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Hobbes - Leviathan Quoted
Personal Archives | 04-20-02 | PsyOp

Posted on 04/20/2002 4:32:10 PM PDT by PsyOp

Words are wise men's counters, they do but reckon by them; but they are the money of fools. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.


ACTION

Men's actions are derived from the opinions they of the good or evil, which from those actions rebound unto themselves. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.


AMBITION

All men that are ambitious of military command, are inclined to continue the causes of war; and to stir up trouble and sedition: for there is no honor military but by war; nor any such hope to mind an ill game, as by causing a new shuffle. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.


COMPETITION

Competition of riches, honour, command, or other power, inclineth to contention, enmity, and war: because the way of one competitor, to the attaining of his desire, is to kill, subdue, supplant, or repel the other. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.


CONSCIENCE

A man's conscience and his judgement is the same thing, and as the judgement, so also the conscience, may be erroneous. - Thomas Hobbes. Leviathan, 1651.


CRIME

The source of every crime, is some defect of the understanding; or some error in reasoning; or some sudden force of the passions. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan. 1651.


DEATH

I am about to take my last voyage, a great leap in the dark. - Thomas Hobbes.


DEMOCRACY

In a democracy, the whole assembly cannot fail unless the multitude that are to be governed fail. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.


ENEMIES

If any two men desire the same thing, which nevertheless they cannot both enjoy, they become enemies; and on the way to their end, which is principally their own conservation, and sometimes their dedication only, endeavor to destroy or subdue one another. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

To imitate one’s enemy is to dishonor. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.


EQUALITY

The difference between man, and man, is not so considerable, as that one man can thereupon claim to himself any benefit, to which another may not pretend as well as he. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

From this equality of ability ariseth equality of hope in the attaining of our ends. And therefore if any two men desire the same thing, which nevertheless they cannot both enjoy, they become enemies; and in the way to their end (which is principally their own conservation, and sometimes their declaration only), endeavor to destroy or subdue one another. - Thomas Hobbes. Leviathan, 1651.

Nature hath made men so equal in the faculties of body and mind as that, though there be found one man sometimes manifestly stronger in body or of quicker mind than another, yet when all is reckoned together the difference between man & man is not so considerable as that one man can thereupon claim to himself any benefit to which another may not pretend as well as he. For as to the strength of body, the weakest has strength enough to kill the strongest, either by secret machination or by confederacy with others that are in the same danger with himself. - Thomas Hobbes. Leviathan, 1651.

If nature therefore have made men equal, that equality is to be acknowledged: or if nature have made men unequal, yet because men that think themselves equal will not enter into conditions of peace, but on equal terms, such equality must be admitted.... I put this: that every man acknowledge another for his equal by nature. The breach of this precept is pride. - Thomas Hobbes. Leviathan, 1651.


FREEDOM

A FREEMAN, is he, that in those things, which by his strength and wit he is able to do, is not hindered to do what he has a will to. - Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

Liberty, or freedom, signifieth properly the absense of opposition (by opposition, I mean external impediments of motion); and may be applied no less to irrational and inanimate creatures than to rational.... And according to this proper and generally received meaning of the word, a freeman is he that, in those things which by his strength and wit he is able to do, is not hindered to do what he has a will to do. - Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.


GOVERNMENT

The only way to erect such a common power, as may be able to defend [men] from the invasion of foreigners, and the inquiries of one another... is to confer all their power and strength upon one man, or upon one assembly of men... - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

They that are discontented under monarchy call it tyranny, and they that are displeased with aristocracy call it oligarchy; so also, they which find themselves grieved under a democracy call it anarchy. - Thomas Hobbes.


HUMAN NATURE

In the nature of man, we find three principal causes of quarrel. First, competition: secondly, diffidence: thirdly, glory. The first, maketh men invade for gain: the second, for safety: and the third, for reputation. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.


JUSTICE

If a man be trusted to judge between man and man, it is a precept of the law of nature, that he deal equally between them. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.


KNOWLEDGE

A lust of the mind, that by a perseverance of delight in the continual and indefatigable generation of knowledge, exceedeth the short vehemence of any carnal pleasure. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.


