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Taxation is Theft
sourcery | 15 April 2002 | sourcery

Posted on 04/16/2002 2:29:49 AM PDT by sourcery

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To: Cultural Jihad
If they really think that they're slaves, why don't they leave the plantation?
101 posted on 04/18/2002 12:36:19 AM PDT by Roscoe
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Comment #102 Removed by Moderator

To: Roscoe
You aren't under any obligation to remain within our society.

True. I'm also under no moral obligation to leave, whether nor not I pay taxes, and whether or not I am a citizen of any particular country.

103 posted on 04/18/2002 2:12:48 AM PDT by sourcery
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To: sourcery
We are morally enjoined to help those in need--the lazy are not in need, they are in need of instruction. Which is, of course, not to say that it is morally justifiable (though it may be) nor prudent (which I am willing to say it is not) to take from one and give to one more in need. But take care not to cut the branch out from under you.
104 posted on 04/18/2002 2:19:27 AM PDT by Pistias
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To: timm22
I know that your argument is based on morality, and not economics, but I'd like to know if you think it is possible to overcome the "free-rider" problem of voluntarily funded government services.

Morally speaking, there is no free rider problem. Here's why not:

The fact that the 'free rider problem' may make it uneconomic to achieve one's goals is not a problem in the domain of morality. The universe does not guarantee anyone that any of their goals will be realizable, or realizable at any particular cost. Violating someone else's rights is not morally justified by need, no matter how urgent.

Taxation (or whatever) cannot be morally justified by economic considerations, any more than slavery or cannibalism can.

105 posted on 04/18/2002 2:34:46 AM PDT by sourcery
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To: Pistias
It is necessary to distinguish between that which is morally required, that is which morally permitted, and that which is in one's rational self-interest. Helping those in need is not morally required. It is morally permissible. And it is in a person's rational self interest to show the same empathy for others, that one would like to experience from others. This can be seen by considering the principle of reciprocity, the power of cooperation, and the probable consequences of a complete lack of empathy or compassion in society.
106 posted on 04/18/2002 2:43:48 AM PDT by sourcery
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To: sourcery
"Taxation Is Theft"

Of course it is. It's no different than if a robber came up to you and threatened bodily harm if you didn't turn over your money. The only difference between government and the robber is the government says it's legal.

Carolyn

107 posted on 04/18/2002 2:55:03 AM PDT by CDHart
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To: sourcery
it is in a person's rational self interest to show the same empathy for others, that one would like to experience from others.

That no longer holds if one can be cruel without being seen for what one is--then it is one's rational self-interest to screw whatever poor sod's unfortunate enough to need one's help.

Helping those in need is not morally required

Things that are required incur a penalty--most often in the form of reprobation--if not done, correct? Do we not (justly) call a man cruel who gives no aid to a starving child or a person drowning in a river, especially when such aid is easily within his power?

108 posted on 04/18/2002 3:00:34 AM PDT by Pistias
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To: sourcery

So, if I create a trust out of my own property, that gives me the right to tax you?

Only if I accept being a beneficiary of the trust.

I disagree.

Based on what? You have a right to offer the trust. What supermajority has ratified it? If I don't like the terms I renounce the benifice and go my merry way.

But if you think otherwise, the tax bill for this year that you owe to the trust I've set up is $50,000, payable immediately.

What does it offer me in protection and service that I don't already have under the Constitution of the United States and what provision are in it? How am I better off?

Show us the trust document, and go through the ratification process for adoption and we'll see. Otherwise, I simply renounce your "gift" and stay with what I have, the Constitution of the United States.

I think the Founders would be shocked to discover, that their Constitution, whose purpose was to form a government for the purpose of protecting and defending the rights of the people (including the rights to Life, Libery and Property,) was in fact nothing more than a stealth taking of all property from all private individuals, with the effect that the government would be the de facto owner.

They were well aware of the extensive powers of the taxing clauses. Looking over the debates, they were quite aware of the broad extent of the Constitution's powers to tax the individual and Madison among others argued specifically to assure those powers had no boundries in amount. Interesting that they proposed and ratified it to tax as much as necessary to assure the continued survival of the nation, isn't it.

Also, I don't see any documentation from 1789 (or any time, for that matter) that actually sets up a trust such as you describe

Constitution for the United States of America:

It certainly is not a contract.

It's true that a club can set whatever conditions for membership that it wants, so long as there is nothing about those conditions that would be intrinsically wrong morally. This follows from the right to Liberty, which is the right to do whatever is not morally wrong.

