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Jenin: the bloody truth
http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/article/0,,178-273694,00.html ^ | April 21, 2002 | Marie Colvin

Posted on 04/21/2002 10:28:29 AM PDT by RWCon

Was it a massacre? in the ruins of the refugee camp found cold comfort for propagandists on either side

THE first medical teams allowed into the Jenin refugee camp last week followed the chickens. Human senses were overwhelmed by the devastation and the stench of death, but the birds were not distracted. They were hungry. Two rusty-coloured fowl pecking away at a bundle in the street drew a Red Cross team to the remains of Jamal Sabagh.

He wasn't really recognisable to an untrained eye. His body had been lying there for more than a week. The Israeli army had banned ambulances from the camp for 11 days, and neighbours were too terrified to go to him.

Tank tracks led to his body, over it and onwards through the mud. What had once been a young man was rotting flesh mingled with shredded clothing, mashed into the earth. One foot was all that looked human.

Sabagh was no fighter, his brother and friends say. He was 28 and a father of three. His wife and children had fled on the first day of the Israeli invasion, Wednesday, April 3, but he stayed because he was diabetic and was too ill to run away. He was also afraid he would be mistaken for a fighter.

Two days later, he left his house when the Israelis yelled over megaphones that they were going to blow it up. He walked, directed by soldiers in armoured personnel carriers, with other men to Seha Street at the centre of the camp, carrying his bag of medicines. He joined the crowd. Soldiers yelled at him to take off his shirt, then his trousers. He clung to his bag of medicine as he tried to unbuckle his belt, and he was slow. The soldiers shot him, friends say.

Medical workers shooed away the chickens, wrapped Sabagh's remains in a rug, then lifted them into the back of a small open-bed truck. It drove off, past burned and shell-holed buildings, looking like a medieval plague wagon.

Across the narrow street was a forlorn pile of men's jeans, polyester tracksuit tops and cheap shoes - left by those who had got their clothes off in time, to prove they had no bombs strapped to their bodies, and had been taken to the Israeli army base at the nearby village of Salem.

As the rescue teams spread out over Jenin camp last week, after the Israeli army claimed victory in its battle against several hundred armed Palestinian radicals, it was clear something cataclysmic had occurred.

Instead of the Hawamish neighbourhood -previously a jumble of mismatched cinderblock homes - a vista lay open to the hills beyond.

Stunned and dusty in this new world, returning Palestinians wandered around a moonscape the size of two football pitches. It was littered with the detritus of human life - blankets, a little girl's tartan skirt, a child's orange boxing glove, shoes, a musical keyboard. Women in hijab headscarves dug at the crushed rubble with buckets and bare hands. Five-year-old Ahmed Hindi cried: "I want to go home." He didn't know he was standing on it.

Images of this man-made earthquake zone have flashed around the world as evidence that the Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon, is responsible for another war crime in Jenin on a par with the massacre of Palestinians in the Chatila and Sabra refugee camps in Beirut 20 years ago.

Israel has responded that the devastation was the consequence of a pitched battle against entrenched terrorists.

What really happened? Tragedy doesn't necessarily breed truth. The propaganda war had begun before the white dust settled over Jenin.

Rafi Laderman, a personable Israeli reserve major, emerged from the battlefield and made the rounds of the media in his rumpled green uniform. His clear plastic spectacles signalled his real job as a marketing consultant.

Laderman insisted that all the buildings in the refugee camp had been destroyed by explosive booby traps set by the terrorists, or levelled by Israeli bulldozers because they "presented additional engineering difficulties" that could endanger civilians. He himself had stopped the fighting to lead Palestinian civilians to safety.

All that seemed disingenuous. Equally unlikely were Palestinian claims that the Israelis had killed 500 Palestinians in cold blood, most civilians, and buried them in mass graves under the rubble after running them over with tanks. Israel said about 70 had been killed.

Terje Roed-Larsen, the United Nations envoy to the Middle East, cut through the propaganda by stating the obvious: "No military operation can justify this scale of destruction. Whatever the purpose was, the effect is collective punishment of a whole society."