LAWS

The laws are of no power to protect them, without a sword in the hands of a man, or men, to cause those laws to be put in execution. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

Sovereigns are all subject to the laws of nature; because such laws be divine, and cannot by man, or commonwealth be abrogated. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

And law was brought into the world for nothing else but to limit the natural liberty of particular men in such manner as they might not hurt, but assist one another, and join together against a common enemy. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

The condition of man in this life shall never be without inconveniences,; but there happenteth in no commonwealth any great inconvenience, but what proceeds from the subjects disobedience, and breach of those covenants from which the commonwealth hath its being. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

The laws of nature are immutable and eternal; for injustice, ingratitude, arrogance, pride, iniquity, acception of persons, and the rest, can never be that war shall preserve life, and peace destroy it. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

For the laws of nature (as justice, equity, modesty, mercy, and, in sum, doing to others as we would be done to) of themselves, without the terror of some power, to cause them to be observed, are contrary to our natural passions, that carry us to partiality, pride, revenge and the like. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.


LIBERTY

The liberty of a subject, lieth therefore only in those things, which in regulating actions, the sovereign hath permitted: such as the liberty to buy, and sell, and otherwise contract with one another; to choose their own abode, their own diet, their own trade of life, and institute their children as they themselves think fit; and the like. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

By liberty, is understood, according to the proper signification of the word, the absence of external impediments, may oft take away part of a man's power to do what he would; but cannot hinder him from using the power left him, according as his judgement, and reason shall dictate to him. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

And therefore God, that seeth and disposeth all things, seeth also that the liberty of man in doing what he will is accompanied with the necessity of doing that which God will, and no more or less. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

But it is an easy thing for men to be deceived by the specious name of liberty; and, for want of judgement to distinguish, mistake that for their private inheritance and birthright which is the right of the public only. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

By liberty is understood, according to the proper signification of the word, the absence of external impediments; which impediments may oft take away part of a man's power to do what he would, but cannot hinder him from using the power left him according as his judgement and reason shall dictate to him. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

For right is liberty, namely that liberty which the civil law leaves us: but civil law is an obligation, and takes from us the liberty which the law of nature gave us. Nature gave a right to every man to secure himself by his own strength, and to invade a suspected neighbor by way of prevention: but the civil law takes away that liberty, in all cases where the protection of the law may be safely stayed for. In so much as lex & jus are as different as obligation and liberty. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

Men are freed of their covenants two ways; by performing, or by being forgiven. For performance is the natural end of obligation, and forgiveness the restitution of liberty, as being a retransferring of that right in which the obligation consisted. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

For if we take liberty in the proper sense, for a corporal liberty; that is to say, freedom from chains and prison, it were very absurd for men to clamour as they do for the liberty they so manifestly enjoy. Again, if we take liberty for an exemption from laws, it is no less absurd for men to demand as they do that liberty by which all other men may be masters of their lives. And yet as absurd as it is, this it is they demand, not knowing that the laws are of no power to protect them without a sword in the hands of a man, or men, to cause those laws to be put in execution. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.


LIFE

No arts, no letters, no society, and which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death, and the life of man solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short. - Thomas Hobbes. Leviathan, 1651.

The condition of man in this life shall never be without inconveniences. - Thomas Hobbes. Leviathan, 1651.

There is no such thing as perpetual tranquility of mind, while we live here; because life itself is but motion, and can never be without desire, nor without fear, no more than without sense. - Thomas Hobbes. Leviathan, 1651.

Nor can a man any more live, whose desires are at an end, than he, whose senses and imaginations are at a stand. - Thomas Hobbes. Leviathan, 1651.


MAN

The condition of man is a condition of war of everyone against everyone; in which case everyone is governed by his own reason; and there is nothing he can make use of , that may not be a help unto him, in preserving his life against his enemies. - Thomas Hobbes. Leviathan. 1651.

I put for a general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death. - Thomas Hobbes. Leviathan. 1651.


MONARCHY

Kings, whose power is greatest, turn their endeavors to the assuring of it at home by laws, or abroad by wars. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.


OPINION

Man gives indifferent names to one and the same thing from the difference of their own passions; as they that approve a private opinion call it opinion; but they that mislike it, heresy: and yet heresy signifies no more than private opinion. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan. 1651.


PEACE

Every man ought to endeavor peace, as far as he has hope of obtaining it; and when he cannot obtain it, that he may seek, and use, all helps and advantages of war. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan. 1651.

