | KSEE-NBC

[flyervet]

Is it?

[pillars]

You bet I believe that is a possibility! Biological connections are not the only way we may claim children as "ours". There are myriad reasons why he may have taken all the kids. None of them good, or right, but reasons all the same in his mind.

[demnomo]

Why do I assume he was a control-freak? Because he murdered his own child and the children of his ex-wife in order to get back at her!!! That's power. That's control--at least to a person who wants revenge against another human being in the most terrifying and hurtful way possible. I can't imagine anything more wicked than to hurt another person by murdering their young children. It's pretty obvious.

Oh, and another thing, a truly decent, manly man wouldn't have done this in the first place, nor would he have killed himself in a last cowardly act no matter how awful his ex-wife may have treated him. I am a stay-at-home Mom who homeschools and believes that my husband is the head of our Christian household. Your belief that wives can cause men to become evil is just another excuse--almost as bad as those awful Femi-Nazi's who mistakenly believe that men and women think and are alike. (Actual wife and husband abusers use the excuse that their spouse drove them to it all the time.) There is one thing that every human being is alike in--we are free to choose between good and evil. This ex-husband chose sin and wickedness by murdering children.

[Diddle E. Squat]

. But I will NOT make the man out to be some terrible brute, and heap all sympathy on her, without all of the facts.

HE KILLED 4 CHILDREN, 3 OF WHICH WERE NOT EVEN HIS OWN!

That isn't enough on its own to condemn him? There is NEVER any justification for such murder of innocents.

[RobRoy]

Now explain why he killed three other children who weren't his.

I can offer many explanations. I can explain why Hitler invaded the Ukraine, why the terrorists destroyed the towers, why the Romans and Jewish leadership crucified Jesus.

The explanations? The same explanations for why everybody, I repeat, everybody does hurtful things, any hurful things, is fear (can cause pre-emtive strikes), and/or the belief that they have been wronged to the point that it justifies what they are doing.

Is it right? He!! no! But we are all narcisistic when we act out in these ways - and we are wrong. Some people just feel more hurt and therefore more justified to do hurtful things.

Courts and ex's don't seem to understand the pandoras box of human emotions that they are opening with unilateral no-fault divorce. And they certainly do not understand the gravity of what they are doing to the psyche of hundreds of thousands of male citizens of this country every year.

On the other hand, the family law courts do have metal detectors nowadays. I guess they are at least somewhat aware of the beast they have unleashed.

If you keep poking a docile bear in a cage, don't be surprised if it eventually tries to tear your arm off.

Humans can be quite dangerous. Don't antagonize them. They have the capacity to mentally justify almost any action when motivated - very dangerous.

These stories will continue to sprout up. I expect the frequency to increase before it gets better.

[Diddle E. Squat]

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers,incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. [II Timothy 3:1-5]

Wow, I never realized that all those Depends commercials were a sign that the Armegeddon was near!

[Amore]

You make an excellent point. That's one thing all abusers have in common -- the belief that it's the other person's fault, it's the other person who MADE the abuser do it, MADE them hurt that other person.

[demnomo]

And after reading Pillars post several times, I don't think he/she meant it the way you are interpretting the words.

Possibly, but I don't think that this type of massacre should be used to justify or excuse any husband or wife who have been abused to cause such pain and suffering to innocent family members.

Yes, there are a lot more women who want to wear the pants in the family today. No matter what NOW or other modern women believe, women trying to control the family can make most men insecure and confused about whether or not they are real men. It also makes some men not care anymore about being good providers, husbands and fathers because they have been brainwashed to believe that they should feel guilty for taking the reigns (male subjugators!) and not letting the women do it all!

Yes, there are some truly heinous governmental cases involving divorce and personal values that have unfairly caused havoc for some families. (I'm fighting for a San Juan Homeschool family who is being harassed by their son's former public school!)

But using these sorts of incidents as an excuse for the sort of behavior that happened in Merced is stretching it, IMHO.

[flyervet]

I am saying that when women strip men of their masculinity, then hold them hostage financially, deprive them of being fathers to their children, humiliate and torment them, all with government approval, so that the men cannot fight back, eventually they may snap.

Biological connections are not the only way we may claim children as "ours".

How, exactly, could this man have been held hostage to support children who weren't actually his? How do you deprive someone of being a father to someone who he is not related to in any sense of the word. By your logic, courts must also consider the rights of the soon-to-be ex-step-parents when doling out custody or visitation rights. While that's certainly very generous of you, it's hard to imagine a situation more humiliating than being forced by the courts to share custody of your progeny with a stranger through no fault of your own. Talk about depriving a father of his children!