He and his family received telephone death threats from Israeli callers for his pains.

Under pressure from many sides - including the United States, Britain, the United Nations and the European Union - Israel has agreed to a UN fact-finding mission. The trouble with such missions, however, is that they become bogged down by obfuscation while evidence goes cold.

To get an objective idea of what happened in Jenin requires an almost forensic investigation, weeding out lies and half-truths and the rumours that a stunned and terrified population has come to believe are true. By doing so, I have come to conclusions that are unlikely to satisfy the propagandists of either side.

Jenin was bound to be a prime target for the Israeli military backlash after a Palestinian suicide bomber killed 28 Israelis as they sat down to dinner in Netanya on Passover eve three weeks ago.

There has been a refugee camp in Jenin since the foundation of Israel in 1948 when Palestinians fled there from the Haifa area. The first residents worried only for their next rations and fretted impotently as their rich orange groves in Haifa were rebranded Jaffa oranges by Israel and exported around the world.

Since then, Jenin has become a stronghold of radical Palestinian nationalism with a population of 11,000 refugees. The Israeli defence force (IDF) believes half the suicide bombers who have struck Israel in the past year were trained in the Jenin refugee camp.

When the Israelis invaded Ramallah on March 29, in retaliation for the suicide bombings, radicals in Jenin knew they would be next. Sources there said local leaders of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah, including its militant Tanzim and Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades offshoots, organised small fighting cells that included members from each group.

At 2am on Wednesday April 3, five days after the invasion of Ramallah, Merkava tanks and armoured personnel carriers rumbled through Jenin and headed for the refugee camp on the edge of the city.

The Namal brigade and commandos entered from the west; the Golani brigade from the south; and the Fifth Brigade, a unit of reserve troops called up from their day jobs, went in under the command of Laderman.

The odds were far from equal. The Israelis had tanks, armoured personnel carriers and rocket-firing helicopter gunships. Its soldiers were in full battle gear with bulletproof vests, helmets and M-16s. Against them was a guerrilla force of several hundred men armed with Kalashnikovs and home-made bombs called kuwa - Arabic for elbow - manufactured from pieces of plumbing.

The two sides faced each other in a camp about 21/2 miles long by 1/2 mile wide. In this tiny battlefield the radicals not only resisted the might of the Israeli army longer than the combined Arab armies did in the 1967 six-day war, but turned themselves and their militant cause into the stuff of instant Palestinian legend.

"The fighting was the fiercest urban house-to-house fighting Israel has seen in 30 years," said Laderman.

The narrow dirt alleys provided perfect ambush hides for Palestinians who grew up in this maze. The Israelis tried to keep off the streets, progressing from house to house by breaking through the walls with explosives and hammers.

On the first night of the invasion, Israeli soldiers blew out the yellow metal door of Ismael Khatib’s home in the Hawamish district and hauled him out to act as a human shield as they knocked on his neighbours' doors.

As they did so, two gunmen across the alley opened fire. Hugging Khatib in front of him with his left arm, an Israeli soldier balanced his M-16 on Khatib's right shoulder and fired back wildly.

Kuwa bombs were hurled by Palestinians. Khatib threw himself on the ground and crawled away, only to circle around and climb in his back window. "I felt like I died and came alive again," he says.

The next day another Israeli patrol crashed through the wall into his living room. They stayed, keeping him, his wife and children hostage in a room.

A far more serious ambush sealed the Hawamish area's fate. By Monday, April 8, most of the surviving gunmen had been forced into this neighbourhood. Early next day, 16 reservists of the Fifth Brigade moved into an alley in Hawamish, searching for a house to use as a lookout post. Their leader, Major Oded Golomb, set charges to blow the door.

As he did so, a Palestinian bomb exploded and gunmen began firing from the opposite roof. Thirteen Israelis were killed.

Israel's retribution was swift. Armoured bulldozers, two-storey behemoths as impregnable as a tank, began knocking down houses in Hawamish.