The passions that incline men to peace, are fear of death; desire of such things as are necessary to commodious living; and a hope by their industry to obtain them. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan. 1651.

Desire of knowledge, and arts of peace, inclineth men to obey a common power: for such desire, containeth a desire of leisure: and consequently protection from some other power than their own. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan. 1651.


POWER

In the first place, I put for a general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power, that ceaseth only in death. - Thomas Hobbes. Leviathan. 1651.

Where there is no common power, there is no law, no injustice. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan. 1651.

The passions that most of all cause the difference of wit, are principally, the more or less desire of power, of riches, of knowledge, and of honour. All which may be reduced to the first, that is, desire of power. For riches, knowledge, and honour, are but several sorts of power. - Thomas Hobbes. Leviathan. 1651.


PROMISES

Men are freed of their covenants two ways; by performing, or by being forgiven. For performance is the natural end of obligation, and forgiveness the restitution of liberty, as being a retransferring of that right in which the obligation consisted. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.


RELIGION

This fear of things invisible, is the natural seed of that, which everyone in himself calleth religion; and in them that worship, or fear that power otherwise than they do, superstition. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.


RIGHT & WRONG

To this war every man, against every man, this also is consequent; that nothing can be unjust. The notions of right and wrong, justice and injustice have no place. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.


RIGHTS

To make covenants with brute beasts is impossible, because not understanding our speech, they understand not, nor accept of any translation of right, nor can translate any right to another; and without mutual acception, there is no covenant. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, pt.I, ch.14, 1651.

As it is necessary for all men that seek peace to lay down certain rights of nature; that is to say, not to have liberty to do all they list, so is it necessary for man’s life to retain some: as right to govern their own bodies; enjoy air, water, motion, ways to go from place to place; and all things else without which a man cannot live, or not live well. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, pt.I, ch.15, 1651.

As it is necessary for all men that seek peace to lay down certain rights of nature; that is to say, not to have liberty to do all they list: so it is necessary for man's life, to retain some; as right to govern their own bodies; enjoy air, water, motion, ways to go from place; and all things else, without which a man cannot live, or not live well. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.


SEDITION

Men that distrust their own subtlety are, in tumult and sedition, better disposed for victory than they that suppose themselves wise. For these love to consult; the other, fearing to be circumvented, to strike first. - Thomas Hobbes. Leviathan, 1651.


SELF-DEFENSE

The sum of the right of nature; which is, by all means we can, to defend ourselves. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan. 1651.

A man cannot lay down the right of resisting them, that assault him by force, to take away his life. Because a man cannot tell, when he seeth men proceed against him by violence whether they intend his death or not. - Thomas Hobbes. Leviathan, pt.i, ch.14, 1651.

A covenant not to defend myself from force, by force, is always void. - Thomas Hobbes.

It is each individual that must ultimately be his own protector. - Thomas Hobbes.

The right men have by nature to protect themselves, when none else can protect them, can by no covenant be relinquished. - Thomas Hobbes.


STRENGTH

As to the strength of body, the weakest has strength enough to kill the strongest, either by secret machination, or by confederacy with others, that are in the same danger with himself. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan. 1651.


TAXES

What reason is there that he which laboreth much, and, sparing the fruits of his labor, consumeth little, should be more charged than he that, living idly, getteth little and spendeth all he gets, seeing the one hath no more protection from the commonwealth than the other? - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan. 1651.


TREATIES & ALLIANCES

Covenants without swords are but words, and of no strength to secure a man at all. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan. 1651.


VIRTUE

Now the science of virtue and vice, is moral philosophy; and therefore the true doctrine of the laws of nature, is the true moral philosophy. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.


WAR

Force and fraud, are in war the two cardinal virtues. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan. 1651.

War consisteth not in battle only, or the act of fighting; but in a tract of time, wherein the will to contend by battle is sufficiently known: and therefore the notion of time, is to be considered in the nature of war; as it is in the nature of weather. For as the nature of foul weather, lieth not in a shower or two of rain; but in an inclination thereto of many days together: so the nature of war, consisteth not in actual fighting; but in the know disposition thereto, during all the time there is no assurance to the contrary. All other time is peace. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan. 1651.

It can never be that war shall preserve life, and peace destroy it. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan. 1651.