Sorry the Constitution is not a Club. A measure of morality? Which measure do you intend to adopt. Christian?, Moslem?, Hindu? Jewish?, Buddist?, Zorastrian? Humanist? Agnostic?, Atheist? Communist? Third Reich? ...

Better leave it to a least a supermajority ratification of charter members to kick it off the launch pad.

sending armed men to your home and evicting you from your community, on the grounds that only members of the chess club can live in the community?

The community was established under the charter of the Trust (i.e. Constitution). Sorry your analogy simply does not fly. You are provided an all expense paid vacation at club Fed by operation of law under due process instead if you decide to stick around but don't pay the dues.

If you don't like that you may renounce membership and depart the jurisdiction.

By what right does the club do either of these things?

The Constitution is not your club. Your hypotheticals fail to meet the conditions of a ratifiable trust charter thus do not fall within the parameters of a reasonable conjecture. Quit throwing up meaningless strawmen arguments.

My problem with the US tax situation is precisely analagous to the problem you would have with the chess club in the example.

No parallel exists, your chess club is an unratifiable imaginary hypothetical strawman with no existence in reality. Anyone can construct there own tightly constrained hypotheticals all day and shoot them down. That establishes nothing more than your imaginative abilities.

Therefore, the US has no moral right to remove me from my own land

Sorry but a tax debt is as valid as any other kind of debt, if you are unable to pay such debts then a sale of property can be morally ordered under due process and there is certainly a moral right to remove from you any possessions sufficient to service a debt owed.

So my apparent continued "acceptance" of the club's rules is invalid, because it is coerced by the threat of having my inalienable right to Liberty, Free Association and Property violated (in other words, by extortion).

Again you have tried to use a strawman argument to bluff your way through.

The only threat that arose was out of your decision to not renounce citizenship and still expect to not pay the tax. Due process under the provisions of the trust charter set the ultimate and predictable result. Be current in your debts, then renounce your membership and depart, no problem other than those you have created for yourself by make illconsidered decisions in your attempt to extract more than is due you under the Trust provisions.

They certainly had the Liberty right to create a trust. They didn't, though.

The Constitution certainly is not a contract. By your own arguments and admission.

Trust or Will is all that remains. Which is it? The qualities of the Constitution are those of a charter, establishing the provisions of a Trust. Your mere assertion otherwise, is neither useful to the debate nor consistent with your own arguments.

But even if they had, they still would have no right to do what is morally wrong--

True, but the only practical measure of moral is the supermajority ratification of chartermembers.

such as violating the rights to Liberty, Free Association and Property

Such rights pertain to the charter provisions governing the protection of rights through trial and due process.

of those who don't care to be beneficiaries of such a trust

Those who don't care to be beneficiaries simple recind any protection by the trust. Sorry but that is life.

(or members of the club, which is a more accurate analogy of what actually pertains).

The strawman doesn't fly.

The only right they didn't have, was to violate the rights of others.

Shall we look then at whose rights you intrude on in attempting to demand protections as one who has renounced protections of the Trust?

What right do have as an alien to the trust to call upon the trust member's consideration or concern in jury. That certainly is an imposition on those citizens for one who has renounced participation in the provisions of the Trust. Due process is a function of the established trust. The courts and rules therefore are provided in the trust. The members operate in accord with provisions of that trust and fund those operations through the trust provisions of taxation.

When you stand outside the trust jurisdiction, you have your rights, but it is incumbant upon you to protect them.

Liberty? As long as a warlord with a bigger guns and a gang doesn't want something from you.

Property? As long as you can protect it from the wolves circling round.

Life? You might get to keep it if your strong enough, or run fast enough giving up the other two to the wolves. Then it only becomes a matter of how long you survive, knowing you cannot impose on the rights of the members of the trust.

The society you renounced owes you nothing. The wolves are always there, circling, and they care not for your "Rights" only their own personal gain.

I see the Constitution as the deed of title whereby those who voted in favor in 1789 granted certain authority to a designated agent for certain specified purposes.

And how does this concept of "deed of title" of yours differ from the charter of a trust? Descriptively I see a trust charter being described, with a name substitution which apparently pleases your fancy. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

On what resource has that agent been specifically authorised to draw on to facilitate the exercise of that authority and pay the debts and incurred costs advancing those certain specified purposes appropriately.

I will offer you a moral reason for taxation of each and every citizen;

To appraise the electorate of the true burdens of their demands for largess or more from government, that the historical imperative of Tytler may be impeded:

Sir Alex Fraser Tytler (1742-1813). Scottish jurist and historian:

Without that substantive and necessary feedback of the cost of general government operating in common, and introduced into, the life of each citizen, the electorate cannot and will not excerise due diligence or that Eternal Vigilance that is their duty and obligation to preserve Liberty, or any other rights.