Hurriya Kreini was in her home with her family when an Israel bulldozer began destroying the house without warning. She and her husband managed to push their children out of a window before the house tumbled down.

By Thursday, April 11, Hawamish had disappeared. That was the day the Israeli operation officially ended, but hours after the Israelis announced that the last 35 fighters had surrendered (they ran out of ammunition) I stood in a village called Borqin looking down into the camp. The sound of heavy machinegun fire still rose from the valley. Helicopter gunships shot bursts of heavy-calibre bullets. Explosions sounded and white puffs rose above the camp.

The Israelis let in the outside world slowly and grudgingly. The camp was finally opened to international aid agencies on April 14, but journalists were barred. Until only two days ago, Israeli soldiers shot at journalists they spotted trying to slip through the olive groves that slope up from the camp, or along a back dirt road.

The obstruction fuelled speculation that the Israelis were trying to hide something. There were mass graves, some said; bodies had been hauled off in refrigerated trucks; others swore hundreds of bodies were under the bulldozed homes.

Israelis bridled. "Our mission was to penetrate into Jenin area and dismantle the terrorist infrastructure and we did that," insisted the ubiquitous Laderman. "I have a five-year-old daughter and now I feel I can let her out in the playground."

I eventually gained access last Tuesday, walking in with as open a mind as I could muster.

Late in the day, when all was quiet, I was walking past the Jenin hospital. Nearby, women and children were slowly making their way back to temporary lodgings after a day trying to find their homes and relatives. An armoured personnel carrier pulled up at end of street behind us. The Palestinians took no notice - until the soldier in the turret opened fire straight down the street with his machinegun.

I dived for shelter. Children cried in terror. The soldier initially fired over our heads, but now bullets flashed by at chest height. The screams turned to moans as the APC headed towards us down the street.

It rolled into sight, stopped the gunfire and swivelled the huge barrel to point directly at us. Then the soldier waved his hand in anger, yelling: "Go, go." I think he just wanted everyone off the streets.

If I was now convinced by claims Israelis opened fire indiscriminately on civilians, weighing up the truth of other allegations would be much more difficult. Even what can seem obvious is not necessarily true.

From a house hit by a missile in the centre of what the Palestinians now call their own Ground Zero, rescue workers pulled human remains that people said were of a small child. They lay on a rug and seemed indeed very small to the eye. But when I found a doctor, he was dubious.

"This person has been reduced; I think in a fire," the doctor said. "See that bone?" He poked around and found a large thigh bone. Not a child.

When I tracked down the owner of the house, he said that four fighters had been holed up in his house firing on the Israelis when a missile hit it.

Scores of interviews in the camp did show consistency, however. Story after story - from people who had not yet met one another since they fled - indicated the Israelis had used Palestinians as human shields and had taken families hostage to protect their makeshift posts set up in their houses.

In a house overlooking Hawamish, the Sabagh family were sweeping out after having Israeli soldiers there for eight days. Trying to scrub off Hebrew slogans, Jamili Sabagh, 52, said the family were held in a tiny room upstairs.

"They gave us no food, no water. The room they put us in was too small for 13 people. They fed our dog to torment us, and not the children," she said. "Our home was a garbage heap when they left."

It is one of the few on the block untouched by missile strikes, a sign that it was indeed used as a post by the Israelis.

Ismahan Stati is a pretty, shy university student. Israeli soldiers came to her house on the third day and blew open the door, she said.

"They took me as a hostage," she said. "They were afraid."

They knocked on a nearby house, and when nobody answered they blew open the door with a grenade fired from a gun. In fact, Afaf Dusuqi, 52, had been slow coming to the door and was killed instantly by the shrapnel.

Afaf's mother held her body, covered in blood, and screamed for an ambulance but the soldiers fired into the house to drive her back. "I was shaking with fear," Stati recalled.

Outside the Dusuqi house, there is still blood on the concrete stoop, and there is a 6in hole in the yellow door where the lock used to be.