TOPICS: Government; Miscellaneous; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: government; history; hobbes; leviathan; philosophy; politics; quotes; society
Disclaimer: the posting of quotations should not be taken as a whole-hearted endorsement of the quotes themselves. Keep that in mind before igniting any flame-throwers. ;-)
1 posted on 04/20/2002 4:32:10 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: Marine Inspector; infowars; 2Trievers; sleavelessinseattle; Righty1; twyn1; mountaineer...
I warned you.
2 posted on 04/20/2002 4:34:03 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: PsyOp
One to add under Taxes:

It is fairer to tax people on what they extract from the economy, as roughly measured by their consumption, than to tax them on what they produce for the economy, as roughly measured by their income. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan. 1651

3 posted on 04/20/2002 5:05:34 PM PDT by ancient_geezer
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To: PsyOp
bttt
4 posted on 04/20/2002 5:31:40 PM PDT by Fish out of Water
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To: ancient_geezer
Thanks for the quote. I've added it to my data base.
5 posted on 04/20/2002 5:56:41 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: PsyOp
Thanks for the warning PsyOp ... we'll not atttack the messenger!


6 posted on 04/20/2002 6:07:40 PM PDT by 2Trievers
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To: 2Trievers
I felt the disclaimer was needed after the near eruption of a flame-war over the Rouseau quotes I posted. Things settled down to a coherent discussion though. The last thing I want to see is any scorched earth on these threads.
7 posted on 04/20/2002 6:19:24 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: PsyOp

The last thing I want to see is any scorched earth on these threads.

One of the nice things about the new format breaking threads up into manageable page sizes :O)

It doesn't take a week to download the last reply in a 600+ flamewar thread.

8 posted on 04/20/2002 6:36:56 PM PDT by ancient_geezer
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To: PsyOp
I'm glad you are doing this ... you are great! &;-)
9 posted on 04/20/2002 6:58:20 PM PDT by 2Trievers
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To: 2Trievers
Thanks. Comments like that make all the tedious html coding worth it.
10 posted on 04/20/2002 7:02:04 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: PsyOp
And linking them on your homepage was good too! Carry on professor! LOL &;-)
11 posted on 04/20/2002 7:05:03 PM PDT by 2Trievers
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To: PsyOp
For as to the strength of body, the weakest has strength enough to kill the strongest, either by secret machination or by confederacy with others that are in the same danger with himself. - Thomas Hobbes. Leviathan, 1651. (emphasis mine)

The emphasized sounds like Iago's role in Othello...

12 posted on 04/20/2002 7:17:24 PM PDT by Sir Francis Dashwood
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To: ancient_geezer
It is fairer to tax people on what they extract from the economy, as roughly measured by their consumption, than to tax them on what they produce for the economy, as roughly measured by their income. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan. 1651

Sounds like he was making the case for a national sales tax or more of a flat tax. Somebody get Steve Forbes over here...

13 posted on 04/20/2002 7:25:03 PM PDT by Sir Francis Dashwood
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To: PsyOp;xm177e2;BlessedBeGod;straight on red; .38sw; 1 FELLOW FREEPER; 101viking; 1lawlady; 2Fro...
Disclaimer: the posting of quotations should not be taken as a whole-hearted endorsement of the quotes themselves.

Nor should the context be lost in relation to the totality of the work or the time in which the author had lived...

14 posted on 04/20/2002 7:30:17 PM PDT by Sir Francis Dashwood
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To: Sir Francis Dashwood
Cool.
15 posted on 04/20/2002 7:32:16 PM PDT by weikel
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To: PsyOp

And law was brought into the world for nothing else but to limit the natural liberty of particular men in such manner as they might not hurt, but assist one another, and join together against a common enemy. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

i.e., nature, culminating in the conquering of human nature--cf. C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man

16 posted on 04/20/2002 7:35:55 PM PDT by Pistias
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To: Sir Francis Dashwood; Taxman
No, this is guy you need ... Taxman! LOL
17 posted on 04/20/2002 7:38:12 PM PDT by 2Trievers
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To: PsyOp

Where there is no common power, there is no law, no injustice. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan. 1651.

i.e., there is no justice in nature, it is wholly constructed by compact.

