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Dennis Ross on Fox News Sunday (What Arafat Turned Down)
Fox News ^ | 4-12-02

Posted on 04/22/2002 6:55:59 AM PDT by SJackson

Edited on 04/22/2004 12:33:16 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

BRIT HUME, FOX NEWS: Former Middle East envoy Dennis Ross has worked to achieve Middle East peace throughout President Clinton's final days in office. In the months following Clinton's failed peace summit at Camp David, U.S. negotiators continued behind-the-scenes peace talks with the Palestinians and Israelis up until January 2001, and that followed Clinton's presentation of ideas at the end of December 2000.


(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Israel
KEYWORDS: islamicviolence; jihadinamerica; napalminthemorning; wot
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1 posted on 04/22/2002 6:56:00 AM PDT by SJackson
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To: SJackson
Umm..he's lying. That's all it could be, so let's go with,"Ross is a liar."

I won't be criticizing the Clintonistas for their peace push in the future. For whatever motive, which was no doubt selfish, Clinton had his guys in there swinging. It didn't work out for, I believe, exactly the reason(s) Ross cites here.

Arafat's gotta go.

2 posted on 04/22/2002 7:09:20 AM PDT by big gray tabby
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To: big gray tabby
He's gone.
3 posted on 04/22/2002 7:12:13 AM PDT by The Great Satan
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To: SJackson
WHAT I AM ABOUT TO SAY DESERVES A **BARF ALERT**

Dennis Ross's comments yesterday should have been picked up by the lamestream media - but weren't. What is needed is for billy boy his-bad-self to make similar comments and then the CNNPMSNBCNYTIMES crowd would pickup the "story" that Arafat turned down the mother of all deals and converted his fellow "Palestinians" into human bombs because he is needs to kill Jews in order to maintain his "Legacy".

4 posted on 04/22/2002 7:21:12 AM PDT by Oldeconomybuyer
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To: SJackson
I was so glad to hear Ross speak so forthrightly without any diplo speak. He left no doubt who is the problem here.
5 posted on 04/22/2002 7:29:31 AM PDT by Bahbah
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To: Oldeconomybuyer
the main-stream media didn't get tagged "lame-stream media" for no reason. They are either a bunch of lazy, ignorant, slough's or they are the biggest anti-semites of modern time. Perhaps both.
6 posted on 04/22/2002 7:31:18 AM PDT by hope
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To: SJackson
ROSS: He supposed to give, on Jerusalem, the idea that there would be for the Israelis sovereignty over the Western Wall, which would cover the areas that are of religious significance to Israel. He rejected that. 

So that's why they have it themselves recorded. And to this day, the Palestinians have not presented to their own people what was available. 

I find this truly astounding and replusive, but consistent with Arafat and his cronies taking over Jewish and Christian holy places and making them Muslim.  It is less surprising that the Palestinian leaders would lie to their own people.  It's the Big Lie theory.


******

Arafat's whole life has been governed by struggle and a cause. Everything he has done as leader of the Palestinians is to always leave his options open, never close a door. He was being asked here, you've got to close the door. For him to end the conflict is to end himself. 

Once a terrorist, always a terrorist.  He belongs in a prison cell, doing time for his string of murders dating back decades.

************

ROSS: It is possible he concluded that. It is possible he thought he could do and get more with the violence. There's no doubt in my mind that he thought the violence would create pressure on the Israelis and on us and maybe the rest of the world. 

And I think there's one other factor. You have to understand that Barak was able to reposition Israel internationally. Israel was seen as having demonstrated unmistakably it wanted peace, and the reason it wasn't available, achievable was because Arafat wouldn't accept it. 

Arafat needed to re-establish the Palestinians as a victim, and unfortunately they are a victim, and we see it now in a terrible way.


The Palestinians are professional victims, culminating in Arafat's plaintive bleatings from Ramallah and their propaganda machine working overtime in Jenin.  They know nothing else.

