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Summary of Great French Surrenders
Undergraduate Historian ^ | R.McChristian

Posted on 04/23/2002 6:53:28 AM PDT by punishingone

Great French surrenders throughout History.


TOPICS: Political Humor/Cartoons
KEYWORDS: francesurrenders
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1 posted on 04/23/2002 6:53:28 AM PDT by punishingone
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To: punishingone

"Bonjour, you cheese-eatin' surrender-monkeys."

2 posted on 04/23/2002 7:04:10 AM PDT by COBOL2Java
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To: punishingone
I personally prefer the term 'Cheese-eating surrender monkeys.' It seems to cover most of the bases of French politico-military history.
3 posted on 04/23/2002 7:04:44 AM PDT by Faeroe
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To: Faeroe
really? I thought they fought of the muslim incursion into europe during the 9th century without which you & would be speaking arabic..... but recently.......
4 posted on 04/23/2002 7:08:33 AM PDT by no need for a name
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To: punishingone
Actually, as funny as it is to pick on the French, nearly every nation in Europe has surrendered at one time or other.

And we've all lost wars (US -- Vietnam, UK -- it's worldwide empire, etc.)

5 posted on 04/23/2002 7:09:33 AM PDT by jlogajan
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To: Faeroe
Do they have a lot of French in Wisconsin? I know they like chesse and are very liberal. Sounds like Frenchmen. Nuke'em!
6 posted on 04/23/2002 7:15:51 AM PDT by StockAyatollah
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To: punishingone
Thats not entirely accurate as every French victory is ommitted. For example, where is his famed battle at Austerlitz? At any rate, the French actually did not have such a defeatist attitude and unimaginative military until after Verdun in WWI.
7 posted on 04/23/2002 7:17:17 AM PDT by KC_Conspirator
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To: punishingone
Hmmmmmm. Where would we be without the hard-fighting Admiral DeGrasse at Yorktown? How about Lafayette? And Napoleon was no pushover if I remember correctly.
8 posted on 04/23/2002 7:20:18 AM PDT by Timmy
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This thing reads like Walter Mondale's summary of 'The Failures of the Reagan Years'. Every lost battle is spun into a cowardly defeat. Every won battle or war is omitted. Even WWI, where the French held off the German's initial assault, fought heroically against the brunt of their army for four years, endured unimaginable casualties; both civilian and military, and finally forced the Germans to sue for peace, is presented as a French defeat. It makes for a cute joke, but it is silly to mock French military history as a series of embarassments. Might as well mock the Germans' "cowardice" at Stalingrad or the Italian "surrender monkeys" at Cannae.
9 posted on 04/23/2002 7:29:14 AM PDT by Calvin Coolidge
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To: jlogajan
Perhaps a review of terms is in order. A signed treaty ending hostilities is much different that the typical French belly-up, weapons down, march to the sea and shell the hospitals as you leave the harbor surrender. "Cheese-eating surrender monkeys" is quite accurate.

HOWEVER, I do have respect for the Legion Etrangere, but they are a different type of monkey.

10 posted on 04/23/2002 7:29:34 AM PDT by Khurkris
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To: StockAyatollah
Do they have a lot of French in Wisconsin? I know they like chesse and are very liberal. Sounds like Frenchmen. Nuke'em!

Birthplace of the GOP?!?!?! Bite your tongue:)

11 posted on 04/23/2002 7:39:12 AM PDT by GypsyBob
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To: jlogajan
I don't think you can legitimately claim that the U.S. lost the war in Vietnam. We never suffered a battlefield defeat and our nation was never attacked and occupied. At worst, I think you could say we made a tactical (and ungraceful) retreat.
12 posted on 04/23/2002 7:45:38 AM PDT by Hootowl
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To: jlogajan
We didn't "lose" the Vietnam War ... we just quit fighting it. Most Vietnam Vets (including myself) are offended by that myth.
13 posted on 04/23/2002 7:48:40 AM PDT by clamper1797
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To: clamper1797
We probably didn't have to lose the Vietnam war. But we did lose it.
14 posted on 04/23/2002 7:50:29 AM PDT by jlogajan
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To: jlogajan
And we've all lost wars (US -- Vietnam, ...

