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What happened at Jenin - AND - Israel's "war crime"
From The Economist print edition ^ | Apr 18th 2002 | staff

Posted on 04/18/2002 8:14:41 PM PDT by Phil V.

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To: Phil V.
Hate to disillusion anybody but, 60 years after the fact, there is no such thing as a "refugee camp"; only concentration camps and, in this case, the guy doing the concentrating is named Arafat. At least, Arafat's been the guy in charge; anybody claiming that Israelis arekeeping people in "refugee camps" inside the palestinian authority zones? I mean, it appears that the main thing these people require refuge from is the logical consequences of their own gross conduct.
21 posted on 04/18/2002 9:38:39 PM PDT by medved
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To: Phil V.
Good night, muffin.

Does you wife know you cruise on the net? There is no moral equivalency for Israel to lose. They have always held the moral high ground. Except among the Euroweenie Lefties and their sockpuppets. :)

22 posted on 04/18/2002 9:42:55 PM PDT by veronica
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To: Phil V.
Isn't it funny how with 3 to 1 Israeli's in this small country, all you hear is interviews with "human rights activists, Journalists and Palestinians. It is like the Jews do not exist! But, with luck on Freeper I was able to find a short piece from an Israeli:

Major Zangen said that four of the Israeli dead in Jenin were medical officers, killed while treating the wounded. He described how a six-year-old boy ran towards soldiers carrying a bag that turned out to contain a booby trap, and said that Palestinian fighters used an elderly man and a woman as human shields during the street fighting.

"And people think we are the ones who are killing the innocent," he said. "We sacrificed our own soldiers to prevent, as much as possible, damage to civilians."

Funny how the Palestinians cry foul about the lack of medics, when just a week ago the red cresent society (Palestinian ambulance corp) were complaining that the PLO was firing on them to keep them from picking up the bodies. They depend on very short term memory don't they? Israel tried to do house to house searches and arrests here, after announcing to the world and the town 24 hours in advance that the civilians needed to leave. Now the media is repeating the Palestinians saying "we were trapped in the town, we could not leave". What is with this? Do they believe that repeating a lie erases history?

Then we got to hear 5 days of "hundreds of dead rotting in the streets!", till the media went in and found 2 for the cameras. Now it is a slaughter against...buildings. All the while the media drones a humanitarian disaster beyond belief! A "refugee camp", full of multi story stone buildings? How many Americans can afford brick houses? Sheesh. What a joke!

The media whine about how the Palestinians are going to get even more enraged and kill more Jews, but strangely, the only ones whipping up the rage ARE the media. You want the Palestinians to be free quicker, you want less death, release reporting, not retoric. But then the millions of dollars of TV time would not be generated. Why the whole media industry over here would dry up and blow away. That would be a humanitarian disaster that would release a plague of leftist reporters to spread around the world! That my friends, is a human disaster of epic proportions.

23 posted on 04/18/2002 9:52:23 PM PDT by American in Israel
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To: luvzhottea
Jenin "Family Day" party in happier times.


24 posted on 04/18/2002 9:54:45 PM PDT by Travis McGee
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Comment #25 Removed by Moderator

To: Phil V.
Phil, you realy should come visit some time. Your viewpoint would be much more balanced if you could see with your own eyes, instead of filtered with the media. Come walk in the streets of Israel, and then walk in the squalor of Bethlehem, (oh wait, they would gut and stomp you for being an American). Realize that Bethlehem was given lock stock and barrel to Arafat to control when it was a Jewish city. They did not make it a slum, it became one after Arafat got control. Notice the posters in Israel about bands, and block partys, music groups and the such, and compare them to the posters of Bin Laudin, and pictures of martyrs pasted all over Bethlehem. Listen to the Israeli's arguing how to achieve peace with safety for their children and then listen to the Palestinians argue how to kill Jews using children. Compare blown up supermarkets to blown up buildings. Both are buildings. Notice the respectful Police on the Jewish side and then watch the Palestinian police firing over the bused in riots at the Jewish police manning roadblocks on the edge of Jewish towns. Beware of PA "police" road blocks for they are known for holding Americans and others with foreign passports for the Hamas to come and kill. Notice the block partys in Israel are to celebrate religious holidays and independance day, and the block partys in Palestinian territorys are rallys to support suicide bombers. In short come get a clue.
26 posted on 04/18/2002 10:03:08 PM PDT by American in Israel
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To: luvzhottea
has caused us terrible damage to our reputation as an honest broker.

Um, you're kidding, right? Haven't you read the Arab press for the past two decades or so?

Anyway, this is a hit job on Israel. Disparate quotes making the Brigadier a "liar." Of course they left the dead in the streets on purpose - it's effective propaganda. And it worked. Let's be objective about it.

27 posted on 04/18/2002 10:05:53 PM PDT by Shermy
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To: luvzhottea
Israel should kill every one of the bastards...
28 posted on 04/18/2002 10:07:42 PM PDT by go star go
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To: luvzhottea; Phil V.
yes, the blowback will be terrible - because it was pre-arranged. All a propaganda goof.

For an Arab view of what happened in Jenin, from an Arab newspaper, check out this article:

"The Engineer"

29 posted on 04/18/2002 10:09:58 PM PDT by Shermy
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To: McGavin999
One thing the Arab street has taught Americans is that they hate our guts, so we don't have to worry about what they think anymore.

Not in most areas that is for sure. But where we have bases we need for an assualt on Iran or Iraq, we do need to worry. Check this thread out:

Marine email: 5 of us held off crowd of 3,000 at US embassy in Bahrain.