7 posted on 04/22/2002 7:31:32 AM PDT by Catspaw
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To: SJackson
Thanks for posting this transcript - It was a powerful interview.
8 posted on 04/22/2002 7:38:06 AM PDT by maica
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To: SJackson, dennisw
For all those who says that Israelis did not give to Palestinians everything they wanted during the negotiations: that's not how negotiations are conducted. You don't give everything to begin with. You give less. Then, you NEGOTIATE to the compromise, which is not the ideal solution for neither party, but is a PAINFUL compromise. This is bargaining, screaming and kicking like on the Eastern BAZAAR. If you agree with a price, you are not the respectable customer, but a sucker, who should be dealt with as a looser worthy of no respect. You must bargain. Of course, its presumes that you WANT to negotiate. And Arafat did not, because he rightfully (for him) concluded that he can get more with the violence, because he is supported by the "whole world". It remains to be seen if this is ultimately the case, but for right now in the eyes if the world all good will of the Israel has evaporated, and the violence he started instead of the negotiations brought only sympathy to Palestinians almost universally everywhere. In my opinion, this is extremely dangerous not just for Israel, but for all democracies. You can't reward terrorism and violence even once, because barbarism has already instant advantage by using all possible means, whenever civilization is consciously limiting itself. The only solution is NO REWARD FOR TERRORISM.

Here are the excerpts from this interview worth repeating again , not necessarily in the order they were said. 

ROSS: The ideas were presented on December 23 by the president, and they basically said the following: On borders, there would be about a 5 percent annexation in the West Bank for the Israelis and a 2 percent swap. So there would be a net 97 percent of the territory that would go to the Palestinians.

On Jerusalem, the Arab neighborhoods of East Jerusalem would become the capitol of the Palestinian state.

On the issue of refugees, there would be a right of return for the refugees to their own state, not to Israel, but there would also be a fund of $30 billion internationally that would be put together for either compensation or to cover repatriation, resettlement, rehabilitation costs.

And when it came to security, there would be a international presence, in place of the Israelis, in the Jordan Valley.

These were ideas that were comprehensive, unprecedented, stretched very far, represented a culmination of an effort in our best judgment as to what each side could accept after thousands of hours of debate, discussion with each side.

ROSS: The Israelis would have gotten completely out of Gaza.

...So that map there that you see, which shows a very narrow green space along the border, would become part of the orange. So the Palestinians would have in the West Bank an area that was contiguous. Those who say there were cantons, completely untrue. It was contiguous.

...And to connect Gaza with the West Bank, there would have been an elevated highway, an elevated railroad, to ensure that there would be not just safe passage for the Palestinians, but free passage.

FRED BARNES, WEEKLY STANDARD: Now, Palestinian officials say to this day that Arafat said yes.

ROSS: Arafat came to the White House on January 2. Met with the president, and I was there in the Oval Office. He said yes, and then he added reservations that basically meant he rejected every single one of the things he was supposed to give.

HUME: What was he supposed to give?

ROSS: He supposed to give, on Jerusalem, the idea that there would be for the Israelis sovereignty over the Western Wall, which would cover the areas that are of religious significance to Israel. He rejected that.

.....He rejected the idea on the refugees. He said we need a whole new formula, as if what we had presented was non-existent.

He rejected the basic ideas on security. He wouldn't even countenance the idea that the Israelis would be able to operate in Palestinian airspace.

You know when you fly into Israel today you go to Ben Gurion. You fly in over the West Bank because you can't -- there's no space through otherwise. He rejected that.

So every single one of the ideas that was asked of him he rejected.

BARNES: I have two other questions. One, the Palestinians point out that this was never put on paper, this offer. Why not?

ROSS: ..... We did not want to formalize it. We wanted them to understand we meant what we said. You don't accept it, it's not for negotiation, this is the end of it, we withdraw it.

So that's why they have it themselves recorded. And to this day, the Palestinians have not presented to their own people what was available.

BARNES: In other words, Arafat might use it as a basis for further negotiations so he'd get more?

ROSS: Well, exactly.

HUME: Which is what, in fact, he tried to do, according to your account.

