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Would The World Be better Without Religion
Gregg Easterbrook

Posted on 04/11/2002 2:47:21 PM PDT by catonsville

Tangents Gregg Easterbrook

Would the World Be Safer Without Religion? Faith makes people want to kill each other--from Israel to Northern Ireland, to Afghanistan and back

Israelis and Palestinians are killing each other by the hundreds in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. Hindus and Muslims are slaughtering each other in India, herding neighbors into house or trains then setting them afire. Catholics and Protestants continue to kill each other in Northern Ireland. Sunnis and Shias have their arms wrapped around each other's throats throughout the Islamic world. And of course, on Sept. 11, 19 Muslims were so determined to murder helpless Christians and Jews that they were willing to die to shed the blood of other religions. Not a terribly good reflection on faith, is it? If religion makes people want to murder each other, maybe religion is bad for the world. Religion has certainly been bad for history. In recent decades alone, Hindus and Sikhs have been slaughtering each other, blowing up airliners and firing artillery shells into temples. In the fighting over Sri Lanka, Tamil Hindus have fired machine guns at school buses full of Sinhalese Buddhist children, and the Buddhists in turn have firebombed Hindu schools.

Thousands of Chinese grew up as orphans because their Buddhist parents were murdered during World War II at the urging of Shinto priests. Looking further back, huge numbers of Eastern Orthodox Armenians were murdered by Muslims at the turn of the century. Much of Europe's history has been a nightmare of Christian-on-Christian killing, including the 30 Years' War, in which an estimated 7.5 million people--one-third of the European population at the time--died owing to Catholic-versus-Protestant slaughter. England's history is full of Protestants murdering Catholics; France's history is full of Catholics murdering Protestants; Spain's history is full of Christians murdering Jews. Pretty much all of Europe is to blame for the Crusades, in which Christians murdered Muslims. This inventory could go on at considerable length. King Olaf Tryggvason's declaration from about the year 1000--"all Norway will be Christian or die!"--sums it up. So is faith bad? The fact that religions preach love, but often generate violence, cannot be dismissed as a minor imperfection. And if you talk of mere hatred--as opposed to all-out killing--the accounting is even more horrifying. Many faiths and denominations have throughout history dedicated themselves to hating other faiths and denominations. About 100 years ago, to cite one of many examples, Protestant denominations called the Pope the Whore of Babylon, while Pope Leo XIII declared Protestants "enemies of the Christian name." Sunnis and Shias have been denouncing each other since just a few years after the Prophet Muhammad died. The Eastern Orthodox church has in its past denounced Catholicism as a false religion. In 1997, a small group called the Union of Orthodox Rabbis declared that the Conservative and Reform movements of Judaism are "not Judaism at all." Intrigue among Buddhist and Shinto sects have led to much violence.

Considering this bill of attainder, it could be awfully tempting to turn away from religion as a retrograde or divisive influence. This seems to be the view in Europe, where rates of religious observance have been in sharp decline for a century. Today, just 10 percent of the citizens of the European Union regularly attend worship services of any faith; in the United States, the comparable figure is a little more than half. Europeans seem to be aware of the bloodshed that faith has cost in the past--religious killing has been comparatively rare in the United States, probably a reason observance remains relatively high--and to be saying, "To hell with it." Killing in the name of God or belief, which shames every religion, ought to give the person of faith pause. But should it cause us to abandon faith?

Would the world be better off if religion disappeared? Some people would say yes, and since it's impossible to conduct this experiment, as faith is definitely not going away, we can't be sure. But when we observe the horror of religiously motivated violence or hatred, maybe the correct question is, Without religion would it be even worse? What's really underlying many "religious" disputes is ethnicity, money, and national distinctions, factors that would exist regardless of whether anyone had ever heard the word "God." The fighting in Israel today, for example, is not primarily about religion--Jews, Muslims and Christians have coexisted fairly peacefully in that area for most of the last 1,300 years. Until recently, the Holy Land fighting was mainly about land, and whom it's been promised to. Palestinians hated Israelis because they viewed them as oppressors, not because they were Jews--although that hatred has turned lately to anti-Semitism. Israelis hated Palestinians because they viewed them as terrorists, not because they were Muslims--although, lately the hatred has turned anti-Muslim. If the land dispute could be resolved, the religious dispute would rapidly fade to secondary or tertiary status--though ethnic tensions pitting Ashkenazim and Sephardim against Arabs might drone on.