The Israeli seminar posters throw up a lot of garbage in the first 30 replies or so. Scroll down to find the freeper who sent me the email. Does seem to be real.

30 posted on 04/18/2002 10:19:23 PM PDT by LarryLied
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To: McGavin999
The Arab "street" was more than clear about what they think of us, on September 11. I'll never forget their dancing in the street. Sceeerew them all.
31 posted on 04/18/2002 10:24:25 PM PDT by iav2
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To: American in Israel
Phil, you realy should come visit some time.

. . . when the transfer is effected. . .
. . . when the walls are built . . .
. . . when the hate is a distant memory . . .
. . . when the Holy Land's people think more about the promise of tomorrow than the sins of yesterday I will visit and celebrate with you.

Stay safe, friend.

32 posted on 04/18/2002 10:27:11 PM PDT by Phil V.
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Comment #33 Removed by Moderator

To: Phil V.
"We could not leave our homes and the army refused to let any medic, Palestinian or foreign, into the camp for five days. How on earth could we remove them?"

bump...

34 posted on 04/18/2002 11:20:02 PM PDT by Demidog
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To: Phil V.
Yes there was . . . Israel's "moral authority"(or whatever remained of it intact)

And the proof is...

35 posted on 04/18/2002 11:37:28 PM PDT by BrooklynGOP
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To: Phil V.
You gonna reply to post #29?
36 posted on 04/18/2002 11:39:52 PM PDT by BrooklynGOP
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To: Phil V.
Bunk. Israel's assault on Jenin looks terrible on TV to be sure but its a model of restraint in comparison to other modern wars. No one remembers the Russian Army's razing Grozny completely off the face of the face of the earth. And Israel did not engage in ethnic cleasing. It was a precise and surgical operation. The civilian population survived unscathed. It's already forgotten by the presstitutes, but Israel would never have gone into Jenin had the PLO not been using it as a base to carry out suicide bombings in Israel. Arafat was warned repeatedly to collect arms and dismantle terrorist organizations. As it turned out he actually headed the entire terror infrastructure terrorizing Israel day and night. The people of Jenin's complaints about their suffering are misplaced and sheer chutzpah. When you shelter terrorists in your midst, you should expect to pay the price. Israel committed no war crime but sought to defend its homeland and people from assault by terrorists. Even President Bush finally appreciated Israel's need to finish the job. Hopefully the Israeli army will not need to repeat its operation in the future and this will serve as an instructive lesson to the local population on what is required from it to avoid similar suffering in the future.
37 posted on 04/19/2002 1:29:20 AM PDT by goldstategop
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To: Lancey Howard
The 1st rule of war is to win.
38 posted on 04/19/2002 1:42:04 AM PDT by weikel
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To: Phil V.
If people are still calling themselves "refugees" after fifty years and three generations, then they're in denial of the new "status quo."

The Palis should stop trying to fight a war they lost a generation ago and start trying to prove they're worthy of joining the community of nations.

39 posted on 04/19/2002 1:51:06 AM PDT by PLMerite
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To: Phil V.
Gee, I could say that the Palestinian suicide HOMICIDE bombers aren't people but are more like wild animals,
but that would be a high insult to animals everywhere...........


Chairman Arafat

Mark Steyn Link Excerpt:

Just as revealing was the reaction from the European media. In the American press, you read things like: "An observer to the bomb-blast scene described a dead young girl, perhaps 10 or 12, lying on the ground with her eyes open, looking as if she was surprised." For Europe, on the other hand, the main significance of this development was that it was "unhelpful" to the "peace process". Before I'm accused of being more upset about dead Jewish than dead Muslim kids, let me say that I take people at their own estimation: in the Palestinian Authority schools, they teach their children about the glories of martyrdom; indeed, the careers guidance counsellor appears to have little information on alternative employment prospects; at social events, the moppets are dressed up as junior jihadi, with toy detonators and play bombs. It's not that I place less value on Palestinian lives, but that Chairman Arafat and his chums in Hamas do. So does Saddam Hussein, whose government (the subject of an admiring article in this week's Spectator) gives $25,000 to the family of each Palestinian suicide bomber. So does the Arab League, which at last year's summit passed a resolution hailing the "spirit of sacrifice" of the Palestinian "martyrs" and thus licensed Wednesday's massacre. As for the "peace process", those Europeans who, just a few months ago, were urging the Americans to cease operations for Ramadan evidently feel no compunction to demand from Chairman Arafat and his dark subsidiaries any similar "bombing pause" for Passover.

In the days after September 11, we were told that Muslims had great respect for their fellow "people of the book" - ie, Jews and Christians. This ought to be so: after all, the dramatis personae of the Koran include Abraham, Moses, David, John the Baptist, Jesus and the Virgin Mary. It's one thing to believe that the Israelis are occupiers and oppressors and that the Zionist state should not exist. But no Muslim with any understanding of his shared heritage could in good conscience blow up a Passover Seder. It marks a new low in the Palestinians' descent into nihilism - though, as usual, the silence of the imams is deafening. As for the nonchalance of the Europeans, that too should not surprise us: in my experience, the Continent's Christians, practising and nominal, find the ceremonies of Jewish life faintly creepy, notwithstanding that these were also the rituals by which their own Saviour lived.

But this year, when the Christians' solar calendar and the Jews' lunar calendar have coincided and Easter and Passover fall together, it's a safe bet that George W Bush will make the connection. The first time I ever heard him speak, he spoke openly about his faith and about Christ in a way that would be unimaginable for a British politician. He will know all the details - "the baby tried to crawl away, but it died, too".......................

40 posted on 04/19/2002 2:32:05 AM PDT by MeekOneGOP
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