ROSS: We treated it as not only a culmination. We wanted to be sure it couldn't be a floor for negotiations. ....It couldn't be a ceiling. It was the roof.

HUME: This was a final offer?

ROSS: Exactly. Exactly right.

HUME: This was the solution.

BARNES: Was Arafat alone in rejecting it? I mean, what about his negotiators?

ROSS: It's very clear to me that his negotiators understood this was the best they were ever going to get. They wanted him to accept it. He was not prepared to accept it.

......HUME: What, in your view, was the reason that Arafat, in effect, said no?

ROSS: Because fundamentally I do not believe he can end the conflict. We had one critical clause in this agreement, and that clause was, this is the end of the conflict.

Arafat's whole life has been governed by struggle and a cause. Everything he has done as leader of the Palestinians is to always leave his options open, never close a door. He was being asked here, you've got to close the door. For him to end the conflict is to end himself.

.......HUME: ... might he not have concluded that the violence was working?

ROSS: It is possible he concluded that. It is possible he thought he could do and get more with the violence. There's no doubt in my mind that he thought the violence would create pressure on the Israelis and on us and maybe the rest of the world.

And I think there's one other factor. You have to understand that Barak was able to reposition Israel internationally. Israel was seen as having demonstrated unmistakably it wanted peace, and the reason it wasn't available, achievable was because Arafat wouldn't accept it.

Arafat needed to re-establish the Palestinians as a victim, and unfortunately they are a victim, and we see it now in a terrible way.

9 posted on 04/22/2002 8:08:37 AM PDT by Tolik
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To: Tolik
We all should do some mass emailing of this entire transcript to media outlets. See freeper backhoe for easy email lists.
10 posted on 04/22/2002 8:24:23 AM PDT by Elkiejg
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To: SJackson
I'm constantly impressed by Dennis Ross, and am glad that Fox has him on so often as a consultant. He's the only on of the 'toons people who strikes me as a decent person. Billyjeff must have made a mistake in taking him on board. Thanks for posting this interview, it was an important one, and I hope it will get out there into the lamestream, though I have my doubts.
11 posted on 04/22/2002 8:33:36 AM PDT by texasbluebell
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To: SJackson
"Arafat needed to re-establish the Palestinians as a victim"

All I can say is, Wow!! Ross really nailed Arafat there. Unfortunately, the ploy for Western and European sympathy seems to be working.

12 posted on 04/22/2002 8:40:43 AM PDT by watchwoman
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To: Tolik
Good one and I have copied this to post later. Prvious Sunday Dennis Ross layed out the same to Brit Hume. Brit questioned him closely so there would be no mistake.
13 posted on 04/22/2002 9:20:54 AM PDT by dennisw
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To: SJackson


 

 

 

 

 

 

How much of the West Bank did Israel offer the Palestinians? 

MAY 2000 PROPOSAL (before intifada)

 

 

DECEMBER 2000 PROPOSALS (four months into the intifada)

Projections of the Israeli offer in December 2000, and the December 2000 Bridging Proposal of US President Clinton

 

US Bridging Proposal

Israeli Proposal

clinton.gif (30083 bytes)
A map showing the projection of the bridging proposals of U.S. President William J. Clinton, December, 2000. Dark Gray areas are currently Areas A and B of Palestinian control. Light Gray areas would become part of the Palestinian state. Gray-striped areas would become part of the Palestinian state after an interim period.  Maps are adapted from . A map showing the projection of the Israeli proposals of the government of PM Barak, December, 2000. Dark Gray areas are currently Areas A and B of Palestinian control. Light Gray areas would become part of the Palestinian state. Gray-striped areas would become part of the Palestinian state after an interim period.  Maps are adapted from .

