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Not Going to Take It Anymore
FreeRepublic ^ | 4/01/02 | Ben A. Conservative

Posted on 04/01/2002 5:42:41 AM PST by B. A. Conservative

How many times have you heard this statement? Have you used this phrase yourself? Is FreeRepublic just a support group (form of group therapy) for burned-out or recovering conservatives much like the function served by AA for alcoholics?

I have a list of questions to which I don't have the answers, but believe that these are questions that deserve answers. If you have asked yourself more than a few of these questions or even entertained the thoughts that these questions express, then I am inviting you to participate in an exchange of ideas. I hope that enough Freepers will provide their thoughts in order that we can use your answers to end and reverse the damage that is being done to our country and our way of life by Democrats and other liberals.

I intend to provide the complete list as part of this post. I am going to post each question one at a time for its own thread. Each posting of a question will be several days apart to allow time for those willing to participate. I hope that anyone willing to participate will hold their replies to specific questions until each question is asked as a topic of its own with the first question to be posted on Thursday. I am hoping that you will use replies to this post as a means of attracting Freepers whom you know might have an interest in this discussion and the direction in which it goes. Here is the List:

  1. Is the United States broken?
  2. If it is broken, can it be fixed?
  3. If it can be fixed, how long will it take?
  4. Who will fix it?
  5. Will there be opposition to fixing it?
  6. Can the opposition be defeated within a reasonable period of time?
  7. How long is reasonable?
  8. How realistic are your expectations about whether it can be fixed?
  9. How realistic are your expectations with regard to time?
  10. If it can't be fixed, have you considered other solutions regarding your disappointment with the present state of affairs in the United States?
  11. Could other countries offer the freedom you seek?
  12. Are there other existing countries that offer more freedom than what is currently offered in the United States?
  13. If one state were to secede and offer a Constitutional Republic like the one we had, would you consider living there?
  14. How would the United States respond to one state's elective and voluntary peaceable declaration of its own independence from the United States?
  15. Would the United States be willing to use military action including the killing of peaceful secessionists?
  16. If a Boris Yeltsin took a stand in the state capitol, would the United States send in the tanks and kill him and/or his compatriots?
  17. If the United States were actually willing to use force to surpress a state's secession, would you still want to live in the United States?
  18. Would that be the final straw proving to any "doubting Thomas"es that the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States are now empty meaningless words that no longer have validity as ideas?
  19. Would this be the proof to some that the United States is now no different from any other form of tyranny?
  20. If one state successfully and peaceably seceded, would others follow?
  21. Would we see groups of states organizing as regional republics competeing for citizens by offering more freedom than their neighboring nation/states?
  22. Could our freedoms and liberties be restored more certainly and more quickly by forcing governments to compete with one another in an effort to please its citizens and/or prospective citizens?
  23. Does the United States have a monopoly on government?
  24. Is the military superiority that the United States possesses over the rest of the world sufficient reason for its citizens to sacrifice their freedoms in the interests of security?
  25. Could the military strength and superiority of the United States be obtained through the equivalent of a North American Nato?
  26. How can we restore our freedoms without secession?

    I suspect most Freepers share my frustrations, but have not let their thinking run as far afield as I have let mine. Quite frankly, I am not at all happy with my answers to these questions. And while this may prove to be a fool's errand, I assure you it is not intended as an April Fools. As is so common on this site, feel free to Freep This Poll.



TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism
KEYWORDS: freedom; liberty
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To: JohnGalt
A BLOATing bump back to you.
51 posted on 04/05/2002 3:24:50 PM PST by GOV'T MULE
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To: Cultural Jihad
I didn't read anywhere in the mission statement which says FreeRepublic is a group therapy session for hopeless conservatives who think all is lost to fascism and socialism and nothing can be done to get our freedoms back short of a bloodbath. The ones being trolls are those who promulgate and proselytize wacko militia nutcase ideologies.