Afaf's body stayed in the house for five days until the family could smuggle it to the cemetery for burial in a hurried mass grave. I found her name scrawled on a stone where she will lie until her family can give her a proper burial. Doctors at the Razi hospital have her death certificate.

There is a bizarre twist to this story. A rumour began that Stati was a suicide bomber. The story started, her family believes, when a neighbour saw her standing in the group of soldiers, heard an explosion and ducked, then looked again to see the body of a woman.

The rumour is still around the camp, illustrating why every fact must be tracked down here.

Stories of cold-blooded executions were told to me in detail but could not be substantiated. A woman said she saw "with my own eyes" the execution of eight Hamas members and a 16-year-old boy who was the son of one of the men but had nothing to do with politics.

It sounded difficult to believe of the IDF, but she had a name. In the end, I found the true story; an awful tale, but not a cold-blooded assassination.

Fathi Chalabi, a bird-like elderly man, showed me where the Israelis had blown a hole in his door to enter his home at night. About 30 soldiers had forced their way in and separated out Chalabi, his son Wada'a, 32, and another man, Abed Sa'adi, 27, in the courtyard.

"They told us to face the wall and take off our shirts," Chalabi said. "They were looking for suicide bombers. But we were not. My son was the caretaker at school. He was one month from getting his university degree."

It was dark, and as Wada'a picked up his shirt, the Israelis spotted an elastic bandage he wore for back pain. Someone shouted in Hebrew. Chalabi remembers the officer's name was Gabi. They opened fire, hitting the two younger men, who fell on Chalabi.

The last he remembers is some kind of argument between the soldiers. Then they shone lights on the bodies and he played dead. "I was covered in Wada'a's blood," he said. The Israelis left up the alleyway. Dark dried bloodstains still marked the concrete when Chalabi spoke to me.

Equally callous was the shooting of Omar Nayel, a shop owner. "I was in my house looking out, trying to see what was happening," said Fathi Abu Aita, a neighbour. "I saw him walk across his courtyard, I think going to the loo." Two shots rang out and he fell. Nayel's body lay in the garden for days.

My conclusion after interviewing scores of refugees is that there is no evidence Israeli troops entered the camp aiming to "massacre" Palestinian civilians. But in many cases they shot first and did not take much care to find out if the target was a civilian or not.

Under the fourth Geneva convention, they are required to protect the civilian population, and wilful killing of a civilian is a potential war crime.

I am also certain that numerous Palestinians were held hostage in their homes while Israeli troops used the building as a base or a firing post, and that others were taken door to door as a human shields, sometimes thrown into rooms ahead of Israeli troops.

Both are violations of international law, which protects civilians in wartime.

As for the bulldozing of the Hawamish area, this seems to have been out of a combination of fear and revenge rather than premeditated.

I asked Laderman how he felt now. He said he was satisfied that the "nest of snakes" has been snuffed out. As for the new generation of suicide bombers the military operation has probably created, he said: "They would have become suicide terrorists anyway."


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1 posted on 04/21/2002 10:28:29 AM PDT by RWCon
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To: RWCon
The Palestinians are their own worst enemies. If they knew what Arafat had turned down because he didn't want peace. They would kill him.

They'll never know and would never believeif told. They only believe what they want to believe. The truth is irrelevent.

Arafat is responsible for the Palestinian suffering. As soon as the Palestinians pull their heads out and see the truth they will have an independent homeland. That has always been the case. They've been suffering all of these years becase they consistently believe their own lies.

2 posted on 04/21/2002 10:40:31 AM PDT by CHQmacer
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To: RWCon
Well, if the "poor poor residents" had shown some initiative (cleaning up their living areas and kicking the terrorists out say) I might feel a little sympathy. Instead, the terrorists, much like a violent street gang in So Cal, were protected and people stayed where it was unsafe. I would never live in a gang infested area any longer than I absolutely had to . Jenin is the equivalent to South Central LA with the Crips or Bloods (or other varied ethnicity type street gangs) all around you. With all the capital flowing into "palestine" it is more disgusting than any favela or slum south of the border. Surely there has to be at least ONE wealthy Arab supporter who wants the Palestinians to live decently; not all Arabs want these folks to become human missiles. Or maybe that is their real value to the Saudis and other wealthy oil producing countries.
3 posted on 04/21/2002 10:44:07 AM PDT by CARepubGal
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To: RWCon
Terje Roed-Larsen, the United Nations envoy to the Middle East, cut through the propaganda by stating the obvious: "No military operation can justify this scale of destruction. Whatever the purpose was, the effect is collective punishment of a whole society."