 

 

 

FINAL JANUARY 2001 PROPOSAL

 

 

 

 



14 posted on 04/22/2002 9:26:06 AM PDT by dennisw
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To: SJackson,monkeyshine, ipaq2000, Lent, veronica, Sabramerican, beowolf, Nachum, BenF, angelo, bost
PINGING!   ) ) ) )  

If you want on or off me Israel/MidEast/Islamic Jihad ping list please let me know.  Via Freepmail is best way.............

alt

15 posted on 04/22/2002 9:37:37 AM PDT by dennisw
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To: slugbug
ping, from our conversation this weekend
16 posted on 04/22/2002 9:45:43 AM PDT by Teacher317
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To: dennisw
Israel was seen as having demonstrated unmistakably it wanted peace, and the reason it wasn't available, achievable was because Arafat wouldn't accept it.

That's absolutely right.

17 posted on 04/22/2002 10:11:01 AM PDT by Victoria Delsoul
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To: SJackson
bump for later read.
18 posted on 04/22/2002 10:45:57 AM PDT by annalex
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To: SJackson
Let me get this straight. Clinton and his resident Israeli lobbyist (Ross) didn't want to put their so-called "final offer" in writing. The Palestinians were just supposed to take notes and say yes? It seems like a con game with Arafat as the mark, the pigeon, the dupe expected to sign a blank agreement to be filled in later. Later, of course, the real "final offer" would turn out to be so much less rosy than Ross now claims it was. If the "final offer" had been for real it would have been written down and spelled out, with every t crossed and every i dotted.
19 posted on 04/22/2002 10:56:08 AM PDT by ThreeOfSeven
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To: SJackson
Great post.
20 posted on 04/22/2002 11:00:51 AM PDT by BOBTHENAILER
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To: SJackson
bump
21 posted on 04/22/2002 11:05:54 AM PDT by VOA
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To: dennisw;SJackson; badjoe; Grampa dave;backhoe;seamole;islamic_violence;JIHAD IN AMERICA...
This is a thread to bookmark for sure!

Great Maps -- Great Interview -- Great comments!

It was an incredible interview!

After the weekend protest in Washington and elsewhere this seems to be the issue for the anti america crowd in the USA.

Here are some facts to arm oneself with.

To find all articles tagged or indexed using Islamic_Violence

Click here: Islamic_Violence

JIHAD IN AMERICA:

To find all articles tagged or indexed using JIHAD IN AMERICA, click below:
  click here >>> JIHAD IN AMERICA <<< click here  
(To view all FR Bump Lists, click here)



22 posted on 04/22/2002 11:12:38 AM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: SJackson
Thanks for posting this.

I will copy and forward this to a bunch of people.

You can't just assume that the truth speaks for itself, we have to make it known.

23 posted on 04/22/2002 11:15:11 AM PDT by tictoc
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To: ;Lion's Cub;Libertarianize the GOP;Free the USA;Fish out of Water;backhoe;
ping for the indexing crew!
24 posted on 04/22/2002 11:17:08 AM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
bttt
25 posted on 04/22/2002 11:21:07 AM PDT by Fish out of Water
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To: hope; Oldeconomybuyer; Big Gray Tabby; The Great Satan
..... the main-stream media didn't get tagged "lame-stream media" for no reason. They are either a bunch of lazy, ignorant, slough's or they are the biggest anti-semites of modern time. Perhaps both.

Both.

The world's media are almost to a man evil personified and are either Joeseph Goebbelsian promotors of and advocates for an elitist totalitarian agenda and/or are willing to say anything and to promulgate any lie uttered by any petty dictator and/or terrorist in order to gain access to the area occupied and/or controlled by the dictator and/or terrorist for the purpose, only, of driving the bottom line.

Intellectually and morally bankrupt bottom feeding bastards, for every last one for whom elevation to "slut" would demand a too-hard socially-upward leap.

26 posted on 04/22/2002 11:53:03 AM PDT by Brian Allen
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To: hope
the main-stream media didn't get tagged "lame-stream media" for no reason. They are either a bunch of lazy, ignorant, slough's or they are the biggest anti-semites of modern time.

Oh its much worse than that. They inherently hate what America stands for. Just as they won't ever mention what Arafat turned down, they had no problem SUPPORTING a president and associates who committed just about every crime you can name. They didn't bother to inform the American public about even a fraction of the allegations, which include election tampering and murder. Try and find a single lamestream media outlet that mentioned the Riady non-refund. You won't. Try and find a single lamestream media outlet that mentioned the opinions of the military pathologists in the Ron Brown case or what the x-ray of his skull appeared to show. You won't. The lamestream press is, in a word, controlled.