Similarly, the tension between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland has a religious component, but its essence is class-based and nationalist. Protestants in Northern Ireland tend to be well-off and Anglophile; Catholics, to be working class and to want the Brits out. Suppose religion vanished tomorrow morning, and these two groups divided themselves by arbitrary labels that had nothing to do with faith. Let's say one position was arbitrarily designated "Orange" and the other "Green." Do you think the conflict would instantly end? No, it would continue as before, if not worsen, since Christianity--both Catholicism and Protestantism--would no longer be present to urge each side to love its neighbor. Similar ethnic, class, and nationalistic disputes underlie pretty much every fight that looks on the surface to be about religion. Suppose the Christian and Islamic faiths vanished. Sept. 11 might still have happened. Within the Arab world, where many resent the West, violent fanatics might have vowed to kill themselves solely on secular grounds. Indeed, it can be argued that since the mass murderers of Sept. 11 openly violated the Quranic prohibition against killing the innocent, they weren't true Muslims anyway. What they were was terrorist fanatics. And a certain number of people like this would exist in the world whether religious faith existed or not. Men and women of all faiths must feel deeply chastened about the continuing violence in the name of religion. We ought to feel the very worst about violence, or hatred, perpetrated by those who say they believe what we believe. But this does not mean we should give up those beliefs. Rather, we must work to make belief sincere. Only then is there a chance the violence will stop.


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: religions; violence
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Interesting article. I believe violence is in our genes, as well as our morality. Held back by our sense of right and wrong and fear of punishment. But given the right conditions , I believe we all can be murderers. Religion has lead to violence , but it has also helped to contain it. And looking at societies that actively condoned anti-religious activity in the 20th century,(China, Russia, etc) religion was far less harmful
1 posted on 04/11/2002 2:47:21 PM PDT by catonsville
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To: catonsville
"Would the World Be Safer Without Religion?"

Probably not. But, throughout history, religion has been the leading cause of death among humans.


2 posted on 04/11/2002 2:50:04 PM PDT by Bloody Sam Roberts
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To: catonsville
People obey law and restrain their evil out of fear of punishment not generally of religion.
3 posted on 04/11/2002 2:50:06 PM PDT by weikel
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To: catonsville
"Faith makes people hate each other" What a truck load of crap this is...Let me repeat what I heard a very wise Evangelical pastor once say about Religion, "it is man's failed attempts to reach up to God through his own futile efforts" However, a Relationship with God is possible through Jesus Christ Romans 6:23 "For the penalty of sin is death, but the FREE gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord"
4 posted on 04/11/2002 2:50:29 PM PDT by princess leah
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
Hmmmm thats true if you consider Marxism a religion( which I do due to its requirement for blind faith and intolerance of other religions).
5 posted on 04/11/2002 2:51:02 PM PDT by weikel
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To: catonsville
it has also helped to contain it

Similar to the rise of the legal system[s]. Blackwood says that we choose to live in society, and in so doing we give up some freedom. If we each exercised total freedom, we would quickly run into other people who were also exercising total freedom.

6 posted on 04/11/2002 2:53:33 PM PDT by RightWhale
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
A popular but untrue sentiment. Check your history book again. Far more people have suffered at the hands of atheist regimes than religious, primarily in this century. While the number of incidents might lead one to believe that religion has caused the most deaths, a focus on the actual numbers will prove my point.
7 posted on 04/11/2002 2:56:30 PM PDT by watchin
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To: catonsville
If the fall is really true, that would explain the killer instinct. People need religion; absent any religion, they would invent their own.

It is hard to imagine a world without religion. The atheists would have it that way; but in a way they have a religion, science and reason. So we're back to square one.

Most intelligent people would agree that much of religion and behavior motivated by religion is a scourge of the planet.

8 posted on 04/11/2002 3:00:07 PM PDT by Aliska
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To: watchin
Ideology/religion promotes hate--self righteousness/hypocrisy...Truth promotes love-sacrifice!

Two opposite--different things!

9 posted on 04/11/2002 3:03:08 PM PDT by f.Christian
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To: catonsville
Without religion the author would Gregg Spring-holidays-brook.
10 posted on 04/11/2002 3:05:03 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: RightWhale
"Blackwood says that we choose to live in society, and in so doing we give up some freedom. If we each exercised total freedom, we would quickly run into other people who were also exercising total freedom."

A concept that doesn't play well with (L)ibertarians.

...as I dive for the nearest cover...

11 posted on 04/11/2002 3:06:18 PM PDT by A Navy Vet
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
Probably not. But, throughout history, religion has been the leading cause of death among humans.

Probably not. But, throughout history, religion has been the leading EXCUSE FOR death among humans.

Murder in the name of God violates at least TWO commandments, not only the 6th but also the 3rd. All of this usually as a mask for the 10th.