So, what can we offer said trolls as a workable alternative? "Go Pat Go" seems to have failed. W's doing all he can to tread water until '04. The sheeple are hopelessly tied to cheap oil and their 401Ks. How are we to accomplish your "cultural jihad," Cultural Jihad?

52 posted on 04/08/2002 9:44:59 AM PDT by newgeezer
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To: newgeezer
If you answer no to the first question I suppose it means you are a sheeple or something.
53 posted on 04/08/2002 9:48:41 AM PDT by biblewonk
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To: biblewonk
If you answer no to the first question I suppose it means you are a sheeple or something.

If you answer "no" to my first question -- you replied to my #52 --you may wish to reread the question. ;-)

54 posted on 04/08/2002 9:57:52 AM PDT by newgeezer
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To: Ken H
If the Tenth Amendment were obeyed, this country could have 50 Republics governing in 50 unique and diverse ways, all within the protection and constraints of the Constitution.

If pigs could fly...

Or -- let me guess -- are you saying it's better that the Tenth Amendment is not enforced?

55 posted on 04/08/2002 10:08:00 AM PDT by newgeezer
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To: newgeezer
The point I was making is that the Tenth Amendment should be obeyed.

The Federal government has taken over the governing of the domestic lives of American citizens. It has become a smothering, corrupt bureaucracy that stifles experimentation and initiative.

State governments were intended to govern our domestic affairs, with the exception of a few enumerated powers given to the central government.

Like the radio ads say, "Our diversity is our strength":)

56 posted on 04/08/2002 10:37:58 AM PDT by Ken H
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To: VoodooEconomist
I've come to believe that the vast majority of people here use FR to let off steam ... and they like to hear themselves sound "patriotic." I've also discovered that many here who call themselves conservative really are nothing of the sort. They are neo-conservatives.

Great post and link. You may be aware that I have spoken out against our immigration "free for all" since coming to the FR about fours ago. Since then, a few on the FR attempted to distract and divert what I, and a few others were saying by using works like nazi and racist etc.

It was an attempt to put a stick through the spokes of the topic and issue, to paint those who spoke out in a very bad light.

Yes, I and a few others have vented steam regarding this titanic issue, but I believe it did some good, as now, those nasty, ugly accusation have all receded and almost disappeared. I believe this venting of steam and debate on this most dangerous issue caused many to become aware and see beyond the smoke and distractions.

However, as we all talk, vent steam and debate these issues, the ever reaching arm of socialist, big government, monster, like the immigration "free for all" will eventually consume our freedoms, our sovereignty, and our entire nation.

57 posted on 04/08/2002 10:59:32 AM PDT by Joe Hadenuf
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To: Ken H
Right you are. Thanks for the clarification.

So, as I started to say before:

Whereas...

  1. the Supreme Court has shirked their responsibility to enforce Amendment X,
  2. Congress has shirked their responsibility to impeach SCOTUS judges,
  3. the sheeple know or care nothing about the Constitution, and
  4. the sheeple love their incumbents in Congress,
...what's left to do, if not secession (been there, tried that, the sheeple had other ideas) or revolution?
58 posted on 04/08/2002 11:27:04 AM PDT by newgeezer
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To: B. A. Conservative
Whether we go with secession of fix the existing government, there are a few things everyone can do with their own lives to ensure liberty survives:

Separate from the corrupting pop culture (movies, videos, rock music, pornography, etc.) Reject it, Walk away from it. Everytime a movie ticket is bought, a video rented or purchased, part of that money goes to the DNC, our enemy.

Separate your children from the pop culture.

Place your children in a home school program. Pull them out of public schools, NOW.

Get out of debt. Tear up the charge cards and credit cards. Pay them off and don't allow any interest charges. Only pay cash for a good used car, if a car is needed.

Study the Constitution. Pass the insights and information along to others.

I'm sure there are other things which can be added to this list. I heard these action items at a conservative meeting a couple of years ago. They make sense to me. It's going to take self discipline and sacrifice if this country is going to be turned around or if we secede.