18 posted on 04/20/2002 7:38:54 PM PDT by Pistias
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To: PsyOp
Nasty, brutish and short.
19 posted on 04/20/2002 7:39:41 PM PDT by diotima
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To: Sir Francis Dashwood
I thought you'd appreciate these.
20 posted on 04/20/2002 7:41:34 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: Sir Francis Dashwood
Nor should the context be lost

Nothing is worse than using quotes out of context. I always try to pull quote sections that show the context. And where possible, I always include a date. It never ceases to amaze me that people use quotes when they know nothing about the subject, who said it, why they said it, or when they said it.

21 posted on 04/20/2002 7:46:48 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: PsyOp
Leviathan

"But whatsoever is the object of any man's appetite or desire, that is it which he for his part calleth good; and the object of his hate and aversion, evil; and of his contempt, vile and inconsiderable. For these words of good, evil, and contemptible are ever used with relation to the person that useth them: there being nothing simply and absolutely so; nor any common rule of good and evil to be taken from the nature of the objects themselves; but from the person of the man, where there is no Commonwealth; or, in a Commonwealth, from the person that representeth it; or from an arbitrator or judge, whom men disagreeing shall by consent set up and make his sentence the rule thereof."
Ch. VI

22 posted on 04/20/2002 7:50:08 PM PDT by Pistias
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To: Pistias; Marine Inspector
i.e., there is no justice in nature, it is wholly constructed by compact.

Or, as your photo shows, "de-constructed on impact." Those free-fire zones can be a real b***h!

23 posted on 04/20/2002 7:50:41 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: PsyOp
Two words that every society since man figured out how to huck big rocks has known:

STAND CLEAR

24 posted on 04/20/2002 8:08:19 PM PDT by Pistias
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To: Pistias
a.k.a. Incoming!
25 posted on 04/20/2002 8:11:37 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: PsyOp
"It never ceases to amaze me that people use quotes when they know nothing about the subject, who said it, why they said it, or when they said it."

Welcome to modern EDUMICATION.
26 posted on 04/20/2002 8:40:30 PM PDT by conserve-it
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To: conserve-it
modern EDUMICATION

Now that's an oxymoron!

27 posted on 04/20/2002 9:17:48 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: PsyOp
OK...but I can't agree with a lot of the claptrap this guy spouted.

I guess he's some sort of liberal icon?
28 posted on 04/21/2002 7:04:43 AM PDT by Maelstrom
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To: Maelstrom
Hobbes was English. Leviathan was essentially a dissertation on the uses, and the justification for use, of state (i.e. monarchical) power. His works were well know to our founding fathers and influenced the development of our Constitution.

I have posted this thread, as well as others which you will find bookmarked at my profile page, as a resource to be used in the political discussion here at Free Republic.

As for his being a liberal icon, he's far from it. Ask any university poly sci professor and he'll probably characterize Hobbes as being right-wing. But its easy to find parallels in what he says and modern liberal thinking, just like Mien Kamp sometimes sounds like it was published by the DNC even though they like to refer to Conservatives as Nazis.

29 posted on 04/21/2002 11:41:06 AM PDT by PsyOp
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To: PsyOp
Shall we deconstruct his thinking?

It shouldn't be difficult.

Men's actions are derived from the opinions they of the good or evil, which from those actions rebound unto themselves. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

Like all over-generalizations this is overly-simplistic. In the political arena, Men's actions are derived as often out of self-interest then any opinions they have of good or evil, and even then those aren't mere opinions, they are *principles*.

All men that are ambitious of military command, are inclined to continue the causes of war; and to stir up trouble and sedition: for there is no honor military but by war; nor any such hope to mind an ill game, as by causing a new shuffle. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

Like all over-generalizations this is overly-simplistic. The United States stands remarkable as a nation with the economic an military power to crush and occupy her opponents throughout the world and fails to do so. Her ambitious military commanders mostly seek to eliminate threats to her to end a conflict, potential confict or a future conflict within their carreers or lifetimes.

And we can go on with the rest of his quotes similarly.
30 posted on 04/21/2002 12:41:15 PM PDT by Maelstrom
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To: Maelstrom
You're right. So what does that have to do with my explanation of Hobbes and why I posted his quotes? Anyone can pull a couple of quotes and point out that they're generalizations. Besides, just because something is a generalization, even an overly simplistic one, doesn't mean that there is no truth in it.

In its time Leviathan was a seminal work of political tought that exerted great influence around the western world, including here. To understand politics today, it is always helpful to know its roots, whether you agree with them or not - whether they are generalizations or not.

