"Well-behaved women..." Opinions wanted.

iPlayOutside.com ^ | 4/16/02 | D Parks

[chriservative]

Oh come on, maybe you're not into the whole evolution idea, but the cleverness of the "DARWIN" parody on the "Jesus fish" merits some credit.

Oh, there's no doubt that its clever. The Gay flag which takes the red and white stripes from Old Glory and changes them to rainbow colors is "clever" too. But to me, its a desecration of a holy symbol and that's what ticks me off. Just like the gay flag is a desecration of our country's flag. I'm not saying people shouldn't have the right to do it (nor am I saying I don't believe in evolution). It just gets my goat a little that people make a mockery out of a symbol which means so much to other people.

[LibertarianLiz]

So, why does she have a "Green" sticker on her mini-van? Why isn't she driving some itty-bitty sub-compact to help "green" the environment and conserve energy?

[the_devils_advocate_666]

Okay, I get your point... I'll be you were not a big fan of the Jesus smoking a joint t-shirt from back in the 70s.

[the_devils_advocate_666]

You didn't notice that the "Powered by Natural Gas" decal?

[Old Fud]

"War is not healthy for children and other living things". Kind of an oldy.

[Motherhood IS a career]

Nope! The point of the bumper sticker was that SHE wouldn't be able to be holding up HER little (my Mom is Pro-choice) sign if her Mama hadn't been 'Pro-Life' in making the decision to give birth to her!

Well, the fact that her mom was pro-choice and the fact that she is, in fact, holding up her "little sign", proves that your bumper sticker doesn't have its facts straight.

You seem to be confused about what "pro-choice" means exactly. It doesn't mean pro-abortion, it means exactly what it says: Pro-CHOICE.

And what you didn't seem to get is that the woman holding up the sign was trying to tell you that her mom CHOSE to give birth to her, because she's pro-CHOICE. Get it?

Now you can mince semantics all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that people who are pro-choice want nothing more than the freedom to choose, and that includes the choice to have as many babies as they want to have. I am pro-choice, despite the fact that I couldn't even fathom having an abortion.

I'm not trying to change your convictions. But you should at least understand what your opponents' convictions are, if you're going to make an intelligent argument against them. Otherwise, you end up looking like a misguided bumper sticker.

[Artist]

I don't think you saw that in my #156 I was agreeing with you that the "Smile: your mom was pro-life" slogan is flawed. I'm assuming that your remarks in #167 were directed at SuziQ.

However, your thinking here is even more flawed:

You seem to be confused about what "pro-choice" means exactly. It doesn't mean pro-abortion, it means exactly what it says: Pro-CHOICE.

"CHOICE" is just shorthand for "pro-the-choice-to-kill-a-baby." It's easier to hide behind words than actually admit what you're doing when you're talking about child murder. And it's an old tactic.....Abortion became "choice" just as genocide of the Jews became the "final solution." It just sounds so much better.

BTW, the doctor that coined the phrase, "pro-choice" and presided over 60,000 abortions is now pro-life. Here's his story.

[Motherhood IS a career]

However, your thinking here is even more flawed...

Excuse me, but my THINKING is not flawed. Perhaps it's your interpretation that's flawed.

I think it's a bit presumptuous of you to claim to know what's going on in my head better than I do. But if it makes you feel superior to label someone who is pro-choice as an "evil baby-killer", please be my guest. Maybe the pro-choice people will start labeling you as "oppressive anti-freedom" activists. Either way, I'm not here to convince you to switch sides. I respect your CHOICE to be anti-choice.

And that's all I have to say about that.

[Artist]

"I think it's a bit presumptuous of you to claim to know what's going on in my head better than I do."

I don't have to read your mind. You told me what you think in post #167:

"Now you can mince semantics all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that people who are pro-choice want nothing more than the freedom to choose, and that includes the choice to have as many babies as they want to have. I am pro-choice, despite the fact that I couldn't even fathom having an abortion."

Since you seemingly object to my characterization of pro-choice as "pro-the-choice-to-kill-a-baby" what would you call abortion? If it's not a baby, what is it? If it's not killing, what is it? And why would you support the right of others to do something that you wouldn't "even fathom" doing yourself?

"....if it makes you feel superior to label someone who is pro-choice as an 'evil baby-killer', please be my guest."

Please point out exactly where I said that, on this thread or anywhere in the archives of FR.

"Maybe the pro-choice people will start labeling you as 'oppressive anti-freedom' activists."

Go ahead. Are there any choices that you're against? Do you support the choice of some men to rape, or some parents to beat and starve their kids? If you've answered "no" to either of those questions, I guess you can join me in the "oppressive anti-freedom" activist corner.

"Either way, I'm not here to convince you to switch sides. I respect your CHOICE to be anti-choice."

I don't respect your choice to be pro-choice on abortion any more than I'd respect your choice to be pro-choice on slavery. Some opinions don't deserve respect.

[Cian]

Well, the fact that her mom was pro-choice and the fact that she is, in fact, holding up her "little sign", proves that your bumper sticker doesn't have its facts straight.

It's a bumper sticker for God's sake not a philosphical thesis. The point it makes is fair (and funny) enough even if it isn't an entirely water-tight argument.

[Artist]

"It's a bumper sticker for God's sake not a philosphical thesis. The point it makes is fair (and funny) enough even if it isn't an entirely water-tight argument."

Some pro-lifers might find it "fair and funny," but I think that pro-aborts are just laughing at us....not with us on that.

Personally, I'd prefer, "SMILE: Your mom chose life." It makes the point, and it is water-tight. No one alive can argue with that.

[Cian]

Personally, I'd prefer, "SMILE: Your mom chose life." It makes the point, and it is water-tight. No one alive can argue with that.

Fair enough, but so what if they're laughing at us? Who cares if we're being laughed at by complete idiots. I don't think abortion is an area where 'reasonable debate' really goes anywhere. I'm sure we all have liberal friends and we may think "well they're wrong on this, that and the other issue but they're still nice people" but abortion is the one issue where I think there must be something wrong with their minds to think that it's OK.

[Cian]

P.S. I just read 170 and you hit the nail on the head every time. This 'pro-choice' aspect of the abortion debate is so inherently ridiculous (would they respect our 'choice' to shoot everyone who disagrees with us?). And as for this 'I couldn't even fathom...' business - it's so lame, classic Pontius Pilate. Even though you have completely dismantled her argument I doubt if it'll make any difference. I'll be watching to see if you get a reply...

[PLMerite]

Yeah, and where's the "Choose Death" sticker too?

My favorite is one I saw some years back:

"I eat the flesh of the living - and I vote"

This car also sported a "Choose Death" sticker...

[Artist]

"I just read 170 and you hit the nail on the head every time. This 'pro-choice' aspect of the abortion debate is so inherently ridiculous (would they respect our 'choice' to shoot everyone who disagrees with us?). And as for this 'I couldn't even fathom...' business - it's so lame, classic Pontius Pilate. Even though you have completely dismantled her argument I doubt if it'll make any difference. I'll be watching to see if you get a reply..."

Thanks, Cian. She didn't reply. They usually don't, and if they do, they're totally irrational....and often hysterical.

It's all so sad.