A better example would be (US - The War Between the States...
15 posted on 04/23/2002 7:51:27 AM PDT by balrog666
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To: jlogajan
BRAVO SIERRA
16 posted on 04/23/2002 7:51:38 AM PDT by clamper1797
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Comment #17 Removed by Moderator

To: clamper1797
Okay, you're the type that needs to think we won a glorious victory in Vietnam. Yes, yes, of course. And you are king of the universe -- and all the Hollywood starlets want to marry you -- and you may have already won the 10 billion dollar Publisher's Clearing House sweepstakes ...

The rest of us see that Vietnam fell into the enemy hands -- a defeat for us.

18 posted on 04/23/2002 7:54:16 AM PDT by jlogajan
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To: Hootowl
The German nation was never attacked or occupied in WWI, but the Germans still lost that war. Napoleon never suffered a battlefield defeat in 1812, but that campaign still must be regarded as a losing one. And of course, the British were never attacked or occupied during the American Revolutionary War, but they still lost that one. By the same token, America defined its war objectives in Vietnam as the establishment of a capitalist, democratic, Vietnamese state. We failed to achieve this goal, and by that definition 'lost' the war.
19 posted on 04/23/2002 7:55:45 AM PDT by Calvin Coolidge
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To: jlogajan
Did we sign a surrender? ...
are we or were we occupied by the North Vietnamese?
Do we now speak Vietnamese?
Do we all now live in communes?
Is our government now overseen by the Vietnamese?
We also pulled out of Bosnia (kinda) Does that mean we lost that "war" too. Losing a war requires surrender. If we wanted too we could have turned North Vietnam into a glass parking lot. Voluntarily pulling out of a conflict is not "losing" a war
20 posted on 04/23/2002 7:59:01 AM PDT by clamper1797
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To: Moderatz
"It was the French Fleet under Compte de Grasse who stood down the Royal Navy which was trying to resupply Cornwallis at Yorktown, allowing Washington to win."

"Stood down"? Stood in its way, more realistically, and allowed the British Admiral to lose the battle by strictly obeying the Fleet Fighting Instructions directing a line of battle engagement instead of a melee attack in the manner that Nelson would have handled it.

What the French were is not what the French are now .. virulently anti-American, unwashed, and deserving of the sobriquet of "cheese-eating surrender monkeys".

21 posted on 04/23/2002 7:59:55 AM PDT by BlueLancer
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To: COBOL2Java
in the recent simpsons episode where Lisa portrays Joan of Arc, she and her family have the following conversation:

HOMER: You said the Lord told you to lead the French army to WHAT???
LISA: Victory
HOMER: We're french! we don't even have a word for that!

then there's the episode where Homer goes to work for a James Bond-style villian as he's preparing his superweapon of destruction.

HANK SCORPIO: By the way, Homer, which is your least favorite country? Italy, or France?
HOMER: Umm... France.
SCORPIO: Heh heh heh. No one ever says Italy.

22 posted on 04/23/2002 8:03:34 AM PDT by jude24
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To: KC_Conspirator
The French, mindful of their historical place in the history of European affairs took thier own path subsiequently to the Berlin Blockade. Wishing to make their way to being taken as a major player in the Nuclear Age, they undermined the efforts of the US in the cold war to an extent that made our alliance in the NATO pact a difficult one at times.

We need to remember that France was the true birthplace of "the left" and its history, while tied with ours in many ways in the American Revolution and in WWI, is filled with a completly different heritage of liberty.

23 posted on 04/23/2002 8:03:45 AM PDT by KC Burke
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To: jlogajan
My first response would have been deleted. Glad I backed out, and waited a moment before trying again.

The process was called 'peace with honor' and 'vietnamization', gradually removing our troops while allowing the Vietnamese to determine their own future. It was the Vietnamese who did not have the cojones, the will and dedication to win, who lost.