59 posted on 04/08/2002 12:48:18 PM PDT by CWRWinger
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To: B. A. Conservative
Short answers (I'll give fuller explanations on the individual threads):

Is the United States broken? Yes.
If it is broken, can it be fixed? Yes.
If it can be fixed, how long will it take? Best guess; 14 years.
Who will fix it? Us and like-minded people.
Will there be opposition to fixing it? Definitely
Can the opposition be defeated within a reasonable period of time? IMHO, "reasonableness" is not something to be considered in terms of length of time. See my answer to the following, linked question.
How long is reasonable? As short as it takes; I would like to enjoy some semblance of liberty in my lifetime, and the longer I can enjoy it, the better.
How realistic are your expectations about whether it can be fixed? No better than 1 to 3 odds, but we must try.
How realistic are your expectations with regard to time? Hopefully, I'm realistic. It will take 8 unbroken years of conservative leadership (not just conservatism, and not just leadership) to get us to the point where freedom has a chance. IMHO, so long as this world exists, we will never cease to be under assault.
If it can't be fixed, have you considered other solutions regarding your disappointment with the present state of affairs in the United States? I've started to.
Could other countries offer the freedom you seek? Possible, but unlikely
Are there other existing countries that offer more freedom than what is currently offered in the United States? There used to be. Australia was once another beacon of freedom.
If one state were to secede and offer a Constitutional Republic like the one we had, would you consider living there? When do I move?
How would the United States respond to one state's elective and voluntary peaceable declaration of its own independence from the United States? Completely dependent on 2 factors; which state it is (they might let a state where there is no major economic or military presence go) and who is in charge.
Would the United States be willing to use military action including the killing of peaceful secessionists? You betcha.
If a Boris Yeltsin took a stand in the state capitol, would the United States send in the tanks and kill him and/or his compatriots? If the right kind of leader is in DC, and the state is not economically or militarily vital to the US, no. Otherwise, yes.
If the United States were actually willing to use force to surpress a state's secession, would you still want to live in the United States? I hate to use the word "depends", but it depends on why that state is leaving. If it were for Constitutional reasons, I'd seek to bail on the US. If it were to set up a system of government that further violated the principles of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, I'd stay in the US.
Would that be the final straw proving to any "doubting Thomas"es that the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States are now empty meaningless words that no longer have validity as ideas? No more than the current body of evidence is the final straw to the doubting Thomases.
Would this be the proof to some that the United States is now no different from any other form of tyranny? I've already seen enough to know that the US is a tyranny. See above for whether I think that this specific act would convince any of the sheeple.
If one state successfully and peaceably seceded, would others follow? Yes.
Would we see groups of states organizing as regional republics competeing for citizens by offering more freedom than their neighboring nation/states? This is an intriguing idea, one that would appeal to us, but I don't quite see too much competition in this arena.
Could our freedoms and liberties be restored more certainly and more quickly by forcing governments to compete with one another in an effort to please its citizens and/or prospective citizens? Nice idea, but there's too much other stuff on the buffet table for this to work.
Does the United States have a monopoly on government? No, but it does have supremacy.
Is the military superiority that the United States possesses over the rest of the world sufficient reason for its citizens to sacrifice their freedoms in the interests of security? Hell no.
Could the military strength and superiority of the United States be obtained through the equivalent of a North American Nato? Probably
How can we restore our freedoms without secession? The only way is a systematic and sustained election of those who believe in following the Constitution.

60 posted on 04/09/2002 11:41:39 AM PDT by steveegg
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To: B. A. Conservative
War is coming. It is best to abandon our illusions and prepare for it. We're past the point of debate. We cannot and will not be able to vote or talk our way out of it. It is not a matter of if, it is merely a matter of when. 09/11 altered the timetable somewhat, and it did have the beneficial effect on some folks akin to that of a bucket of ice water in the face. But it didn't take long for the rats and the vermin to crawl back out from under their rocks, agendas and intent intact.