109 posted on 04/18/2002 4:28:02 AM PDT by ancient_geezer
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To: jrherreid
Ookay--so, the government should just hold monthly bake sales in order to raise funds?

No - it shouldn't spend so much of our money on stupid things to start with. What is this addiction to government that so many of the people on this site have? There are only two things that government does better than private enterprise, and those are make war and destroy freedom. What is the fascination with having so much government? Kongress passes more laws every day that restrict my actions and cost me money (and that RINO Bush signs them). Does the quality of my life improve because of that? No - quite the opposite.

110 posted on 04/18/2002 4:36:07 AM PDT by from occupied ga
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To: alien
Nothing. Absolutely NOTHING! *sarcasm off*

However, it MIGHT put our rulers who art in Washington on notice that the natives grow restless and if they want to keep their cushy jobs, they'd better get on with a LONG OVERDUE AND SERIOUS DEBATE ON TAX REFORM.

Your solution is by far the easiest and the best: Do NOTHING -- and that's precisely what will happen: NOTHING! As it NOW stands, the current situation is as depicted below:

GUCCI GULCH:TAX REFORM HELL


111 posted on 04/18/2002 7:55:05 AM PDT by Dick Bachert
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To: sourcery
I'm also under no moral obligation to leave, whether nor not I pay taxes, and whether or not I am a citizen of any particular country.

Trespasser morality.

In other words, "If you won't give me a free lunch, I'll take it."

112 posted on 04/18/2002 8:37:37 AM PDT by Roscoe
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To: sourcery
By what right did a supermajority of citizens in 1789 give themselves the power to tax everyone who might ever be under the power of the US Government? I have no right to tax whomever I choose, so I cannot grant this right to others. And if I have not this right, and you have not this right, where did the voters in 1789 get this right, so that they could grant it to Congress in Article I, section 8 of the Constitution?

This is what it comes down to. It is disgusting that those who challenge you here can not understand this.

The founding fathers wrote probably the greatest document ever. However, they were short-sighted, made some errors and were naive enough to think that the vague wording of some parts would not be abused by future generations.

113 posted on 04/18/2002 8:54:14 AM PDT by FreeTally
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Comment #114 Removed by Moderator

Comment #115 Removed by Moderator

To: ffusco
"tin foil hat alert! You forgot to mention that the treasury dept is really an offshore corporation liscensd by the Fed to mint money and collect usary fees known as a sales tax-totally illegal! Also aliens are examining me rectally."

No doubt those aliens are looking for your brain! They won't find your brain, because you're obviously a Status Quo Junkie! Since you love to give the government money that you don't owe it- why don't you double up on your taxes, and pay my share too!

116 posted on 04/18/2002 10:44:03 AM PDT by Destructor
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Comment #117 Removed by Moderator

To: alien

Above you said: Constitution for the United States of America and made a link.

However, have you ever seen the original Constitution?

Yes.

What is the title of the original Constitution?

There is no Title line on the original Constitution.

Is it not "The Constitution of the United States of America"?

No that is a label applied by news outlets of the day, and in speaking of it.

What is the distinction between of and for?

The "of" reference does not exist in the Constitution, "for" does.

I take the reference from the Preamble as the only identification of the document in the actual Constitution.

Incidentally, I looked for a picture of the original Constitution which also included the title, but I couldn't find one. Perhaps you or someone else out there knows where one is and can provide a url for such???

You will never find one for there is no "Title" line on the document.

Go here for a picture of the the Constituion as it really is.

http://www.nara.gov/exhall/charters/constitution/conmain.html

Sorry No TITLE line containing "of".


 

Perhaps James Madisons discription of the Operation of the Government under the Constitution may cause you to think abit more about what the individual citizen's relationship is intended to be by the founders with respect to the National govenment ordained & established under the Constitution.

I do believe you may have been taking the descriptions of the government established under the Articles of Conferederation as being applicable to the Constitution and the government established there under.

The Constitution replaced the Articles of Confederation and instituted a profound change in the intended operation of goverment.

James Madison, Federalist #39:

James Madison, Federalist #45:

The Constitution was ratified with the above clearly stated intent foremost in knowledge and debates of the ratification assemblies and voters at large.

118 posted on 04/18/2002 12:43:48 PM PDT by ancient_geezer
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To: Roscoe
Trespasser morality.