Of course, since we can now claim children as our own through methods other than biological, any time your children have a close relationship with an adult, you would risk having to share custody with that adult. "Try not to spend too much time at practice, son. Coach and I have different vacation priorities and I'll be darned if you get to spend spring break camping while the rest of us go to Grandma's house,"

[flyervet]

I've enver heard of an enraged bear killing another bear's children to get revenge against the zoo keeper.

[RobRoy]

That isn't enough on its own to condemn him? There is NEVER any justification for such murder of innocents.

Silly rabbit, sometimes good people do bad things. Trust me, I've seen it. All people have a breaking point. The only one that doesn't was hung on a cross...

[RobRoy]

I've enver heard of an enraged bear killing another bear's children to get revenge against the zoo keeper.

That's because bears aren't as smart as humans. Humans have a far greater capacity for both good and evil than any animal.

[pillars]

Stay with me here. NO EXCUSES. This is a terrible thing, that never should have happened. But it did, and it seems to be becoming an epidemic. We need to find out WHY, and then DO something about it.

I am not, repeat, am NOT, condoning this man's actions. But we have to understand that until we get to the root cause, and fix it, we will have more sad stories like this. It is HORRIBLE what this man did. Now let's get to the why, and prevent it in the future.

We can, many of us, stand here and say that we believe men are the heads of the household and that no "real" man would ever do such a terrible thing. We can make the assumption that he must be a brute and a control freak. We can make all kinds of claims that "our" men would never do such a thing. But we've never pushed them to that limit. We don't know, really, what they are capable of.

It is not an excuse to say that women can push men into doing terrible things. It is a fact that, when women, with the courts approval, strip men of so many rights and dignities, giving them no recourse, they may go over the edge. There are so many cases out there of where the man is desperately trying to do the right thing, but is beaten down and not allowed to. He may be choosing to do good over evil, but is prevented from it, and so chooses to us what appears to be evil, but in his desperate mind may be the only, or best, alternative. Again, it's not right. But it is becoming prevelant in this country, and women, along with the courts, have the power to stop it.

[RobRoy]

You make an excellent point. That's one thing all abusers have in common -- the belief that it's the other person's fault, it's the other person who MADE the abuser do it, MADE them hurt that other person.

Bingo! That is exactly why so many women are attempting unilateral no fault divorces these days. Unfortunately, when there are children involved, they find out too late that they have jumped from a warm frying pan into a hot fire.

[RobRoy]

Possibly, but I don't think that this type of massacre should be used to justify or excuse any husband or wife who have been abused to cause such pain and suffering to innocent family members.

My point exactly. At no time did Pillars attempt to excuse the action. He/she was attempting to explain why one might do it. Explain and excuse are two completely different words with completely different meanings.

They are close together in a dictionary - maybe that's what confuses some people...

[pillars]

As bizarre as even you seem to find it, that is exactly what is happening. There are MANY cases out there where stepparents are being forced to pay financially for children that are not biologically theirs. One criteria that the court uses is how long you have been in the childs life. Step-parents, and even grandparents, petition for visitation rights these days. I can even recall a case where an ex-boyfriend petitioned for, and won, partial custody of 2 boys (in that case, the mother had died, and the grandparents had custody). So, as strange as it may seem to you and me, biological ties are NOT the only ones that bind, according to our court system.

[flyervet]

Exactly. Bears attack the one causing their pain. This indivdual struck out blindly at his own child and someone else's children, then killed himself. Unless you believe these children were causing his pain, you must admit that what this man did was every bit as evil and almost as random as any other mass murderer.

[Paul C. Jesup]

a man went to the home of his ex-wife

Divorce court's latest casualties.

[RobRoy]

Exactly. Bears attack the one causing their pain. This indivdual struck out blindly at his own child and someone else's children, then killed himself.

Yes, yes, yes! That is because bears are too stoopid to look beyond the immediate. They are not even self aware, they simply want to stop the source as they see it. It is beyond their pea brained comprehension to damage something that you hold dear just to get back at you. They're not that smart - nor is any other animal. That's also why they don't commit suicide. Their cranial capacity is not above the minimal threshold required to even spark such a thought. How do you kill yourself intentionally when the concept of "self" is beyond your comprehension.

Unless you believe these children were causing his pain, you must admit that what this man did was every bit as evil and almost as random as any other mass murderer.

Man, your giving me a headache! Who said it wasn't evil? And it's never random when you know the people.

Evil? Yes! Random? By definition, no!

[flyervet]

As bizarre as even you seem to find it, that is exactly what is happening. There are MANY cases out there where stepparents are being forced to pay financially for children that are not biologically theirs.

Hmmmm... nope, I don't buy this at all. Give me one instance where a step-parent has been forced to pay for someone else's children.

Step-parents, and even grandparents, petition for visitation rights these days.

Of course, visitation rights are not custody rights. But you knew that, right?