31 posted on 04/21/2002 12:57:20 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: Maelstrom
Her [America's] ambitious military commanders mostly seek to eliminate threats to her to end a conflict, potential confict or a future conflict within their carreers or lifetimes.

As a former Army officer you will probably not find anyone who is in greater agreement with you on this. But Hobbes quote on this point was written in 1651. At that time in history, his observation on "men that are ambitious of military command," was all too true.

Observations like this were taken into account by our founders when they were deciding on how to structure our military, and was referred to in the debates on whether we should or should not have a standing army or a simple militia.

All of these quotes must be viewed in their proper context and with an eye towards how they were viewed by or founding fathers.

Go to my profile page. There you will find links to other quotation postings. When you finish reading them all, and those I will be posting in the future, you will see the patterns of philosophical influence that resulted in this great nation.

32 posted on 04/21/2002 1:13:18 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: PsyOp
All of these quotes must be viewed in their proper context and with an eye towards how they were viewed by or founding fathers.

Hobbes and Machivelli.

I love the Founders Quotes, I have them handy in hardcopy form. I think, though, that I'll continue to slam Hobbes, I tried to show that those quotes were not only over-generalizations, but also over-simplistic and fundamentally flawed.

Let's see if another round is more successful:
Competition of riches, honour, command, or other power, inclineth to contention, enmity, and war: because the way of one competitor, to the attaining of his desire, is to kill, subdue, supplant, or repel the other. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

This broad condemnation of capitalistic systems if diametrically opposed to the actual case. Especially when it comes to competition of riches, Hobbes fails to see that this is a process for the best use of limited resources for the minimum cost in all cases. In the attainment of one's desire, it requires cooperation, communication, an agreeement of equity, and general goodwill. Without possessing these abstracts in a functional manner, one cannot compete effectively in a free market.

The source of every crime, is some defect of the understanding; or some error in reasoning; or some sudden force of the passions. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan. 1651.

Low crime may perhaps be these things, but High crimes quite often are not, these crimes consist of attempts to accumulate personal and complete power over one's fellow man. The reasoning if often sound, the understanding is malicious, and the passion has been tempered by years of following this ambition.

I am about to take my last voyage, a great leap in the dark. - Thomas Hobbes.

There is a God, and there is Life after Death.

In a democracy, the whole assembly cannot fail unless the multitude that are to be governed fail. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

A Democracy is always a failure. Masses of people are easily mislead or swayed by a charismatic leader. The old cliche that democracy is nothing more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to eat for dinner. Democracy is no panacea for Mankind's inherent fallibility, but only limiting Mankind's power over another through government can minimize the harm one does to another using government.

If any two men desire the same thing, which nevertheless they cannot both enjoy, they become enemies; and on the way to their end, which is principally their own conservation, and sometimes their dedication only, endeavor to destroy or subdue one another. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.

To imitate one’s enemy is to dishonor. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651.


No two men both become enemies, any reasonable men find equity through commerce, neither is subdued or destroyed in this manner. There is no dishonor in imitating an honorable enemy and a great deal of good can come of it. Imagine if Japan and Germany had believed this fallacy? They did not and are now among members of G-7, the rest of the world should pray to be conquored to "suffer" this result "dishonorably" according to Hobbes.

There is much much more. If Hobbes were drawn upon rather than Locke, than I rather understand why and how the Federalists were so very very wrong in their push for improved power within the Constitution. The Anti-Federalists had the correct understanding of the Constitution and should have been heeded.
33 posted on 04/22/2002 4:02:15 AM PDT by Maelstrom
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To: Maelstrom
Let's see if another round is more successful

I fail to understand what it is that you think you are trying to convince me of. Slam Hobbes all you want - it bothers me not a bit, nor is it in the least bit relevent to the reasons I stated for making the post.

The members of the Constituional Conventions drew upon the works of all those I have posted; Hobbes, Rouseau, Locke, Hume, Aristotle, Machiavelli, and many more I have not yet posted, but will in time. They drew from each of them, some more than others, in the creation of our form of government and its checks and balances.

To fully understand how our founders came to the conclusions they did, and why it is to our peril to forget those conclusions, we need to know where those ideas came from. The fact that you dislike Hobbes and feel that everything he said is wrong, does not negate the influence of Leviathan on political thought in their time.