In other words, "If you won't give me a free lunch, I'll take it."

I am not occupying anyone's property without their consent. Therefore I am not a trespasser. The same cannot be said of the thugs who would deport me, were I to take your advice.

And I am not asking for a free lunch, nor am I "taking" anything that does not belong to me. The same cannot be said of the US government.

The fact that I benefit from the existence and operation of society does not make me a thief. Nor is society a thief because it benefits from my actions, even though it does not pay for them. I cannot obligate you to pay me for the value you recieve from my actions, without your consent. You cannot obligate others to pay you for the value they receive from your actions, without their consent. If you don't like like the fact that there are those who happen to benefit from your actions, but who refuse to pay the price you demand, your only moral recourse is to refrain from doing the actions in question.

You may freely exercise your right to Liberty. If that happens to benefit others, they don't owe you anything whatsoever as a consequence, absent their prior agreement to pay.

119 posted on 04/18/2002 1:43:46 PM PDT by sourcery
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To: sourcery
And I am not asking for a free lunch, nor am I "taking" anything that does not belong to me.

Wrong.

We cannot say judicially that Kelly received no benefit from the city organization. These streets, if they do not penetrate his farm, lead to it. The water-works will probably reach him some day, and may be near enough to him now to serve him on some occasion. The schools may receive his children, and in this regard he can be in no worse condition than those living in the city who have no children, and yet who pay for the support of the schools. Every man in a county, a town, a city, or a State is deeply interested in the education of the children of the community, because his peace and quiet, his happiness and prosperity, are largely dependent upon the intelligence and moral training which it is the object of public schools to supply to the children of his neighbors and associates, if he has none himself.

The officers whose duty it is to punish and prevent crime are paid out of the taxes. Has he no interest in maintaining them, because he lives further from the court-house and policestation than some others?

Clearly, however, these are matters of detail within the discretion, and therefore the power, of the law-making body within whose jurisdiction the parties live. This court cannot say in such cases, however great the hardship or unequal the burden, that the tax collected for such purposes is taking the property of the taxpayer without due process of law.

KELLY v. CITY OF PITTSBURGH, 104 U.S. 78 (1881)


120 posted on 04/18/2002 2:14:13 PM PDT by Roscoe
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To: Pistias
it is in a person's rational self interest to show the same empathy for others, that one would like to experience from others.

That no longer holds if one can be cruel without being seen for what one is--then it is one's rational self-interest to screw whatever poor sod's unfortunate enough to need one's help.

Not so. It's not about who sees, or who knows. It's about the world in which one would like to live.

Do people only pick up trash in a park when there is someone to see? Why, then, do people do it? They do it because they know that if no one ever picks up the trash, their enjoyment of the park will be diminished. So they pick up trash, based on the rationally-justified assumption that the more people there are who voluntarily pick up trash in parks, the greater the chance that yet other people will come to realize that picking up trash is in their rational-self interest.

Uncoerced cooperation, empathy and compassion breeds more of the same--unlike the coerced variety.

The world is much more likely to resemble the way we would like it to be, if we do things that will move the state of the world in that direction. If you want to establish a social habit in the population of picking up trash, your most effective course of action is to pick up trash yourself.

Helping those in need is not morally required

Things that are required incur a penalty--most often in the form of reprobation--if not done, correct? Do we not (justly) call a man cruel who gives no aid to a starving child or a person drowning in a river, especially when such aid is easily within his power?

'A implies B' does not imply that 'B implies A.'

If the fundamental principle of morality is that one must never do anything that someone else doesn't like, then it is just as useless as a system of logic where any propostion that can be proven to be true can also be proven to be false.

121 posted on 04/18/2002 2:33:36 PM PDT by sourcery
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Comment #122 Removed by Moderator

To: Torie
The word "democracy" is not anywhere in the constitution. America is supposed to be a republic, not a democracy.
123 posted on 04/22/2002 7:09:40 PM PDT by pravo
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Comment #124 Removed by Moderator

To: sourcery
Taxation without representation is tyranny.

Which is why I always say legal aliens (like me) should be allowed to vote. I pay 40% of my income to Uncle Sam but I am not allowed to vote on how my money is spent. (Sound familiar?)

125 posted on 05/04/2002 9:29:25 AM PDT by luckyluke
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To: A tall man in a cowboy hat
Thanks. Many people seem to have a real mental block regarding the issue of the rights of the state (or the society, or the community) to do things that no individual would have the right to do.