War is coming. Some may prefer to remain passive until the conflict reaches them. Others may prefer a more proactive approach, especially with respect to certain anti-American, anti-Constitutional apparatchiks, i.e., the politicians who believe that they rule with impunity.

War is coming. The Republic will be restored on the graves of traitors, patriots and innocents alike. Perhaps we'll learn something this time around.

61 posted on 04/09/2002 3:44:58 PM PDT by Noumenon
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To: Noumenon
War's already here.

It's just that day to day lowgrade kind of a thing. One things for sure though, it's going to get a lot uglier.

Regards,

L

62 posted on 04/09/2002 3:57:28 PM PDT by Lurker
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To: Cultural Jihad
Isn't the awkward stage quote from Claire Wolfe?
63 posted on 04/09/2002 4:01:10 PM PDT by Jim Noble
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To: Wolfie
"Most folks aren't looking for freedom, that would mean others are doing things they don't like. They just want a tyranny to their liking."

no replies to that statement? I think you hit it out of the park.

64 posted on 04/09/2002 4:13:33 PM PDT by the-ironically-named-proverbs2
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To: Noumenon
"War is coming. It is best to abandon our illusions and prepare for it. We're past the point of debate"

Amen! Thanks for getting to the real issue: Where is the question on the list relating to "preparations"?

Of course, with your having peeled back the layers of feel-good crap to get at the core of the issue, the dramatic PC change in the FR landscape over the past couple of years will now dictate the deletion of this thread.

65 posted on 04/09/2002 4:20:58 PM PDT by SuperLuminal
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To: Wolfie
"Most folks aren't looking for freedom, that would mean others are doing things they don't like. They just want a tyranny to their liking."

That's eminently quotable - may I quote you for attribution? That's more truth than some people - most people - want to hear. That's also why we're going to be fighting in open warfare before too much longer.

66 posted on 04/09/2002 5:58:52 PM PDT by Noumenon
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To: SuperLuminal
God forbid that anyone spoil the party, eh? Don't mind that elephant there in the living room....
67 posted on 04/09/2002 6:06:39 PM PDT by Noumenon
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To: Lurker
It's just that day to day lowgrade kind of a thing. One things for sure though, it's going to get a lot uglier.

Folks have no idea. Few of us have learned anything from history. Maybe this time...

68 posted on 04/09/2002 6:08:47 PM PDT by Noumenon
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To: VoodooEconomist
To be honest, I was devastated by the sentiments expressed by an overwhelming number of people post-9/11. I couldn't believe these were the same people who earlier were preaching against a coercive State and claimed to be promoters of Liberty.

I felt (and feel) exactly the same way. I concluded, sadly, that the only difference between them and the liberals they railed against was the ends, not the means. It showed to me what a truly tiny portion of the population really cares or believes in the idea of the power of the individual and the right of the individual to be free.

We are not free, and we are becoming less free as time passes. Our freedom is an illusion, kept in place both externally, by the government/media, and internally by the small prosperity of the masses making them reluctant to rock the boat.

I suppose the main reason I stay here is that it is a good source for news that is hard to get otherwise. It's sort of like being able to watch the Titanic go down without having to actually be on board.

Tuor

69 posted on 04/09/2002 7:06:27 PM PDT by Tuor
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To: B. A. Conservative
Is FreeRepublic just a support group (form of group therapy) for burned-out or recovering conservatives much like the function served by AA for alcoholics?

1. We admitted that we were powerless over politics, and that our country had become unmanageable.

2. We came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us and the US to sanity.

3. We became willing to turn our lives, our nation, and our will over to the care of God as we understood him.

Sounds about right...many of us are taking inventory as we speak...