Good Quisling, now you're are starting to understand.

4 posted on 04/21/2002 10:48:09 AM PDT by tet68
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To: Caligirl for Bush
The only person that wins in all of this is Sadam Hussain. He is paying the suicide murderers to do his bidding. It hurts the Palestinians the most. They are just pawns in a much bigger game and their too ignorant to see the obvious.

What I don't understand is how they choose their ignorance. They insist on it. Maybe the truth is just too painfull to admit.

5 posted on 04/21/2002 10:49:17 AM PDT by CHQmacer
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To: RWCon
The press is saying that we must deal with arafat because he's the only one that we can deal with. Let the Isrealis decide whom they'll deal with. Whomever they deal with , He'll be assasinated by the Palestinians if he actually brokers peace. Fine with me. They just need to come up with an isreali stooge that will give Isreal what they need to be secure in return for a brief peace. As soon as the antifada starts up again Isreal will be in a better political position to use force to create more security. Arafat has to be killed first. The Irealis may need to kill him and make it look like the Palestinians did it. Then pick someone better to deal with.
6 posted on 04/21/2002 10:50:57 AM PDT by CHQmacer
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To: RWCon
They need brutal repressive rule. They can't live with anything else. If we were strong Arab leaders would do our bidding in order to stay in power ( like Iran used to ) and we could rule indirectly while the ignorent Arab masses are clueless as usual.

They will always be clueless. The problem is that we allow the Arab govs to use anti-American propaganda as an excuse for their failures. That is stupid.

As soon as we make if very clear that they will be removed from power if they don't crack down hard on their anti-American press islamic fundamentalists it will happen.

We may need to kill a couple of million in order to make our point but probably not. Removing Sadam in a very aggressive way and setting up a puppet government there with an American bayonett in his back would probably be enouph and would be relatively easy.

We need to put the 400 billion military budget to good use. Right now we're wasting about 350 billion of it while America and the civilized world is under a very real an serious threat.

7 posted on 04/21/2002 10:52:11 AM PDT by CHQmacer
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To: RWCon
The spin in this article is unreal. I thought I was reading a novel for a moment, not a news piece. I am actively searching for an article that chronicles - Milan Kundera style - the blood and massacre of the Israelis.

How can any intelligent person read this and not recognize the propaganda?

By the way, did anyone catch the Saturday Night Live piece on the French last night? Priceless.

8 posted on 04/21/2002 10:56:24 AM PDT by nicholle
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To: RWCon;knighthawk;PsyOps
Stunned and dusty in this new world, returning Palestinians wandered around
a moonscape the size of two football pitches.


Here's a good indication that this report was done by a "professional journalist".

The reporter couldn't just say the area is fairly consistent with the 70 X 100 yard
zone of flattened buildings mentioned in one of the articles titled "The Massacre
That Wasn't".
About the size of the patch of ground occupied by the high school stadium at
my high school in "flyover country". Just Huge....right...
(Different articles under this title appeared in The New York Post and The Wall Street Journal.)

Yep, if the court of world opinion declares the Israeli Defense Force guilty
of a "holocaust" in the Jenin Camp...
they'll hold the record for "Smallest Holocaust in Terms of Area" in the history
of mankind at arms.

But don't expect this to be mentioned on "the news".
True TV newspersons know that truth usually doesn't pump up ratings like a good story.
9 posted on 04/21/2002 11:02:07 AM PDT by VOA
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To: CHQmacer
It's not possible to have an independent homeland under the hostile and destructive Israeli occupation. All the Israeli soldiers and settlers must leave the occupied territories.
10 posted on 04/21/2002 11:02:49 AM PDT by ThreeOfSeven
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To: RWCon
The first residents worried only for their next rations and fretted impotently as their
rich orange groves in Haifa were rebranded Jaffa oranges by Israel and exported around the world.