However, Vietnam was just a battle in the greater war against communsist domination. This battle contributed to weakening the greater enemy, who was ultimately defeated. I contend that we won the battles of Vietnam and we won the war against communism.

24 posted on 04/23/2002 8:05:31 AM PDT by 68 grunt
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To: jlogajan
I prefer to think of Viet Nam as well as Korea as battles we lost in the Cold War which ultimately was a victory.
25 posted on 04/23/2002 8:11:41 AM PDT by LisaFab
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Comment #26 Removed by Moderator

To: 68 grunt;LisaFab
I think we did win the wider struggle against Soviet communism. If you want to call Vietnam a battle in that struggle, I have no problem with that. We did lose that particular battle.

But it is also correct to call it its own war, and we did lose that too.

27 posted on 04/23/2002 8:14:16 AM PDT by jlogajan
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To: Moderatz
Q. How many Frenchman does it take to defend their country?

A. No one knows. They've never done it before.
28 posted on 04/23/2002 8:17:21 AM PDT by jimbo123
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To: 68 grunt
We did not achieve our original military objectives in Vietnam. As it became clear that these original objectives were unattainable; we defined a series of progressively less ambitious objectives. This does not mean that withdraw of all our forces while the country was overrun by the NVA constitutes a victory.

In a sense, we lost the war but won the campaign. In the same manner, the British lost the war of American Independence, but ultimately prevailed in the global power struggle versus France and Spain.

I don't mean to denigrate the valour of our armed forces serving in Vietnam in any way. My father served three tours; in 66, 69, and 72; as an Air Force pilot. I would never doubt his courage, just as I would never doubt the courage of the French who died at Borodino or the Germans at Kursk. Still, they lost.

29 posted on 04/23/2002 8:17:44 AM PDT by Calvin Coolidge
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To: StockAyatollah
Do they have a lot of French in Wisconsin? I know they like chesse and are very liberal. Sounds like Frenchmen. Nuke'em!

Yes, there are a lot of French in Wisconsin, but they tend to get beat up a lot by the Irish.

30 posted on 04/23/2002 8:17:51 AM PDT by powderhorn
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To: Moderatz
"The French are civilized, sophisticated people. I spent many happy layovers there."

You'd have a hard time establishing the former and, as to the latter, better you than I.

31 posted on 04/23/2002 8:21:11 AM PDT by BlueLancer
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To: jimbo123
Tell that to the four million Frenchmen who died defending their country in 1914-1918. Or the hundreds of thousands who died defending their country in 1814. Or the peasants and artillerymen who held off the Prussians in 1793. History did not begin in 1940.
32 posted on 04/23/2002 8:21:47 AM PDT by Calvin Coolidge
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To: jlogajan
ESADMF
33 posted on 04/23/2002 8:30:44 AM PDT by 68 grunt
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Comment #34 Removed by Moderator

To: jlogajan
You can't lose a war you never got a chance to fight. Anyway, Viet Nam was never a war it was a "police action" even though I get to join the VFW because of it.
35 posted on 04/23/2002 8:36:26 AM PDT by mushroom
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To: mushroom
You're saying you can't count it as a loss if it is because the leaders screwed up. Huh?
36 posted on 04/23/2002 8:37:48 AM PDT by jlogajan
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To: 68 grunt
However, Vietnam was just a battle in the greater war against communsist domination. This battle contributed to weakening the greater enemy, who was ultimately defeated. I contend that we won the battles of Vietnam and we won the war against communism.

AMEN

BTW .... Welcome home brother

37 posted on 04/23/2002 8:40:34 AM PDT by clamper1797
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To: COBOL2Java
You mean like this?


38 posted on 04/23/2002 8:42:32 AM PDT by Bloody Sam Roberts
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To: Moderatz
Sorry, but Graves positioned his ships according to the Fighting Instructions, intent on engaging DeGrasse in a standard line of battle engagement. Due to the winds and the slow formation of the French line of battle, the engagement was never accomplished and Graves sailed away, leaving Cornwallis to his fate.