70 posted on 04/09/2002 7:12:57 PM PDT by Dakotabound
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To: Noumenon
Quote away, attributed or not. It needs to be said more often, not that it will sink in with the people most in need of understanding it, but what the heck.
71 posted on 04/10/2002 4:15:59 AM PDT by Wolfie
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To: B. A. Conservative
America has become a nation of sheep, tended by wolves. As long as the wolves only take one sheep at a time, the herd remains content. As long as the herd has their TV and government cheese, it will not care if the wolves take a sheep every now and then. By the time the herd realizes the danger, it will already be at the slaughterhouse.
72 posted on 04/10/2002 10:24:36 AM PDT by aomagrat
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To: Ken H
It's Time to Part Company
73 posted on 04/10/2002 10:59:08 AM PDT by B.O. Plenty
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To: Noumenon
War is coming. The Republic will be restored on the graves of traitors, patriots and innocents alike. Perhaps we'll learn something this time around.

Perhaps, but does it have to be that way?

In previous centuries, probably so. But let's look at the two great victories for tyranny in the previous century: The New Deal, and the cultural revolution of the 1960's.

In neither case did the opponents of liberty have to resort to open warfare (at least on a large scale). Instead, they used political and social means to attack freedom. Yet they were still incredibly successful in radically altering the character and direction of America.

Instead of thinking about guerrila war and insurrection, maybe we should study those two movements and use elements from them in our counter-offensive.

74 posted on 04/10/2002 1:19:52 PM PDT by timm22
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To: Wolfie

"Most folks aren't looking for freedom, that would mean others are doing things they don't like. They just want a tyranny to their liking."

Bang!

Dead on target!

That is one of the most profound statements that I have ever read on this forum.  It applies to many who call themselves conservative, as well.

 

75 posted on 04/10/2002 2:38:28 PM PDT by Action-America
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To: B. A. Conservative
The US is beyond hope. A revolution of the likes not see before is the only remedy.
76 posted on 04/12/2002 11:35:47 AM PDT by deadrock
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To: Action-America
The majority of those who call themselves conservatives wouldn't recognize one if they tripped over him/her. Self responsibility in 100% of your life is too frightening for them to even consider.
77 posted on 04/12/2002 11:43:23 AM PDT by B4Ranch
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To: JohnGalt
... the Industrial Age is coming to an end ... in favor of a borderless Information Society

This is the siren song to some form of global communism. I'm not putting it down, just being candid.

78 posted on 04/12/2002 12:01:23 PM PDT by apochromat
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To: B. A. Conservative
Destructor will go out kickin'! My gear is packed, and my powder is dry.
79 posted on 04/12/2002 12:07:15 PM PDT by Destructor
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To: apochromat
I disagree, but you are most likely a paleo-Conservative and thus we should disagree. Paleo-cons just have trouble determining when the Old Right ended, when it ended with the settling of the frontier. The new frontier is unlimited bandwidth and while it is not as romantic as the Wild West, it cannot be controlled by Washington DC or any other centralized 'government.'
80 posted on 04/12/2002 12:17:45 PM PDT by JohnGalt
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To: JohnGalt
What do you think that a "borderless Information Society" will look like? Will robots do all the physical labor?
81 posted on 04/12/2002 1:04:39 PM PDT by apochromat
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To: JohnGalt
I'm not sure if I'm old enough to be a "paleo-con", but I've read a lot of science fiction. Would you have a global governance to go with that borderless Information Society, are are you just going to let the Society of Boderless Information run things informally?
82 posted on 04/12/2002 1:19:27 PM PDT by apochromat
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To: apochromat
I meant: Would you have a global governance to go with that borderless Information Society, or are you just going to let the Society of borderless Information run things informally?
83 posted on 04/12/2002 1:22:33 PM PDT by apochromat
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To: apochromat
Ahh, understood. For example:

Localities would compete for citizens; governments would treat its citizens as customers rather than inmates. Citizens would choose localities that met their values but provided a competitive return on cost.

The best in each field, doctors for instance, will no longer be bound by the tyranny of location as they will be able to preform operations remotely with automated surgical rooms (GE has already created the machines.)

Out-sourcing with no geographic boundries will replace large firms with large staffs.

Just a few ideas of the changes that await...but will it be a peaceful transition or a violent one.

84 posted on 04/12/2002 2:00:16 PM PDT by JohnGalt
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To: Wolfie
Your quote is quite profound!!!!