This is the sort of thing that happens when you back the wrong horse.

They had a chance to be part of a sunny Switzerland (without the snow and ice)
but cheered on the Arab League in hopes of driving the Jews into the sea.

They lost.
And still haven't figured out that they could make a good deal with the Israelis.

Like the 25% of the Israeli population that is Arab/Muslim.

Like a statesman said long ago:
"They never miss a chance...to miss a chance."
11 posted on 04/21/2002 11:10:18 AM PDT by VOA
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To: RWCon
The story changes. The European press initially bought into the massacre stories. Now that those seem to be proven untrue, the European press has to cast about for other reasons to justify their portrayal of the Israelis as monsters.

Holding people hostage in their houses?

12 posted on 04/21/2002 11:16:20 AM PDT by Inyokern
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To: RWCon
"No military operation can justify this scale of destruction. Whatever the purpose was, the effect is collective punishment of a whole society."

9/11 now haunts the perpetrators and celebrators of that trajedy. Remember these were the folks who were joyfully celebrating in the streets as the WTC buildings came crashing down in the same kind of rubble that is now their just due.

13 posted on 04/21/2002 11:17:41 AM PDT by RWG
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Comment #14 Removed by Moderator

Comment #15 Removed by Moderator

To: Feenian
Those of you who still believe Israelis are morally superior to Palestinians in the matter of killing civilians wantonly should read this article carefully.

Too late. I already flushed.

16 posted on 04/21/2002 11:36:39 AM PDT by LJ
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To: Feenian
Have another cocktail. "Imagine pushing your kids out of windows to safety while a bulldozers charges into your house without warning. " Without warning, Ha! The area is the size of a soccer field. It took the jews a week to clear it. That is a pace less then a meter per hour. But maybe the palis are as stupid as you are and even though there is room to room fighting, propane bombs going off less than 40 meters from your house---you'd stay there, with your children never the less. Get real, this is no forum to peddle ignorent pap.
17 posted on 04/21/2002 11:46:17 AM PDT by Leisler
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Comment #18 Removed by Moderator

Comment #19 Removed by Moderator

To: RWCon;LarryLied
Didn't you wonder why they wanted all TV reporters and so on out of there? No witnesses. The whole world is watching.
20 posted on 04/21/2002 11:54:16 AM PDT by mv1
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To: Feenian
Sure they bought the massacre story. They remember Sabra and Shatila where Sharon gave the green light for the Phalangists to murder 2000 Palestinian women and children.

Does anyone really believe that Arabs need a "green light" from Israel to kill other Arabs? Sabra and Shatila were committed by the Lebanese Christians in revenge for the assassination of the Christian President of Lebanon.

The whole operation was coordinated and controlled by the Israelis.

That has never been proven. I think an Israeli court of inquiry convicted Sharon of not taking adequate steps to prevent what happened, but that is a far cry from what you are claiming. If I remember correctly, Sharon won a libel suit against Time Magazine when Time claimed he had direct involvement in Sabra and Shatila.

Do you blame the press for being suspicious?

I blame the press for printing things as "news" before the facts are known.

21 posted on 04/21/2002 11:57:50 AM PDT by Inyokern
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Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

To: Feenian
This is a clear violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention regarding treatment of civilians during warfare.

Bill Bennet disagrees with you, he thinks Israel was too restrained.

23 posted on 04/21/2002 12:00:42 PM PDT by mv1
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Comment #24 Removed by Moderator

Comment #25 Removed by Moderator

To: RWCon
Two days later, he left his house when the Israelis yelled over megaphones that they were going to blow it up. He walked, directed by soldiers in armoured personnel carriers, with other men to Seha Street at the centre of the camp, carrying his bag of medicines. He joined the crowd. Soldiers yelled at him to take off his shirt, then his trousers. He clung to his bag of medicine as he tried to unbuckle his belt, and he was slow. The soldiers shot him, friends say.