27 posted on 04/22/2002 12:29:33 PM PDT by BeAChooser
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To: SJackson
Bump for the Pali apologists out there to learn something.

I know, I know, like the facts will ever get in the way of this bunch.

Cheers,

knews hound

28 posted on 04/22/2002 12:31:24 PM PDT by knews_hound
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To: SJackson
"One, the Palestinians point out that this was never put on paper, this offer. Why not? "

If the offer was that good it would have been shown so the world could see. I wonder what was said about the real bone of contention - the settlements. Yes Clinton was rushed to get back to Monica but many moons have passed by and Ross could have prepared the final offer map. No one would believe Arafat's version (dictated).

In the computer world when something is advertised as very good but isn't produced, it is called vaporware.

29 posted on 04/22/2002 12:44:40 PM PDT by ex-snook
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To: dennisw
By the way, your lower right map, they would have gotten all the grey areas, no cantons, no roads cutting the territory, and no Israelis along the Jordan River. And though it would have been a matter to discuss, the settlers in those areas would have been sol.
30 posted on 04/22/2002 12:51:04 PM PDT by SJackson
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To: Victoria Delsoul; dennisw; 2sheep; thinkin' gal; rnmomof7; crystalk; american in israel

31 posted on 04/22/2002 1:13:11 PM PDT by Sir Gawain
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To: SJackson
By the way, your lower right map, they would have gotten all the grey areas, no cantons, no roads cutting the territory,

Even the cantons in the earlier plans would have disappeared as Pallies demonstrated peaceful intent. First auntonomy then Palestinian statehood.. ....Instead the lesson of Oslo is that the Pallies main goal is to arm themselves any which way they can and make war against Israel.

32 posted on 04/22/2002 1:28:54 PM PDT by dennisw
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To: texasbluebell
Dennis Ross worked under Bush Senior and Clinton traitor.

Dennis B. Ross
... Ambassador Dennis B. Ross joins ... under President Clinton, Ross served as Director of
the State Department's Policy ... in the first Bush administration.
In ...
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/senior/ross.htm- 9k - Cached - Similar pages

33 posted on 04/22/2002 1:42:37 PM PDT by dennisw
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To: phil v.
ping!
34 posted on 04/22/2002 6:00:55 PM PDT by BrooklynGOP
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To: SJackson
I KNEW Arafat was offered part of Jerusalem. Every piece of information I retained about these negotiations claimed that Jerusalem should never have been part of the exchange because it was a loaded issue. I felt the Israelis had totally redeemed themselves for whatever militancy they had been accused of in the past with this deal. Now I find out they went even farther than I had heard...

G*d D*mn Arafat to the lowest Hell.

35 posted on 04/22/2002 7:41:35 PM PDT by sleavelessinseattle
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To: SJackson
I saw this interview of Dennis Ross by Brit Hume.

I was impressed by Ross' clear recitation of events, and how he communicated his anger at Arafat for not only refusing the offer, but refusing to make a counter-offer.

When someone so clear-speaking and even-handed as Ross becomes obviously irritated, it is a large-lettered sign that someone has been an ass.

He mentioned the "thousands of hours of talks" and one can plainly see that he was no doubt one talking for thousands of hours--who would have the stainless steel stomach for that?

It was made abundantly clear that Arafat is a Jew-killer, not a peace-maker. And that Powell's urging Israel to release Arafat is exactly 180 degrees ass backwards.

Arafat cannot be party to any progress--which is not to say that progress is possible in the lifetime of anyone living.

36 posted on 04/22/2002 7:52:51 PM PDT by PhilDragoo
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To: sleavelessinseattle
The mistake was redeeming Arafat from Libya in 93. He represented no one. In those days there was a semblance of order in the territories. In the hopes of creating a state, Israel turned over jurisdiction to all those drunken, crazy cowboys in the old movies, with that evil trail boss in command. But the Marshall wasn't allowed in town, and Yasser ran off with the herd and the gold.