I have got my eye on you waiting on the next pearl !!

Eaker

85 posted on 04/12/2002 2:36:28 PM PDT by Eaker
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To: B. A. Conservative
God bless America. Looks like we're in the end times. We're in His Hands.
86 posted on 04/12/2002 2:38:29 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy
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To: aomagrat
America has become a nation of sheep, tended by wolves. As long as the wolves only take one sheep at a time, the herd remains content. As long as the herd has their TV and government cheese, it will not care if the wolves take a sheep every now and then. By the time the herd realizes the danger, it will already be at the slaughterhouse.

Your message is worth posting again. You express my sentiments exactly!!!

87 posted on 04/12/2002 3:08:58 PM PDT by EverOnward
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To: JohnGalt
What about having global intellectual property rights?
88 posted on 04/12/2002 5:39:23 PM PDT by apochromat
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To: tacticalogic
Why are you attributing quotes by Claire Wolfe to Che Guevera?

Because he's a veteran liar and state propagandist.

89 posted on 04/12/2002 5:44:02 PM PDT by DAnconia55
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To: B. A. Conservative
This discussion is hopefully headed toward finding and defining Galt's Gulch. Those that have not read Atlas Shrugged, should.

It's easy to find. Just go outside on a clear night, and look up....

90 posted on 04/12/2002 5:46:21 PM PDT by DAnconia55
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To: ImpBill
I don't believe in a violent resistance.

Then you believe in being a slave.

91 posted on 04/12/2002 5:49:29 PM PDT by DAnconia55
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To: Wolfie
Most folks aren't looking for freedom, that would mean others are doing things they don't like. They just want a tyranny to their liking.

From the moment there is more than one individual in a "society", that is always the case. It has always been so and always will be.

92 posted on 04/12/2002 5:50:58 PM PDT by Texasforever
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To: newgeezer
So, as I started to say before:

Whereas...

We could actually dust off the list of grievances against King George and use some white-out.
Replace "King" with "President", and we'll have a pretty good working document...

93 posted on 04/12/2002 5:52:40 PM PDT by DAnconia55
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To: Texasforever
It has always been so and always will be.

I have never wanted such a thing.

94 posted on 04/12/2002 5:58:19 PM PDT by DAnconia55
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To: DAnconia55
Maybe you could write a book that changes the future for the better, by using profoundly accurate projections combined with incisive logic. That might have a better chance.
95 posted on 04/12/2002 6:00:01 PM PDT by apochromat
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To: DAnconia55
I have never wanted such a thing.

Sure you do. You just want the tyranny of the minority instead of the majority.

96 posted on 04/12/2002 6:02:54 PM PDT by Texasforever
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To: apochromat
Not sure you need a central government to protect 'intellectual rights;' that is a logical disconnect I can not make.
97 posted on 04/13/2002 7:51:25 AM PDT by JohnGalt
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To: JohnGalt
Not sure you need a central government to protect 'intellectual rights;' that is a logical disconnect I can not make.

I don't know. I was referring to intellectual property rights on the "borderless information". There's already a global organization for that. I believe it's called the WTO. Some countries don't belong to it, however. Would you say that the WTO is not a form of government?

98 posted on 04/13/2002 10:19:28 AM PDT by apochromat
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To: apochromat
More realistically, people would choose to collect royalties through usage (say half a penny every time you read an on-line article from the Washington Post) before they would contribute to a central body like the WTO to enforce copyright protection.
99 posted on 04/13/2002 12:17:46 PM PDT by JohnGalt
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To: B. A. Conservative
My thoughts are........The general population of the US finds that even thinking about depriving their families temporarity of security is just too horrible to consider. The man of the family refuses to discuss this subject with his friends at work because he will be labeled "weird". America will follow the route of the Jews in Germany, a small group will cause tremendous difficulties for the globalist enforcement group while the masses will quietly board the trains to their assigned positions.
100 posted on 04/14/2002 7:36:01 PM PDT by B4Ranch
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