12 posted on 04/11/2002 3:07:45 PM PDT by c-five
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To: catonsville
Conveniently, this writer has left out the anti-religion regimes of the 20th century.

While we're at it - let's get rid of all knives. Knives certainly have killed millions and millions of people throughout the ages. The world would be a much better place without such medieval devices.

13 posted on 04/11/2002 3:08:36 PM PDT by JH147
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To: catonsville
In the end wars are always about resources.
14 posted on 04/11/2002 3:08:53 PM PDT by pbear8
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To: f.Christian
I agree ... but for the atheist/agnostic/objectivist/etc. telling them that there's a difference between true Christianity and merely the "form of religion" is an exercise in futility. It sounds to them like feeble excuse-making.
15 posted on 04/11/2002 3:08:55 PM PDT by watchin
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To: catonsville
"Would The World Be better Without Religion?"

Organized religion? - Possibly
Faith - no.

16 posted on 04/11/2002 3:09:16 PM PDT by A Navy Vet
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To: catonsville
You know I find it very strange indeed that so-called knowledgeable writers would even make a statement like this.

For my "religion" is the relationship I have with God. This argument is akin then to saying "wouldn't the world be better off without God?".

Poor soul doesn't seem to realize that nothing, absolutely nothing, happens in God's world by mistake.

17 posted on 04/11/2002 3:09:26 PM PDT by txzman
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To: catonsville
Maybe I have a short memory, but it seems to me the only time that organized and/or fanatical religion has been a problem is when we have a government based on one religion. That was the problem in 1776 with forced religious observance in England; it's a problem today with the religious zealots controlling certain governments. The U.S., I think, has the best model for the opportunities of the people.

Separate religion from governance.

18 posted on 04/11/2002 3:09:59 PM PDT by Real Cynic No More
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To: drstevej
nyuk, nyuk, nyuk
19 posted on 04/11/2002 3:10:13 PM PDT by watchin
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To: catonsville
God cares.
20 posted on 04/11/2002 3:10:51 PM PDT by onedoug
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To: A Navy Vet
A concept that doesn't play well with (L)ibertarians

I was a Libertarian until the day I realized that driving a truckload of chicken manure to the market to barter groceries was simply not the best system.

21 posted on 04/11/2002 3:14:48 PM PDT by RightWhale
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
religion has been the leading cause of death among humans.

False. Look at the slaughter committed by the communists. That far excedes anything done in the name of religion.

a.cricket

22 posted on 04/11/2002 3:15:31 PM PDT by another cricket
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To: catonsville
Non-religious ideologies were stronger and more destructive in the 20th century. Religion was seen as a bulwark against destructive materialism -- whether totalitarian and utopian, technological or economic.

The question now is where we are going. Will the future be an age of new atheistic ideologies? Or of materialistic trade and technology, with the potential for radical transformation of human nature? Or will it be a new religious age with the potential for renewed persecution and compelled conformity?

No path looks ideal. Perhaps the best we can hope for is a creative tension between the religious and the secular, which allows each some freedom, but keeps check on the extremes of both.

23 posted on 04/11/2002 3:15:46 PM PDT by x
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To: watchin
"against such(love)---there is no law"...true libertarianism!

Free will---liberty only begins with God(Jesus Saves)!

24 posted on 04/11/2002 3:15:47 PM PDT by f.Christian
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To: watchin
Right you are. All the world wars of the 18th Century were fought over nationalist issues. The Napoleonic Wars were caused by French nationalism seeking world domination. There was no world war from 1815 to 1914, a time of great religious revival in the Christian world. WWI was caused by nationalism and authoritarianism. WWII was caused by fascist regimes for nationalist goals. Germany was hostile to all Judeo-Christian religions. The Black Book of Communism estimates 80-100 million dead due to efforts to establish communist states.

Tribalism and nationalism are often mistaken for religion because different ethnicisities often have different religions. Example: during the "troubles" in Northern Ireland the flags flown by the two sides were not the banners of the Catholic Church and the protestant churches, but were the secular flags of Ireland and the U.K. It was a fight between the Irish and Scotch-Irish for domination and wealth in the north - nobody tried to convert anybody.

The main exception to my argument is Islam. Many muslims believe the Sharia requires that any "apostate," i.e. any muslim converting to another religion, be executed. Many madrassas teach that the meaning of "jihad" is the killing of non-muslims. I think nationalistic and economic reasons underly much of this, but the way many muslims speak of "jihad" and "martyrdom" is frightening.