You seem to have completely missed the point of why I posted the quotes, even after I explained it to you. I'm not trying to be snotty here, because you are obviously intelligent, but I just don't understand the point of you ripping Hobbes as if you need to convince me of something Or have I missed some point of yours?). The quotes were not posted with intention of convincing people that Hobbes was the greatest thing since sliced bread. He's not. But he is worth taking a look at. Just as it is worth reading Marx or Hilter for the purpose of understanding why their writings influenced so many - to the detriment of the world. That's called education.

34 posted on 04/22/2002 6:35:17 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: PsyOp
Only this: If the Founders Used Hobbes they made a mistake.

I feel it is the Federalists that trusted Hobbes, that helped create the stituation which allowed a government to be created that was fully capable of ignoring it's Constitutional bounds leading to the strife seen in the War Between the States and the sentiments that make a true Civil War, in the future, a very real possibility.
35 posted on 04/23/2002 4:08:35 AM PDT by Maelstrom
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To: Maelstrom
Not everything Hobbes said was an overly simplified generalization. The first quote on the list is in large text for a reason, and is one of my favorite because I see it proved on a daily basis on this forum (this is not a jab at you).

If you are going to discount Hobbes then you need to discount the Idea of the executive branch of our government. As I am sure you know, there were two compelling reasons for the creation of an executive branch, both of equal importance.

First was the need of having a national representative that could deal on equal terms with other heads of state, who, at the time, were comprised entirely of sovereign monarchs who generally acted in accordance with Hobbes' dictums. Second, there was the need to invest in a nationally elected official, the power to wage war and command our national forces into battle in a timely manner should the need arise. Even in the days when the time between the declaration of war and the first shot fired months could be (or vice-versa), the need to act without wasting time in congressional debates stood paramount to the survival of a fledgling democracy surrounded by predatory monarchs. A point that has been proven right time and time again. This was one of Hobbes' positive contributions to our government.

As for the Civil War. Lincoln was right. Davis was wrong. It was the South that couldn't abide by the Constitutional process that was on its way towards eliminating its "beloved institution". Had Davis and his cronies succeeded, The United States would not exist, and its former states on both sides of the Mason-Dixon line would be sucking hind-tit to the rest of the world or back under British colonial rule - which is why they backed the South.

36 posted on 04/23/2002 10:19:55 AM PDT by PsyOp
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To: PsyOp
As for the Civil War. Lincoln was right. Davis was wrong. It was the South that couldn't abide by the Constitutional process that was on its way towards eliminating its "beloved institution". Had Davis and his cronies succeeded, The United States would not exist, and its former states on both sides of the Mason-Dixon line would be sucking hind-tit to the rest of the world or back under British colonial rule - which is why they backed the South.

We'll forever disagree on this...I believe if Davis and his cronies had succeeded, slavery would have been abolished with a more graduated and more peaceful desegregation of the races and once that had been accomplished more of the Northern States would have seceded to join the Confederacy. The exception being the Northeast, which would have devolved into a fascist nation not unlike Hitler's Germany.
37 posted on 04/23/2002 11:59:42 AM PDT by Maelstrom
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To: Maelstrom
We'll forever disagree on this

Yes we will. Fortunately we'll never know for sure. A United States of will Always be better than a divided one. Besides, name a better country than this to live - even with its current flaws.

38 posted on 04/23/2002 1:00:52 PM PDT by PsyOp
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To: PsyOp
Yes we will. Fortunately we'll never know for sure. A United States of will Always be better than a divided one. Besides, name a better country than this to live - even with its current flaws.

The same thing could be said within Germany had the Third Reich succeeded in it's goal of world domination.

Namely, "Name a better country than this to live - even with it's current flaws."

Do us both a favor and reject this form of debate, it's unbecoming in the person I know you to be. Meanwhile, let's concentrate on the things we agree upon...government needs to be limited once again to at *least* the restricted powers promised by the Federalists.
39 posted on 04/23/2002 1:22:40 PM PDT by Maelstrom
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To: Maelstrom
let's concentrate on the things we agree upon... government needs to be limited onceagain to at *least* the restricted powers promised by the Federalists.

Agreed.

40 posted on 04/23/2002 3:06:23 PM PDT by PsyOp
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