Can you imagine John Wayne negotiating with Arafat?

37 posted on 04/22/2002 7:56:19 PM PDT by SJackson
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To: PhilDragoo
I listened to it too. He was very impressive, and he served effectively through two very different administrations. I wish he was still in our Nations service.
38 posted on 04/22/2002 8:00:05 PM PDT by SJackson
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To: Sir Gawain
OUCH!

Bookmarked for later reference.

39 posted on 04/22/2002 8:42:08 PM PDT by Samwise
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To: SJackson
Was it in "The Searchers" where he shot the eyes out of a dead commanche warrior because of their belief that a blinded soul would be cursed to wander between the four winds. The DUKE.
40 posted on 04/22/2002 8:47:36 PM PDT by sleavelessinseattle
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To: sleavelessinseattle
...shot the eyes out of a dead commanche ...

No, you must be thinking of Israelis in Jenin. The Duke wouldn't do that.

Haven't seen that movie for a LONG time. He wouldn't do that, would he?

41 posted on 04/22/2002 8:55:08 PM PDT by SJackson
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To: Sir Gawain

42 posted on 04/22/2002 8:56:59 PM PDT by Victoria Delsoul
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To: ThreeOfSeven
It seems like a con game with Arafat as the mark, the pigeon, the dupe expected to sign a blank agreement to be filled in later. Later, of course, the real "final offer" would turn out to be so much less rosy than Ross now claims it was. If the "final offer" had been for real it would have been written down and spelled out, with every t crossed and every i dotted.

In fact, Barak put up Jerusalem to be a SHARED capitol along with all the land concessions Israel NEVER had to offer because the LAND belongs to Israel and always did.
Not only did Arafat spit in the face of peace, he DOOMED his *people* to lives of abject misery while his *wifey poo* lives like a queen in Paris on the money that SHOULD have built these people a real chance at a real life.
It isn't owed to them by Israel, you know. It's owed to them by the countries they emmigrated from and by their own leadership...which by MY calculations, are only interested in their Swiss bank accounts and dead Jews.

43 posted on 04/22/2002 10:03:26 PM PDT by Nix 2
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To: Nix 2
I even wonder who "Arafat's people" are supposed to be --
44 posted on 04/23/2002 4:26:45 AM PDT by anatolfz
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To: SJackson

Jeff Jacoby on 4/4/2002 sums up perfectly the situation in the 1993 in his article The road to war in the Mideast http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/659665/posts, original at

http://www.globe.com/dailyglobe2/094/oped/The_road_to_war_in_the_MideastP.shtml

  The leftist do-gooders, as usually, did not count the unintended consequences of their actions. Instead of slow process of working with people who lived and worked side-by-side with Israelis for many years, and who enjoyed political and economical freedom better than in any Arab country, the leftist wanted a quick and easy solution to be forced right away, they wanted somebody to do the dirty job of containing Hamaz and Hisbollah for them: they resurrected bloody Arafat. Where all that Palestinian "moderates" now? Silenced or radicalized!

With friends like Peres and Co. who needs enemies!

45 posted on 04/23/2002 5:28:46 AM PDT by Tolik
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To: dennisw
Dennis Ross worked under Bush Senior and Clinton traitor

Well, that explains it then. I wondered how somebody so decent could have been a 'toon appointee!

46 posted on 04/23/2002 7:48:19 AM PDT by texasbluebell
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To: SJackson
bttt
47 posted on 04/23/2002 8:24:57 AM PDT by PA Engineer
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To: PA Engineer
BTTT!
48 posted on 04/30/2002 7:34:55 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: dennisw
Great maps!
49 posted on 04/30/2002 7:36:48 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Bump Here it is-

"I do not believe he can end the conflict."

"We had one critical clause in this agreement, and that clause was, this is the end of the conflict."

50 posted on 05/14/2002 1:28:24 PM PDT by Kay Soze
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