25 posted on 04/11/2002 3:17:18 PM PDT by colorado tanker
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To: f.Christian
Belief has been, is, and will always be as crucial to mankind as the air we breathe.
26 posted on 04/11/2002 3:17:52 PM PDT by gaspar
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
And just how many abortions have been performed in the name of God?
27 posted on 04/11/2002 3:18:10 PM PDT by copwife
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To: catonsville
Religion doesn't kill people.

People kill people.

28 posted on 04/11/2002 3:18:55 PM PDT by Argus
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To: x
but keeps check on the extremes of both.

The extremes will be checked by violence when treaties break down.

29 posted on 04/11/2002 3:20:38 PM PDT by Aliska
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To: RightWhale
I was a Libertarian until the day I realized that driving a truckload of chicken manure to the market to barter groceries was simply not the best system.

HAHAHAHAAAAAA!

30 posted on 04/11/2002 3:21:09 PM PDT by A Navy Vet
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
Count again. Take the 20th Century alone. World I, World II, various Communist regimes (Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Kim Jong IL). Religion had nothing to do with the hundreds of millions who died last Century in various wars and progroms, and those numbers stupendously surpass all those killed in the name of religion in the history of man kind. States, not churches, are the most efficient mass murderers, by a long shot.
31 posted on 04/11/2002 3:21:49 PM PDT by No Left Turn
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To: catonsville
Religion combined with an oppressive government is harmful. But a just government will stop violence against the innocent regardless of the "justification".

We have luckily been free of religous violence in this country because special rights are not granted based on religion or lack of religion.

Also probably the worst killing has been done by governments that are anti-religous: for example, the various communist regimes or even the French revolution.

So if you seek peace, fight oppressive government not religion.

32 posted on 04/11/2002 3:27:35 PM PDT by MarkM
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To: colorado tanker
You are soooooooo correct in what you said. There's nothing I can add, you've summed it up wonderfully.
33 posted on 04/11/2002 3:32:24 PM PDT by constitutiongirl
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To: No Left Turn
States, not churches, are the most efficient mass murderers, by a long shot.

Very true, which is why it is imperative to keep these entities separate. Religion has only been dangerous when it has wielded state power (e.g. Saudi Wahhabism).

34 posted on 04/11/2002 3:35:11 PM PDT by delphine
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To: catonsville
It is an intellectually lazy argument.

People want cookie-cutter answers to complex problems. Assigning man's sin, crime, and destruction to specific groups makes it easier to digest, especially in the body of an article or a "soundbite".

By the way, how would this author go about ridding the world of this infection?

35 posted on 04/11/2002 3:41:31 PM PDT by sayfer bullets
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To: constitutiongirl
Thank you. I am constantly amazed by people today who smugly think that 20th-21st century-style secularism leads to peace while 19th century values, including religion, lead to war. The facts demonstrate the opposite - the secular 20th century was by far the bloodiest century in human history, while in contrast there was no world war from 1815 to 1914. I'm not saying turn the clock back, but our society could learn a lot from the Victorians who did many things right that we did wrong.
36 posted on 04/11/2002 3:46:52 PM PDT by colorado tanker
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To: catonsville
We were told that the Civil War which killed more Americans than any war was fought over black slavery. So would the world have been better w/o blacks? Gregg Easterbrook is a nutcase.
37 posted on 04/11/2002 3:49:18 PM PDT by Digger
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To: catonsville
Yes- religion is an invention of human beings. Mankind creates their own gods in their own vain images. Mankind designs their gods to serve best themselves.Religion is a hopeless madmade institution.

As a young adult I was religious. When I was 25 years old I stopped being religious and became merely a follower of Jesus. I am a Christian. I do not call myself an Evangelical, Catholic or Baptist or any other such name. Through the grace of God I am simply a Christian.

38 posted on 04/11/2002 3:52:35 PM PDT by Irish Queen
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To: catonsville
I have listened to these ignorant article. A world where nihilsm and paganism dominates (Nazism) and atheism domiantes (communsim) has killed more people in the 20th century than all of human history combined. That includes the crusades, for this effing idiot.

Now you tell me which would be better.

39 posted on 04/11/2002 3:54:09 PM PDT by KC_Conspirator
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To: catonsville
It is not religion which causes strife in the world, it is the INTOLERANCE that comes with it.

If people would just feel comfortable enough with their religion instead of so damn insecure there wouldn't be attempts to jam it down everyone else's throat, as happens with fundamental christianity, islam, to a lesser extent with catholicism, most of the protestant sects, and a lesser extent still with the oriental religions such as buddhism (hare krisna to you too).

Being concerned with the non-material side of existence a vital component to our humanity, unfortunately this spirituality gets corrupted by ego, venality, the lust for power and all the sins which our species manifests.