Had Graves engaged the French fleet in a squadron or melee attack as they straggled out of the Chesapeake Bay, past the Capes, it would have been a massacre and the French Fleet would have been bottled up inside the Bay.

Sorry, but I disagree with your assessment that the French fleet "won" anything. The British Admiral, through lack of energy and initiative, forfeited his advantages and abandoned the field.

39 posted on 04/23/2002 8:42:57 AM PDT by BlueLancer
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Comment #40 Removed by Moderator

To: clamper1797; jlogajan
What clamper said. We just let the Vietnamese people have what they evidently wanted - Communist tyranny.
41 posted on 04/23/2002 9:00:22 AM PDT by ncson
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To: Moderatz
Had it not been for the French, there would be no USA.

Probably true. The French bankrolled much of the American Revolution...which pretty much bankrupted them. When the war was over, instead of opening up our lands for French developers we shut the Frenchies out and made our primary trade deals with the Brits (who, of course, would be less demanding, considering the circumstances). Due to the really bad economic situation in France (thanks to America) the Frenchies beheaded a great many of their leaders. French would-be aristocrates still take umbrage with Americans for taking english as our primary language instead of french.

Things have gone down hill for France ever since the American Revolution. Their last great achievement was the invention of french toast.

42 posted on 04/23/2002 9:01:08 AM PDT by powderhorn
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To: 68 grunt
However, Vietnam was just a battle in the greater war against communist domination. This battle contributed to weakening the greater enemy, who was ultimately defeated. I contend that we won the battles of Vietnam and we won the war against communism.

I agree 100% with this view. The Vietnam war helped bleed and weaken the USSR and Red China. Communism fell in Russia but unfortunately still clings to power in Red China thanks to capitalists for the most part. Gee, what would Marx think about that? Vietnam vet should be given credit for the defeat of communism, world-wide.

43 posted on 04/23/2002 9:01:30 AM PDT by Walkin Man
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To: Walkin Man
Vietnam vets should be given credit for the defeat of communism, world-wide.

What a nice thing to say. Thank you, Walkin' Man. Many of us like to feel we contributed.

44 posted on 04/23/2002 9:22:08 AM PDT by 68 grunt
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To: jlogajan
I'm saying a war is when you do everything possible to kill the other side until they see things your way. The US military fought the Viet Nam "police action" with one hand and three fingers tied behind their backs, politicians looking over their shoulders, and strategies designed to win over public opinion. Makes me wonder if there wasn't a Clinton somewhere running the whole damn mess.

The objective of war is the death of the enemy not winning the hearts and minds of your supposed allies.

Besides, we could have won that conflict with the flick of two switches. That we chose not to do so proves that this wasn't a war just a sorry piece of shit shootout that we never intended to fully fight from day one.

45 posted on 04/23/2002 9:23:19 AM PDT by mushroom
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To: jlogajan
The rest of us see that Vietnam fell into the enemy hands -- a defeat for us.

Actually, no. It was defeat for the South Vietnamese army.

Which (dragging us back on-topic) was originally created by the French, who surrendered the area to the natives back in 1954....

46 posted on 04/23/2002 9:26:11 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: clamper1797
Thats what my father says and he was just a doctor.
47 posted on 04/23/2002 10:09:12 AM PDT by weikel
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To: r9etb
Well, I won't enter the main argument about Vietnam, but to be fair to the South Vietnamese, they were doing reasonably well until JFK ordered the assassination of their leader, Diem. That was a major turning-point for the worse and was what chiefly led to our own direct involvement in the war as participants rather than advisers. Maybe South Vietnam couldn't have withstood the North Vietnamese onslaught anyway, but we'll never know for sure.
48 posted on 04/23/2002 10:37:09 AM PDT by Cicero
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To: punishingone
what's with all the French apologists? Name one battle they won in the 20th century.
49 posted on 04/23/2002 10:45:11 AM PDT by bfree
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Comment #50 Removed by Moderator


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