Yes, people have the right to form groups for the purpose of achieving mutual ends (such as self-defense), but no such group has the right to require membership in the group (or payment of the membership fee), because no individual member has any such right. And no such group can rightfully claim any sort of ownership rights over a "national territory," especially when the claim includes property not owned by any voluntary member of the group. The group and its members have the right to deny you the right to enter or be on any property they presently own, but no such right can exist regarding other property--such as property you currently own.

Therefore, the country you live in has no right to evict you from your own property for refusal to pay the group membership fee. The fact that the group in question calls itself a sovereign nation (or a trust) makes no difference whatsoever.

126 posted on 05/04/2002 12:20:28 PM PDT by sourcery
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To: sourcery
Well, you tried. All the little critters came scuttling about.
127 posted on 08/17/2002 8:34:05 AM PDT by philman_36
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To: sourcery

"Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle, and quick to anger!"

Testing, 1 2 3...

128 posted on 11/03/2003 8:08:55 PM PST by sourcery ("Don't make me get my Ring!")
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To: sourcery

Summoning the usual suspects...

"Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle, and quick to anger!"


129 posted on 11/03/2003 8:22:33 PM PST by sourcery ("Don't make me get my Ring!")
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To: sourcery

"Do not meddle in
the affairs of Wizards,
for they are subtle,
and quick to anger!"

Testing 1, 2, 3...

130 posted on 11/03/2003 8:39:40 PM PST by sourcery ("Don't make me get my Ring!")
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To: sourcery

"Do not meddle in
the affairs of Wizards,
for they are subtle,
and quick to anger!"

Summoning the usual suspects...

131 posted on 11/03/2003 8:47:29 PM PST by sourcery ("Don't make me get my Ring!")
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To: sourcery

"Do not meddle in
the affairs of Wizards,
for they are subtle,
and quick to anger!"

Summoning the usual suspects...


132 posted on 11/05/2003 12:02:51 AM PST by sourcery ("Don't make me get my Ring!")
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To: sourcery

"Do not meddle in
the affairs of Wizards,
for they are subtle,
and quick to anger!"

Summoning the usual suspects...


133 posted on 11/05/2003 1:55:37 AM PST by sourcery ("Don't make me get my Ring!")
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To: sourcery
Monaco and Jersey are the weapons against theft.
134 posted on 11/05/2003 2:08:45 AM PST by armed_in_sydney
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To: armed_in_sydney
Monaco and Jersey are the weapons against theft.

sourcery says:

"Do not meddle in
the affairs of Wizards,
for they are subtle,
and quick to anger!"

Well, yes. Of course, they're a lot more accessible to the rich--I mean the real rich, the ones who don't have to work unless they happen to want to.

135 posted on 11/05/2003 2:15:51 AM PST by sourcery ("Don't make me get my Ring!")
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To: jrherreid
Ookay--so, the government should just hold monthly bake sales in order to raise funds?

Constitutionally, the government should levy tariffs on imported items. That was originally the sole source of federal funding. (The states were free to do as they pleased in regard to taxation.) Of course, that was before we fought a war to get rid of the 10th Amendment, and before we have the bloated federal monster in existence now.

136 posted on 11/05/2003 2:38:25 AM PST by ovrtaxt ( http://www.fairtax.org **** Forget ANWR. Drill Israel !)
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To: sourcery
Why are you pinging this after 1 1/2 years?
137 posted on 11/05/2003 2:41:48 AM PST by ovrtaxt ( http://www.fairtax.org **** Forget ANWR. Drill Israel !)
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To: sourcery
Bump for later reading.............

Excellent premise
138 posted on 11/05/2003 2:42:06 AM PST by WhiteGuy (Constitutionally limited Government now!)
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To: ovrtaxt
Why are you pinging this after 1 1/2 years?

I wasn't trying to draw attention to this thread. I was just using it as place to test out some html templates for posting stuff to FR. I'm sort of surprised that anyone noticed, actually.

139 posted on 11/05/2003 10:21:40 AM PST by sourcery ("Don't make me get my Ring!")
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Comment #140 Removed by Moderator

Comment #141 Removed by Moderator

Comment #142 Removed by Moderator

To: Torie

You’re mistaken in referring to our form of government as a democracy. It is a REPUBLIC; there’s a vast difference in how our rights and IF our rights are respected. Our country is being run as if it’s a democracy and that’s one of the reasons we are in such trouble. Unfortunately, our public fool system has “taught” everyone that it is a democracy for many years now and it seems to be generally accepted as fact. Even the pledge of allegiance refers to our government as a republic.


143 posted on 02/29/2012 9:23:56 AM PST by RedTulie
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