40 posted on 04/11/2002 4:06:15 PM PDT by chilepepper
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To: catonsville
Faith makes people want to kill each other...

Not true. Faith is merely an excuse to kill other people.

The fundamental problem is that there are some people who just want to tell other people how to live their lives.

In some cases, it's "Worship my god, or I'll kill you".

In other cases, it's "Worship me, or I'll kill you".

In other cases, it's "Don't eat/smoke that plant, or I'll kill you".

And so on.

If it wasn't Faith used as an excuse to kill, it would be something else.

41 posted on 04/11/2002 4:06:34 PM PDT by DuncanWaring
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To: catonsville
The real question is: Which religion is the one that God has revealed, and wants us to believe in? Whether the world would be "better off" with or without false religions is self-evident: Believing falsehoods doesn't do anyone any good. Whether the world would or would not be better off without the true religion is also self-evident.

The real question, then, cannot be Whether the world would be better off without "religion."

42 posted on 04/11/2002 4:11:44 PM PDT by Arthur McGowan
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To: Digger
...fought over black slavery.

Actually, it was fought to keep North America from picking up a new country.

I remind you that Lincoln himself said "If I could save the Union by freeing all of the slaves, I would do it. If I could save the Union by freeing none of the slaves, I would do that. If I could save the Union by freeing some of the slaves and leaving others in shackles, I would do that" (or something along those lines).

43 posted on 04/11/2002 4:12:30 PM PDT by DuncanWaring
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To: catonsville
Interesting article

Flawed Article.
He needs to prove that the examples he cited are religious conflicts. Are they really religious conflicts, or simply conflicts between people of different religions.
He needs to prove his dichotomy of all religions vs no religions. No devote member of a religion would consider all religions equal. Nor would they defend the actions of the other religions, in order to justifiy their own.
He needs to compare religious wars vs all wars. Is religion a major cause of war, or a rare cause.
and finally
He needs to examine all the good that religion has done vs the harm. How does the good compare to the evil.

44 posted on 04/11/2002 4:19:26 PM PDT by Sci Fi Guy
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To: delphine
Very true, which is why it is imperative to keep these entities separate. Religion has only been dangerous when it has wielded state power (e.g. Saudi Wahhabism).

Maybe so, but States don't need religion to conduct mass murder. And those that use religion to conduct muder oftentimes can't walk and chew gum at the same time, as demonstrated by Islamic regimes. They foment hatred in the name of religion, but so many resources are spent to contain and direct that hatred that all the Mideast Islamic states combined can't muster a military force to take on a country smaller than the state of New Jersey.
45 posted on 04/11/2002 4:27:13 PM PDT by No Left Turn
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
The worlrd will only be better after Jesus Christ retuens.

1Chronicles 17:21. I think this United States is this nation. It says, "WHAT ONE (ECHAD, UNITED) NATION in the earth is like thy people Israel, whom God went to redeem to be his own people, to make thee a name of greatness and terribleness, by driving out nations from before thy people, whom thou hast redeemed out of Egypt?" Jeremiah 6: 16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.

Peace,

DrMike

46 posted on 04/11/2002 4:28:30 PM PDT by STD
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
The world will only be better after Jesus Christ returns.

1Chronicles 17:21. I think this United States is this nation. It says, "WHAT ONE (ECHAD, UNITED) NATION in the earth is like thy people Israel, whom God went to redeem to be his own people, to make thee a name of greatness and terribleness, by driving out nations from before thy people, whom thou hast redeemed out of Egypt?" Jeremiah 6: 16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.

Peace,

DrMike

47 posted on 04/11/2002 4:31:41 PM PDT by STD
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To: Irish Queen
Radio Free Republic presents "Faith in Action" hosted by Michael Curtiss MD with David Ware

Radio Free Republic Thursday night April 11th 8PM CST "Faith in Action" with Michael Curtiss MD. Join us in our inaugural show when we discuss the biblical foundations of the United States of America. Call in lines are 1-886-radioFR and 1888-802-9293.

Bump this post and FReep mail me your input. Agape, DrMike

48 posted on 04/11/2002 4:33:56 PM PDT by STD
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To: No Left Turn
Maybe so, but States don't need religion to conduct mass murder.

Ahhh, I should have made myself clearer. I was attempting to imply that religion as a social force can be a brake on the excesses of a state if they are decoupled.

49 posted on 04/11/2002 4:34:09 PM PDT by delphine
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To: catonsville
religion used to justify acts of terror we dont need. the amish, very religous, dont have aggressive tendencies to conquer and kill in Gods name. Others do.
50 posted on 04/11/2002 4:38:27 PM PDT by galt-jw
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