Yes, we can tell that they are already on the way to weeding out the "half-truths" and such. This sounds identical to what the Islamics said the Serbs, Makedonians, Lebanese Christians and Russians did. Funny, no bad words on when they do it to each other or to other nationalities. Guess it will take a nuclear devise remodeling an American down town to finally put an end to this kind of Western stupidity...actually, would be better if it was in England or France or maybe Germany...might just wake up the W. Europeans from their collective narcoleptic death wish.

26 posted on 04/21/2002 12:18:49 PM PDT by Stavka2
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To: RWCon
Two days later, he left his house when the Israelis yelled over megaphones that they were going to blow it up. He walked, directed by soldiers in armoured personnel carriers, with other men to Seha Street at the centre of the camp, carrying his bag of medicines. He joined the crowd. Soldiers yelled at him to take off his shirt, then his trousers. He clung to his bag of medicine as he tried to unbuckle his belt, and he was slow. The soldiers shot him, friends say.

Yes, we can tell that they are already on the way to weeding out the "half-truths" and such. This sounds identical to what the Islamics said the Serbs, Makedonians, Lebanese Christians and Russians did. Funny, no bad words on when they do it to each other or to other nationalities. Guess it will take a nuclear devise remodeling an American down town to finally put an end to this kind of Western stupidity...actually, would be better if it was in England or France or maybe Germany...might just wake up the W. Europeans from their collective narcoleptic death wish.

27 posted on 04/21/2002 12:19:13 PM PDT by Stavka2
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To: Feenian
Kinda new here aren't you? Oh say April 13, 2002...and already making such grandiose statements to boot!
28 posted on 04/21/2002 12:20:51 PM PDT by Stavka2
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To: Inyokern
Yeah, don't forget the 100,000 dead Christians in Lebanon thanks to Uncle Arai.
29 posted on 04/21/2002 12:22:07 PM PDT by Stavka2
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To: Feenian
You should love Colon Bowel. He likes terrorists too.
30 posted on 04/21/2002 12:24:50 PM PDT by Democrats are liars
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To: Feenian
Hmm, let me tell your liberal self a story of slaughter...it's called Black September...1973. 20,000 Palies were exterminated with American weapons, their camps surrounded. The rest were exiled into Syria and Lebanon. Were the Israelies at fault? Was it for suicide bombings? NO and NO. It was for the assassination of the first Jordanian king and it was done by their fellow Islamics...the Jordanians. Oh, and Assad of Syria shortly after wards, butchered 10,000 more when they started trouble in Syria.
31 posted on 04/21/2002 12:25:14 PM PDT by Stavka2
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To: ThreeOfSeven
I see you've finally slithered out from under your rock. Did the Islamic propaganda schools give you your refresher training?
32 posted on 04/21/2002 12:26:44 PM PDT by Stavka2
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To: ThreeOfSeven
The Palestinians have rejected an independent homeland over and over again. Just think if they had accepted the original UN agreement 47 and 49. There would have been a large and completely independent Palestinian state in Palestine for the first time in thousands of years if you believe that the Palestinians are the decendents of the original inhabitents. If not , then for the first time in history. That would have been short lived however as it would have been swallowed up by another Arab state.

They rejected independence in favor of war. Then they rejected it again in favor of war. Most recently they rejected the best deal that they could ever hope for again in favor of war.

Obviously they don't want peace. They cannot govern themselves. They must be governed.

If they ever did suceed in killing the Jews and gaining Palisine they would imediately be subjegated by another Arab state. Probable Sysria but maybe the Sysians would share it with Iraq and/or Jordan and or Eqypt etc.

In any case , The Palestinians would be slaughtered until they stopped resisting. The Palestinians are infinitely better off under Isreali occutation. At least under Isreali occupation they somtimes have the semblence of civil rights in fact many Palestinians have Isreali citizenship. Under any other Arab state (including one of their own making ) they would be brutally repressed and have virtually no rights.

33 posted on 04/21/2002 12:26:54 PM PDT by CHQmacer
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To: Stavka2
Another sorry mess courtesy of the Klintoons!
34 posted on 04/21/2002 12:31:10 PM PDT by CARepubGal
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To: Feenian
No, Sharon met with the killers the night before. He knew they were seeking revenge and gave the green light to go into the camps.

He knew they were going in to look for terrorists who had murdered Christians. If you are claiming that Sharon knew ahead of time that the Phalangists were going to massacre civilians or that Sharon encouraged this, that accusation was argued in court in the Time Magazine libel suit and the jury decided the accusation was false.

35 posted on 04/21/2002 12:33:07 PM PDT by Inyokern
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To: Feenian
The US isn't a facist state or a dictatorship. We're a democracy. We prefer that other nations be democratic also but some peoples have not yet developed the ability or the desire to be democratic. I don't think that we should force democracy on barbarians but we must at least protect ourselves from them.

Arabs in general and the Palestinians in particulare continually demonstrate that they only respect the application of brute force. They would destory themselves and us along with them if we don't abilge them.

36 posted on 04/21/2002 12:40:41 PM PDT by CHQmacer
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To: Feenian
I find what Bennett says morally disgusting

I find hating Jews morally disgusting. So don't you give any lectures on the subject!

37 posted on 04/21/2002 1:02:00 PM PDT by AmericaUnited
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To: RWCon
Funny. The Times wasn't interested in the Passover Massacre, was it?
38 posted on 04/21/2002 1:07:47 PM PDT by pabianice
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Comment #39 Removed by Moderator

To: AmericaUnited
Hating Jews as a group is morally disgusting but so is hating Arabs. Don't you agree?
40 posted on 04/21/2002 1:11:28 PM PDT by Austin Willard Wright
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Comment #41 Removed by Moderator

To: Austin Willard Wright
I hate all those who plan and do evil!
42 posted on 04/21/2002 1:17:50 PM PDT by AmericaUnited
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To: AmericaUnited
Why don't you just answer the question?
43 posted on 04/21/2002 1:19:09 PM PDT by Austin Willard Wright
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Comment #44 Removed by Moderator

Comment #45 Removed by Moderator

Comment #46 Removed by Moderator

To: ThreeOfSeven
"All the Israeli soldiers and settlers must leave the occupied territories."

Tell us, why are the Israeli forces in the "occupied territories"?
How is their leaving, considered justified?
Where else in the history of the world, does a defeated aggressor get to dictate terms.

If the Palestinians wished to be treated with respect - they should not have declared their radical Islamic hatred for everything non-Islamic....
They may not behave as murdering bastards in the evening, and demand to be treated as choir girls in the morning...

War is a bitch....losing is worse.
Semper Fi

47 posted on 04/21/2002 1:42:41 PM PDT by river rat
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Comment #48 Removed by Moderator

To: Feenian
I only remarked upon one of your patently idiotic and prima fascia untruths, of which you, yourself, posted on your name Sir, and went specifically unanswered. Cute, in if one was a ten year old debater, but obvious and in this league, pathetic.

Yes I was rational. Thank you. As to me being an apologist for the Jews or anyone else, wrong. Furthermore, as a felonious enlistee and eventual SF sergeant, who’s father lost his arm at the Remagen Bridge as a up from the ranks Major(unlike the servile Irish who couldn’t wait to be Hitler’s gardeners), who’s family has been every conflict since the revolution, I am more than aware of the behavior of men in war, including Americans.

Still though, keep it up, your every word condemns your argument, but that you lack the intellect to perceive it. Ah, to have the mind of a mullet, what peace it must be.

49 posted on 04/21/2002 1:46:50 PM PDT by Leisler
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To: nicholle
By the way, did anyone catch the Saturday Night Live piece on the French last night? Priceless. Could you give us a short version?
50 posted on 04/21/2002 1:46:52 PM PDT by Sarah
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